Minimum wage debate

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 04:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Rep.

Technology is coming to take jobs even if we keep wages low.

And we may need more plumbers and electricians, but not on the scale of people who will lose jobs to robots and computers.

There is a huge coming need for service technicians for these technologies. If I was going to school now I'd be working to get some knowledge on how to service technical products. 

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2019, 04:40 PM)Au165 Wrote: There is a huge coming need for service technicians for these technologies. If I was going to school now I'd be working to get some knowledge on how to service technical products. 

Correct, but one person can service 100 machines that replaced people.

Like when automakers went to automated assembly lines.  They only need a small fraction of the workforce to keep the automated stuff running compared to the number of people who lost jobs.

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Correct, but one person can service 100 machines that replaced people.

Like when automakers went to automated assembly lines.  They only need a small fraction of the workforce to keep the automated stuff running compared to the number of people who lost jobs.

Not sure on 1 to 100, but yes that is kind of the point to minimize human intervention. 

When we are really screwed is when the robots can fix themselves, I heard of a really cool company called Skynet working on this...

[Beaker]

Just to add to the discussion, here is an article from CNN about Bernie and the $15/hr wage plan. A similar plan in S. Korea really had a negative impact on small and medium sized businesses.

https://www.ccn.com/bernie-sanders-minimum-wage-plan-wont-help-poor-ask-south-korea

[Nebuchadnezzar]

How will those who receive government assistance or SSI disability be treated...will they get "Raises"?

[Au165]

Another issue with an abrupt raise is what it does to the employment market just above minimum wage. If I am making $16.00 right now and over night everyone else is making $15.00 my wage has essentially been slashed with the inflation that will accompany the new increase. Any big raise needs to occur over time so that not only the companies can adjust but also those who are at a level close to the new wage can adjust.

With that said, I mentioned before that technology will slowly come in to offset such a move and it will create a job crunch. The slower introduction will allow funding to be established for retraining to try and stave off an unemployment jump that could come with automation. In the end though you won't be able to save everyone because of capitalism as a whole. One of the flaws of capitalism is for there to be a top and a middle there has to be a bottom, the key is to use social programs to make the bottom as livable as possible. I'm not arguing that we can't do better, we can, but we will never get to a point where someone isn't struggling at the bottom and that is a reality people have to accept. We shouldn't forget about those people but we have to keep things framed in perspective.

[*Nately120*]

(03-05-2019, 08:56 PM)Beaker Wrote: Just to add to the discussion, here is an article from CNN about Bernie and the $15/hr wage plan. A similar plan in S. Korea really had a negative impact on small and medium sized businesses.

https://www.ccn.com/bernie-sanders-minimum-wage-plan-wont-help-poor-ask-south-korea

That'll teach small and medium-sized business owners for not working harder and becoming large businesses.

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2019, 08:56 PM)Beaker Wrote: Just to add to the discussion, here is an article from CNN about Bernie and the $15/hr wage plan. A similar plan in S. Korea really had a negative impact on small and medium sized businesses.

https://www.ccn.com/bernie-sanders-minimum-wage-plan-wont-help-poor-ask-south-korea

The Korean economy and society is so different from ours it is hard to make direct comparisons.

Also this study claimed that minimum wage increase was the reason college graduates could not get jobs.  That makes no sense because college graduates should not be getting minimum wage jobs.

Production is driven by demand not supply.  If the demand for the service/product does not change then businesses will not cut back on production and go out of business because of an increase in wages.  Does MacDonalds cut back on how many hamburgers they make when the price of beef goes up?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-04-2019, 08:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I get it, there are some professions that just don't pay nearly what they are worth.  I discovered the example that you just mentioned, when I used to serve as a volunteer fire fighter.

However, some trades are in such serious need that there are programs paying tuition, and giving job placement for apprenticeship, while going to night school.  My brother-in-law, up in Ohio, found one of those programs.  He's working/studying HVAC.  Job started at $14.50/hr with full insurance after 90 days, plus paid tuition to Lima Technical College.  He's still with it, a year later, and has gotten two raises along the way.

That is just one example, for sure.  The program he stumbled on had about 5 options, and HVAC was the one that appealed to him, most.

He better be glad he doesn't live in a right to work state.  There were similar benefits here, then they did away with scale pay, next was salaried employees making a "floor wage", or being paid OT accordingly, and now there is little to offer over 10 bucks and hour, and you pay any necessary education.  Not only is not good for those that choose to stay here, but it is obviously running skilled, competent tradesmen to states like Ohio.

I don't get the belief in that way of doing things.....stupid if you ask me.  The program you refer to is not only an investment in people, but it's an investment for the community as a whole with competent tradesmen.  Trades are an excellent way to support yourself. Not to mention, how much money are you saving cutting 5 bucks off the pay when the workforce is so incompetent that you're always coming behind them and fixing mistakes?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-05-2019, 10:04 AM)Au165 Wrote: I said this a while back and people fought with me about it, mainly that tech "can't" replace all these things. Computers, machines, etc are about to replace a huge amount of unskilled labor in the next decade. Self driving cars coming will impact taxis (Uber), trucking, delivery, etc. Kiosks eliminating cashiers, fast foot workers, retail jobs. Continued improvements and cost reductions on machinery will continue to hit manufacturing through more automation.

The reality is technology is, and has always been, the biggest threat to "American jobs". This idea is foreign and many will hate it, but those in the tech sector know it's coming, there will have to be a tax on companies who use technology to replace workers in some shape down the road. It'll have to be tough enough to make them think twice before removing the human, but manageable enough not to stifle innovation. That tax will then have to be used to prop up displaced workers through retraining and education

I think as a country we need to get out in front of this now. I have heard about "moonshot" ideas a lot lately, but I think the biggest one we should focus on is free job training. I'm not saying free college because I think this is a misguided attempt to solve a problem that we have created that isn't real. Everyone doesn't need to go to college, everyone should however have an opportunity to be trained in some sort of skilled labor. I'd like to see all trades school, as well as some tech based jobs, be 100% free to pursue.

Any major shift in minimum wage needs to be accompanied with a plan to help get those people out of minimum wage jobs or else we are just kicking the same can down the road.

Agree with all of this.

As to the bolded, I have a friend that is a principal of such a school.  They teach tech, trades, and manufacturing. I've toured the school with him, it's a very neat concept and has good participation.  His father was my industrial arts teacher in middle school, and he studied tech ed in college.  It's been a very good fit for him as well.  I really enjoyed my time on the campus.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-06-2019, 04:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: He better be glad he doesn't live in a right to work state.  There were similar benefits here, then they did away with scale pay, next was salaried employees making a "floor wage", or being paid OT accordingly, and now there is little to offer over 10 bucks and hour, and you pay any necessary education.  Not only is not good for those that choose to stay here, but it is obviously running skilled, competent tradesmen to states like Ohio.

I don't get the belief in that way of doing things.....stupid if you ask me.  The program you refer to is not only an investment in people, but it's an investment for the community as a whole with competent tradesmen.  Trades are an excellent way to support yourself.  Not to mention, how much money are you saving cutting 5 bucks off the pay when the workforce is so incompetent that you're always coming behind them and fixing mistakes?

Actually, Ohio does have "right to work" laws.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/ohio-law/ohio-right-to-work-laws.html


The thing is, he got tired of bouncing from shop to shop as a non-credentialed auto mechanic, so he went to work at Honda through one of the temp services.  He actually was making better money doing that, than what he started at in HCAC.  He waited around for about 2 years or so, and had yet to get brought in to Honda, officially, and decided to take advantage of the program my sister discovered that he was eligible for.  Part of the program is taking academic classes, in order to fulfill the Ohio High School proficiency standards. (he dropped out after 10th grade)  

He never came out and said it, but I'm thinking that not having his HS equivalency is what was preventing him from getting hired on by Honda.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I remember when P&G was building their Olestra plant in Bond Hill down on Spring Grove. My sister in law worked for P&G, got me an application and an interview. I applied for Shipping and Recieving, fork lift operator and data entry positions, just low skilled labor type of work. 

I go in to the interview, everything is looking good, he even asked when I could start and said "Welcome aboard". As I was leaving the guys office, he looked at my application again and said, "You didn't fill out what college you went to." I said I didn't go to college and he says, "I'm sorry, you need at least two years of college to work here." 

I said, "I need two years of college to drive a fork lift?"

That was the end of my time at P&G, lol.

[Beaker]

(03-06-2019, 04:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Korean economy and society is so different from ours it is hard to make direct comparisons.

Also this study claimed that minimum wage increase was the reason college graduates could not get jobs.  That makes no sense because college graduates should not be getting minimum wage jobs.

Production is driven by demand not supply.  If the demand for the service/product does not change then businesses will not cut back on production and go out of business because of an increase in wages.  Does MacDonalds cut back on how many hamburgers they make when the price of beef goes up?

To clarify, I wasn't posting that article as a statement or rebuttal. I simply found it interesting that S. Korea had actually implemented something similar to what was being proposed, and seeing the actual outcome of the policy, not just projections or arguments about what "experts" think would happen. I do agree that the Korean economy is different than the US, but there are also similarities. So I think the info can be useful, but not definitive, in this discussion.

[Benton]

(03-06-2019, 09:04 PM)Beaker Wrote: To clarify, I wasn't posting that article as a statement or rebuttal. I simply found it interesting that S. Korea had actually implemented something similar to what was being proposed, and seeing the actual outcome of the policy, not just projections or arguments about what "experts" think would happen. I do agree that the Korean economy is different than the US, but there are also similarities. So I think the info can be useful, but not definitive, in this discussion.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=South+Korea


Personally, I don't think there's a lot of comparisons with the US and SK. Very different countries and economies. For one thing, their companies have been growing manufacturing, while we've been pushing companies out of the country in that regard. And (for wahtever reason) SK appears to be cheaper in cost of living.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2019, 07:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Actually, Ohio does have "right to work" laws.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/ohio-law/ohio-right-to-work-laws.html


The thing is, he got tired of bouncing from shop to shop as a non-credentialed auto mechanic, so he went to work at Honda through one of the temp services.  He actually was making better money doing that, than what he started at in HCAC.  He waited around for about 2 years or so, and had yet to get brought in to Honda, officially, and decided to take advantage of the program my sister discovered that he was eligible for.  Part of the program is taking academic classes, in order to fulfill the Ohio High School proficiency standards. (he dropped out after 10th grade)  

He never came out and said it, but I'm thinking that not having his HS equivalency is what was preventing him from getting hired on by Honda.

So it passed there too, eh? Maybe our state is taking more advantage of it for their pocket stuffers. It's shit here.

[Au165]

(03-06-2019, 08:03 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I remember when P&G was building their Olestra plant in Bond Hill down on Spring Grove. My sister in law worked for P&G, got me an application and an interview. I applied for Shipping and Recieving, fork lift operator and data entry positions, just low skilled labor type of work. 

I go in to the interview, everything is looking good, he even asked when I could start and said "Welcome aboard". As I was leaving the guys office, he looked at my application again and said, "You didn't fill out what college you went to." I said I didn't go to college and he says, "I'm sorry, you need at least two years of college to work here." 

I said, "I need two years of college to drive a fork lift?"

That was the end of my time at P&G, lol.

Ahh yes, the old college checkbox. It's funny, they won't actually check that you went there or ask you about anything you learned there only want to feel good knowing you spent way too much money to drink, party and go to classes occasionally. I went to college got a degree in the field I work in and use very little knowledge I actually learned. Most of what I use are things I learn on the job or through trial and error. 

[*michaelsean*]

(03-07-2019, 09:46 AM)Au165 Wrote: Ahh yes, the old college checkbox. It's funny, they won't actually check that you went there or ask you about anything you learned there only want to feel good knowing you spent way too much money to drink, party and go to classes occasionally. I went to college got a degree in the field I work in and use very little knowledge I actually learned. Most of what I use are things I learn on the job or through trial and error. 

Not only that, but you only need to have gone two years.  What the hell does that prove except that you may have bailed?

[Au165]

(03-07-2019, 09:51 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Not only that, but you only need to have gone two years.  What the hell does that prove except that you may have bailed?

You made it through all the non major courses that are basically two additional years of high school.

[Benton]

(03-06-2019, 08:03 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I remember when P&G was building their Olestra plant in Bond Hill down on Spring Grove. My sister in law worked for P&G, got me an application and an interview. I applied for Shipping and Recieving, fork lift operator and data entry positions, just low skilled labor type of work. 

I go in to the interview, everything is looking good, he even asked when I could start and said "Welcome aboard". As I was leaving the guys office, he looked at my application again and said, "You didn't fill out what college you went to." I said I didn't go to college and he says, "I'm sorry, you need at least two years of college to work here." 

I said, "I need two years of college to drive a fork lift?"

That was the end of my time at P&G, lol.

The town where I live, the economy is based around d some chemical plants all require a 4 year degree for entry level. Most of the operator jobs are literally just sitting in a chair and pushing one button if a gauge gets too high or hitting another button if it gets too low. Mist have a four year degree, but those jobs start around $25.

And people wonder why the economy is messed up. Six figures debt so you can push a button.