Mike Brown and Offensive linemen....some random history

[fredtoast]

(09-24-2021, 02:08 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote:  The other was fed up with us and retired. 

Link to source?

[bengalguy71]

(09-24-2021, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand your point.

Did you read my post.  For the first 24 years of the Mike Brown Era the Bengals almost never took O-linemen in the first two rounds, but over the last 7 drafts they have tripled their rate of drafting O-linemen high.

In the first 24 years they never missed on a O-lineman with a high draft pick, but over the last 7 drafts they have missed more than they have hit.

So how does Mike Brown being "the only constant" explain the dramatic shift?

And yet, still 9 sacks in 2 games! I can definitely see it’s paying off.

Still no playoff win GB, year after year after year. Maybe this year?

If not, certainly 2022?

[Bengalstripes9]

(09-24-2021, 05:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Link to source?

Nobody really knows why Boling retired. I would assume being the only good lineman on a bad team had something to do with it. If he still had Whit and Zeitler blocking with him (was part of a better line), I'm not so sure he retires. But hey, I don't know any more than anyone else on the subject. I just assume playing on a losing team isn't as fun as playing on a winning one. When playing the game isn't fun and you're the only guy worth a damn in your position group, I'm sure that factors into his decision making. But I could be wrong.

Regardless, we hit on 3 draft picks. We had 3 quality lineman we could have kept around to be part of a significantly better offensive line than we've seen the past 5 years. We chose to let two of them walk in favor of players that hadn't proved a thing (other than they weren't good enough). Then a year or so later, the 3rd lineman that was worth a damn retires. 

We have to draft better. We have to manage better too (and coach better for that matter).

[fredtoast]

(09-24-2021, 08:15 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: And yet, still 9 sacks in 2 games!  I can definitely see it’s paying off.

Still no playoff win GB, year after year after year.  Maybe this year?

If not, certainly 2022?

Do you even know what we are discussing in this thread?

Do you just have a standard "We haven't won a playoff game in 30 years" post that you cut and past into every single thread no matter what the topic?

[samhain]

(09-24-2021, 08:19 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Nobody really knows why Boling retired. I would assume being the only good lineman on a bad team had something to do with it. If he still had Whit and Zeitler blocking with him (was part of a better line), I'm not so sure he retires. But hey, I don't know any more than anyone else on the subject. I just assume playing on a losing team isn't as fun as playing on a winning one. When playing the game isn't fun and you're the only guy worth a damn in your position group, I'm sure that factors into his decision making. But I could be wrong.

Regardless, we hit on 3 draft picks. We had 3 quality lineman we could have kept around to be part of a significantly better offensive line than we've seen the past 5 years. We chose to let two of them walk in favor of players that hadn't proved a thing (other than they weren't good enough). Then a year or so later, the 3rd lineman that was worth a damn retires. 

We have to draft better. We have to manage better too (and coach better for that matter).

He retired because of a serious medical issue and a desire to be at home with his kids.  He was tired of the grind of the NFL and had no financial need to put himself through it anymore.  From what I understand, he does not miss it one bit.  

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(09-24-2021, 08:19 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Nobody really knows why Boling retired. I would assume being the only good lineman on a bad team had something to do with it. If he still had Whit and Zeitler blocking with him (was part of a better line), I'm not so sure he retires. But hey, I don't know any more than anyone else on the subject. I just assume playing on a losing team isn't as fun as playing on a winning one. When playing the game isn't fun and you're the only guy worth a damn in your position group, I'm sure that factors into his decision making. But I could be wrong.

Regardless, we hit on 3 draft picks. We had 3 quality lineman we could have kept around to be part of a significantly better offensive line than we've seen the past 5 years. We chose to let two of them walk in favor of players that hadn't proved a thing (other than they weren't good enough). Then a year or so later, the 3rd lineman that was worth a damn retires. 

We have to draft better. We have to manage better too (and coach better for that matter).

He had blood clots. Everyone knows that lol

[Benton]

Some good info, Fred. Mostly just makes me sad, though. We used to do really well at developing later round guys or finding value off the street. The last several years we've spent a bunch of picks , including several high ones, and we still don't have a decent starting line,let alone depth.

[Bengalstripes9]

(09-25-2021, 07:50 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: He had blood clots. Everyone knows that lol

I assumed it was some type of health issue. The last 5 years, we still had 3 quality lineman we could have had under contract for most of those years. That would have have made our line a lot better than it was. That's my point. Gotta manage the picks you hit on properly. They failed to do that.

They also failed in the draft. They also failed coaching. It's not enough to simplify it down to just drafting better. They need to manage their assets better, as well as coach and develop players better. 

I hope to see some of our young lineman come along well in the years to come--and see the organization turn a corner with their offensive line development. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(09-25-2021, 09:20 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: The last 5 years, we still had 3 quality lineman we could have had under contract for most of those years. That would have have made our line a lot better than it was. That's my point. Gotta manage the picks you hit on properly. They failed to do that.

They also failed in the draft. They also failed coaching. It's not enough to simplify it down to just drafting better. They need to manage their assets better, as well as coach and develop players better. 

I hope to see some of our young lineman come along well in the years to come--and see the organization turn a corner with their offensive line development. 

Don't care.

All I was posting was that Boling had blood clots and that was announced literally as soon as he retired.

Not to be a dick, but I will be a dick lol.

[fredtoast]

(09-24-2021, 08:19 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Nobody really knows why Boling retired. I would assume being the only good lineman on a bad team had something to do with it. If he still had Whit and Zeitler blocking with him (was part of a better line), I'm not so sure he retires. But hey, I don't know any more than anyone else on the subject. I just assume playing on a losing team isn't as fun as playing on a winning one. When playing the game isn't fun and you're the only guy worth a damn in your position group, I'm sure that factors into his decision making. But I could be wrong.

Regardless, we hit on 3 draft picks. We had 3 quality lineman we could have kept around to be part of a significantly better offensive line than we've seen the past 5 years. We chose to let two of them walk in favor of players that hadn't proved a thing (other than they weren't good enough). Then a year or so later, the 3rd lineman that was worth a damn retires. 

We have to draft better. We have to manage better too (and coach better for that matter).

Here is a little tip for posting on a message board.  When you just make up stuff in your head and post it as a fact it damages your credibility.  You may have some other legitimate points but posting a lie makes it hard to take the rest of the stuff you say seriously.

Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, but you can't post it a a fact.  It just exposes your bias and disregard for the truth.

[Bengalstripes9]

(09-26-2021, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a little tip for posting on a message board.  When you just make up stuff in your head and post it as a fact it damages your credibility.  You may have some other legitimate points but posting a lie makes it hard to take the rest of the stuff you say seriously.

Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, but you can't post it a a fact.  It just exposes your bias and disregard for the truth.

Ouch. What did I say that was a lie? Did I say that injury was not the ultimate reason for him retiring? No. I just alluded to him being on a losing team on a terrible line might have something to do with it. I didn’t say it was the ultimate reason.

Edit:

I hold the opinion that most of the time there are a number of reasons that weigh into peoples’ decision making. Maybe I didn’t do the best job of clarifying that in my previous post. I wasn’t trying to say that being on a lousy team was the sole reason for Boling retiring. I was just trying to argue that it could have factored in.

I’m a pretty open minded guy. I say things how I see them. But I’m open to new information. I’m not right all the time, and welcome people correcting me. I’m not always perfect in terms of explaining my point of view either. But I like hearing other perspectives, and continually weigh multiple points of view. I wish more people were that way. I wish more people could express their opinion without being an ass about it as well. But the world is as it is. Can’t let it get you down. All you can control is yourself, your reactions, etc. nobody is perfect.

As I stated to you previously, I respect you. Carry on Fred. Enjoy the win and have a good one (thumbs up)

[Bengalstripes9]

In short, sorry for oversimplifying the Boling situation and giving the Bengals too much blame. I do still hold the assumption that being on a terrible line and playing for an owner that seemingly undervalued the position group weighed in on his decision somewhat. Of course I have nothing but assumptions to back this claim up.

That said, for the past 5 years we could have had a legit tackle, a legit guard, and another legit guard (boling) for half of those years at least (if so much wasn’t on his shoulders maybe injuries don’t become as big of an issue as they were too). That is a decent starting point to a good offensive line. Most teams with above average lines only have a couple good lineman, and then fill out the rest of their line with average/ above average players.

All I’m saying is if we managed what we had better, we could have put together a better line. Show me why this assumption is wrong. I don’t think drafting better is the only thing we have to do better. Need to coach and manage better too.

This all said, maybe it was good that we had a poor line, because it allowed us to draft some premier players like Burrow and Chase. I like the young players we picked this year and hope to see them become big contributors. Carmen had a good game today, other than the penalty.

[bengalguy71]

(09-26-2021, 06:38 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Ouch. What did I say that was a lie? Did I say that injury was not the ultimate reason for him retiring? No. I just alluded to him being on a losing team on a terrible line might have something to do with it. I didn’t say it was the ultimate reason.

Edit:

I hold the opinion that most of the time there are a number of reasons that weigh into peoples’ decision making. Maybe I didn’t do the best job of clarifying that in my previous post. I wasn’t trying to say that being on a lousy team was the sole reason for Boling retiring. I was just trying to argue that it could have factored in.

I’m a pretty open minded guy. I say things how I see them. But I’m open to new information. I’m not right all the time, and welcome people correcting me. I’m not always perfect in terms of explaining my point of view either. But I like hearing other perspectives, and continually weigh multiple points of view. I wish more people were that way. I wish more people could express their opinion without being an ass about it as well. But the world is as it is. Can’t let it get you down. All you can control is yourself, your reactions, etc. nobody is perfect.

As I stated to you previously, I respect you. Carry on Fred. Enjoy the win and have a good one (thumbs up)

Haven't you been here long enough to know that Fred GB Toast KNOWS EVERYTHING FOOTBALL?!?!

[Bengalstripes9]

(09-26-2021, 07:59 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Haven't you been here long enough to know that Fred GB Toast KNOWS EVERYTHING FOOTBALL?!?!

I wasn’t trying to get into an argument with Fred. I was just trying to express my opinion. I really don’t care for arguing or butting heads. People tend to get entrenched in their point of views (when arguing) and ignore other peoples’ valid points. This type of discourse is very off putting to me, as it’s not fun for anyone. I like to discuss things—you know, have a give and take kind of conversation where people hear one another out. No one person has all the answers in my opinion, which is why I think it’s wrong that schools teach an argumentative style of debate. It’s much better to discuss things, learn one another’s point of view, etc, before making a final opinion on any given issue. The beauty of this method is that people can change their mind and evolve their understanding of a topic when provided new points of views and information.

[fredtoast]

(09-26-2021, 08:11 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I wasn’t trying to get into an argument with Fred. I was just trying to express my opinion. I really don’t care for arguing or butting heads. People tend to get entrenched in their point of views (when arguing) and ignore other peoples’ valid points. This type of discourse is very off putting to me, as it’s not fun for anyone. I like to discuss things—you know, have a give and take kind of conversation where people hear one another out. No one person has all the answers in my opinion, which is why I think it’s wrong that schools teach an argumentative style of debate. It’s much better to discuss things, learn one another’s point of view, etc, before making a final opinion on any given issue. The beauty of this method is that people can change their mind and evolve their understanding of a topic when provided new points of views and information.

This is great.  I love to hear this.  So now that you have heard all the facts I guess you are willing to admit that you were wrong when you said "No one knows exactly why Boling retired?"

I mean it was announced in the news that that was why he was retiring.

The timing of the announcement makes no sense if he was retiring because he was "fed up without he Bengals".

And finally, even though he is retired and has no reason to keep his opinion to himself there has never been any single comment at any ime from Him or his family or his agent that implied that he was "fed up with the Bengals".

You homily about being open minded and listening to all points of view sounds nice until some teacher tell your child that the earth is flat and that it was created by a giant spaghetti monster.

At some points we have to call out people who propose opinions without anything to back them up other than their own self-serving preconceived notions.

[bengalguy71]

(09-27-2021, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is great.  I love to hear this.  So now that you have heard all the facts I guess you are willing to admit that you were wrong when you said "No one knows exactly why Boling retired?"

I mean it was announced in the news that that was why he was retiring.

The timing of the announcement makes no sense if he was retiring because he was "fed up without he Bengals".

And finally, even though he is retired and has no reason to keep his opinion to himself there has never been any single comment at any ime from Him or his family or his agent that implied that he was "fed up with the Bengals".

You homily about being open minded and listening to all points of view sounds nice until some teacher tell your child that the earth is flat and that it was created by a giant spaghetti monster.

At some points we have to call out people who propose opinions without anything to back them up other than their own self-serving preconceived notions.

The defense rests Bengalstripes9!

[Bengalstripes9]

(09-27-2021, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is great.  I love to hear this.  So now that you have heard all the facts I guess you are willing to admit that you were wrong when you said "No one knows exactly why Boling retired?"

I mean it was announced in the news that that was why he was retiring.

The timing of the announcement makes no sense if he was retiring because he was "fed up without he Bengals".

And finally, even though he is retired and has no reason to keep his opinion to himself there has never been any single comment at any ime from Him or his family or his agent that implied that he was "fed up with the Bengals".

You homily about being open minded and listening to all points of view sounds nice until some teacher tell your child that the earth is flat and that it was created by a giant spaghetti monster.

At some points we have to call out people who propose opinions without anything to back them up other than their own self-serving preconceived notions.

Fred. Relax. Did you see my previous post where I apologized for blaming the Bengals too much?

I didn’t see anywhere on Bengals.com a reasoning for why he retired. I was under the impression that no reasoning was announced—but just assumed it was injury related. I did think that being on a bad line and team weighed into the decision, which is why I got carried away in saying he was fed up with the Bengals.

What does homily mean? Is there a spaghetti monster? Should I be scared? Will it attack me?

You continue to focus on one tiny piece of my argument, and ignore the good points I made about wanting the Bengals to learn from their failures in managing the assets they do have properly. You can’t let players go and assume you’ll just be able to throw a dart at a chalkboard (the draft), and come up with a winner. They should actually wait for a young draft pick to beat out a vet before letting the proven player go. Just my opinion.

I brought up the stuff about arguing verses discussing because I don’t feel any discussion happening between the two of us. You are arguing your point to death and not listening to any of my valid points. I have conceded that I was overstated the Boling issue and that’s all you want to talk about. I’m just not into the court of law type of arguing. I’d rather discuss things openly as I don’t believe one single person has all the answers—nor do I believe that things are always black and white. There’s a lot of grey in the world and multiple ways of looking at things. We can only narrow in on the truth of any subject by listening to all viewpoints.

My main point I was trying to make was that the draft alone isn’t the only area the Bengals need to improve in terms of putting together a good line. It may be the most crucial part, but management is key and a big area where they have failed in the recent past. Say they hit on some of these young draft picks in recent years, they can’t just let these players go after their rookie deals if there isn’t a player as good as them on the depth chart. We’ll be in the exact same situation as 2016 or 2017 (whatever the year was when they let Whit and Zeitler walk). It’s baffling that you spend a 1st round pick on a player and don’t have a plan in place for that player to be a 10 year starter if you hit on the selection. You cannot manage a team this way with any degree of success. You might as well select another player in the 1st round if he’s only going to play for you for 4 years.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-25-2021, 11:38 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Don't care.

All I was posting was that Boling had blood clots and that was announced literally as soon as he retired.

Not to be a dick, but I will be a dick lol.

You definitely aren't the nicest Canadian lol

[Bengalstripes9]

Aside from letting a successful 1st round draft pick walk after 4 years (zeitler), they let whit walk when he still had 4-5 good years left in him. Not only did they let him walk, they had no adequate replacement for him. They had a hope and a prayer that the guy below him would pan out. The player below him needs to prove he’s at least close to up to the task before handing him the job.

So my point is this: even with 2 good players on a line, they could have put together an above average line. Throw in Boling for 3/5 of the past 5 years and you can fill in the rest of the line from there. It’s rare a team has 5 pro bowlers on one line. It’s usually one or two at the most on a good line. Of course there are elite lines that have no holes. But most good lines have a couple really good players and then a few average to above average players.

It’s not enough to hit on the draft picks. They have to develop them (Pollack should help improve in this aspect), and you need to retain the good players long enough until you have someone younger and cheaper that can prove that they are as capable as the more expensive vet.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-27-2021, 09:34 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Aside from letting a successful 1st round draft pick walk after 4 years (zeitler), they let whit walk when he still had 4-5 good years left in him. Not only did they let him walk, they had no adequate replacement for him. They had a hope and a prayer that the guy below him would pan out. The player below him needs to prove he’s at least close to up to the task before handing him the job.

So my point is this: even with 2 good players on a line, they could have put together an above average line. Throw in Boling for 3/5 of the past 5 years and you can fill in the rest of the line from there. It’s rare a team has 5 pro bowlers on one line. It’s usually one or two at the most on a good line. Of course there are elite lines that have no holes. But most good lines have a couple really good players and then a few average to above average players.

It’s not enough to hit on the draft picks. They have to develop them (Pollack should help improve in this aspect), and you need to retain the good players long enough until you have someone younger and cheaper that can prove that they are as capable as the more expensive vet.

Yeah, the main reason we have sucked the last 4 years or so is because we let Whit go to the Rams and we drafted badly.

It is starting to turn around though with what I believe to be a couple good Drafts in a row along with good Free Agent pickups.

Reader, Bell, Ogunjobi, Hendrickson, Hilton, Awuzie were great grabs along with our Draft picks IMO.

Logan Wilson and Davis-Gaither look like a great young duo of Linebackers man.