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(08-08-2018, 11:23 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I understand the reasons for being against right to work. I just need some clarification on who is mandating a person paying dues.
(08-09-2018, 12:44 AM)Benton Wrote: The union, which isn’t a third party, it’s the fellow workers mandates it, not the employer.
How can the union mandate it? They could negotiate for it with the employer, but if the employer doesn't allow for the dues to be mandatory then the union can't mandate it. The dues come out of the paycheck, usually, so it would require the employer to agree to it for this to occur.
This is why I say it is a free market thing. The employer has to make the decision for it. They can't deny a union the right to form, but they don't have to mandate dues to be paid.
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(08-09-2018, 09:13 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Because a job is an agreement between an employer and an employee.
And that's why I don't see a third party. The union is comprised of the employees.
If I ask my wife to have a three way with her hot friend and she responds "we have one every night... you, me, and the marriage union" I'm going to be super sad.
Quote:And this probably gets too philosophical to do on a message board, but why is there a special power in the work place to not only vote me into a group, but require something of me? That would especially be the case for a non-union shop becoming union. An employer hires me, I work and he pays me, and then I'm told we are voting for a union, and if it passes I'm in it. From where does that authority derive? How do they get to vote themselves a say in the terms of my employment?
Oh, it's not just the work place. It's anywhere with representation.
Local government, state government, federal, courts, schools (if you're a student... or don't but own property). That's part of being in a community.
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It's really hard to believe that people still think unions are bad and the free market will just make everything right if we leave it alone.
I'm not even a big union guy. I turned on them in the 80's because they refused to fight back against the rising tide of greed and corporatism that was going on. Never been in one either.
But they are a necessary balance in the labor market that have brought good things to workers that they would not have had (or at least many they would not have had so soon).
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(08-09-2018, 10:22 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: How can the union mandate it? They could negotiate for it with the employer, but if the employer doesn't allow for the dues to be mandatory then the union can't mandate it. The dues come out of the paycheck, usually, so it would require the employer to agree to it for this to occur.
This is why I say it is a free market thing. The employer has to make the decision for it. They can't deny a union the right to form, but they don't have to mandate dues to be paid.
I'm getting distracted with the 'union is a third entity' thing.
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(08-09-2018, 10:22 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: How can the union mandate it? They could negotiate for it with the employer, but if the employer doesn't allow for the dues to be mandatory then the union can't mandate it. The dues come out of the paycheck, usually, so it would require the employer to agree to it for this to occur.
This is why I say it is a free market thing. The employer has to make the decision for it. They can't deny a union the right to form, but they don't have to mandate dues to be paid.
Right so my question is if the employer agrees to withhold dues for those in the union, but does not mandate that people have to pay dues, does that mean the person doesn't have to pay dues? If so I don't understand the need for right to work laws.
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I struggle with people who say if you don't like unions and don't want to pay the dues the free market allows you to go work somewhere else, while also ignoring that the free market also allows workers who don't like their pay or working conditions to go work somewhere else.
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(08-09-2018, 09:50 AM)Au165 Wrote: We are going to go sideways with this, so I'll simply change the response I had to say...
I disagree with it's need for safety.
Anecdotal, but a favorite story of my last place of business. No union, but shows the reflection of a business and its approach to safety.
About seven years ago the company decided it could save money by turning off the lights in the pressroom during the day, as the presses only ran at night. People still make deliveries and cross the shop to get to storage, though. One wall is all windows, so it let in some light. Except it wasn't enough and it got worse when they tinted the windows to cut down on cooling costs. The floor has one giant piece of machinery (the press) and there's a dozen of so pallets, stacks of boxes, etc.
Of course, being a dark room, people going through there started tripping over stuff they couldn't see. Delivery drivers refused to go inside, so boxes stacked up out back where they would just drop them off. Employees started complaining (especially after the tint), so management decided to fix the problem: they hung a flashlight by each doorway with a sign that said "Caution".
Businesses often don't care about safety, they care about profit. There's nothing wrong or evil in that.
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(08-09-2018, 10:39 AM)Benton Wrote: Anecdotal, but a favorite story of my last place of business. No union, but shows the reflection of a business and its approach to safety.
About seven years ago the company decided it could save money by turning off the lights in the pressroom during the day, as the presses only ran at night. People still make deliveries and cross the shop to get to storage, though. One wall is all windows, so it let in some light. Except it wasn't enough and it got worse when they tinted the windows to cut down on cooling costs. The floor has one giant piece of machinery (the press) and there's a dozen of so pallets, stacks of boxes, etc.
Of course, being a dark room, people going through there started tripping over stuff they couldn't see. Delivery drivers refused to go inside, so boxes stacked up out back where they would just drop them off. Employees started complaining (especially after the tint), so management decided to fix the problem: they hung a flashlight by each doorway with a sign that said "Caution".
Businesses often don't care about safety, they care about profit. There's nothing wrong or evil in that.
Did anyone report it to OSHA, you know the proper authority for such workplace violations, that despite your views on them, is funded and has jurisdiction currently?
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(08-09-2018, 10:39 AM)Benton Wrote: Anecdotal, but a favorite story of my last place of business. No union, but shows the reflection of a business and its approach to safety.
About seven years ago the company decided it could save money by turning off the lights in the pressroom during the day, as the presses only ran at night. People still make deliveries and cross the shop to get to storage, though. One wall is all windows, so it let in some light. Except it wasn't enough and it got worse when they tinted the windows to cut down on cooling costs. The floor has one giant piece of machinery (the press) and there's a dozen of so pallets, stacks of boxes, etc.
Of course, being a dark room, people going through there started tripping over stuff they couldn't see. Delivery drivers refused to go inside, so boxes stacked up out back where they would just drop them off. Employees started complaining (especially after the tint), so management decided to fix the problem: they hung a flashlight by each doorway with a sign that said "Caution".
Businesses often don't care about safety, they care about profit. There's nothing wrong or evil in that.
I hope that was sarcasm. 
I much as I have loathed my interactions with OSHA at my current job we do care about safety here. And when I see another mine explosion that is related to safety lapses I understand the need for such oversight.
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(08-09-2018, 10:39 AM)Benton Wrote: Anecdotal, but a favorite story of my last place of business. No union, but shows the reflection of a business and its approach to safety.
About seven years ago the company decided it could save money by turning off the lights in the pressroom during the day, as the presses only ran at night. People still make deliveries and cross the shop to get to storage, though. One wall is all windows, so it let in some light. Except it wasn't enough and it got worse when they tinted the windows to cut down on cooling costs. The floor has one giant piece of machinery (the press) and there's a dozen of so pallets, stacks of boxes, etc.
Of course, being a dark room, people going through there started tripping over stuff they couldn't see. Delivery drivers refused to go inside, so boxes stacked up out back where they would just drop them off. Employees started complaining (especially after the tint), so management decided to fix the problem: they hung a flashlight by each doorway with a sign that said "Caution".
Businesses often don't care about safety, they care about profit. There's nothing wrong or evil in that.
How much money could they possibly have saved? That just sounds stupid.
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(08-09-2018, 10:41 AM)Au165 Wrote: Did anyone report it to OSHA, you know the proper authority for such workplace violations, that despite your views on them, is funded and has jurisdiction currently?
Once that I know of. She was a manager who thought she broke her wrist and did mess up her knee tripping over a pallet.
She got fired and they hung up flashlights.
And it's not really my views.
https://www.safetyandhealthmagazine.com/articles/15918-proposed-fy-2018-budget-osha-msha-face-deeper-slashes-niosh-cuts-not-as-sharp-as-expected
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/exclusive-number-osha-workplace-safety-inspectors-declines-under-trump-n834806
https://www.bna.com/obama-requests-5705-n17179873302/
http://jordanbarab.com/confinedspace/2018/06/15/house-subcommittee-cuts-osha-funding/
https://www.safetyandhealthmagazine.com/articles/12774-advocacy-groups-to-obama-veto-osha-cuts
http://jordanbarab.com/confinedspace/2017/07/18/house-budget-devastates-osha-enforcement/
https://www.ishn.com/articles/106515-trump-budget-preview-osha-gets-cut-niosh-gets-disemboweled
Over the last 5-8 years, the agency has moved funding from enforcement to training. And some of those years lawmakers only moderately increased the budget, or cut it.
(08-09-2018, 10:42 AM)GMDino Wrote: I hope that was sarcasm.
I much as I have loathed my interactions with OSHA at my current job we do care about safety here. And when I see another mine explosion that is related to safety lapses I understand the need for such oversight.
No, businesses aren't evil. They're just entities comprised of smaller parts. Money isn't evil either.
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(08-09-2018, 10:52 AM)michaelsean Wrote: How much money could they possibly have saved? That just sounds stupid.
In the budget meetings where it was discussed, about $120 a month (that was after the tinting). The managers were pretty excited.
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(08-09-2018, 11:04 AM)Benton Wrote: In the budget meetings where it was discussed, about $120 a month (that was after the tinting). The managers were pretty excited.
Seriously? What a bunch of dumbasses.
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(08-09-2018, 11:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Seriously? What a bunch of dumbasses.
Their workers comp insurance went up more than that I'm sure after the lady broke her wrist.
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(08-09-2018, 11:10 AM)Au165 Wrote: Their workers comp insurance went up more than that I'm sure after the lady broke her wrist.
Yes. "Penny wise and pound foolish" was created for them.
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(08-09-2018, 07:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The union is a third party there. I understand it consists of the other workers, but it’s still a third party. There is the employer who doesn’t mandate it, there is the employee who doesn’t want it, so there has to be a third party if you still have to pay it.
I’m not trying to bash unions with this. I just believe they have been granted an authority they should not have.
The employer has to agree to that contract in the first place. The government doesn't give anything to the union in this scenario or have any power.
Right to work laws bar employers from having these contracts with the unions. That's government interference in business.
In states where these laws do not exist, the government cannot bar employers from willfully agreeing to these contracts with other non government entities.
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Despite what a few here have said; I don't think anyone has stated they do not "like" unions. I, for one, am not a fan of mandatory dues as a condition of employment; especially, if I'm already an established worker in that organization. As I said it's you telling me: "You don't know what's best for you, we do."
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(08-09-2018, 11:16 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Despite what a few here have said; I don't think anyone has stated they do not "like" unions. I, for one, am not a fan of mandatory dues as a condition of employment; especially, if I'm already an established worker in that organization. As I said it's you telling me: "You don't know what's best for you, we do."
Yes, but you're an expert on the vast majority of subjects based on incredible personal experience. You are the exception to that rule. 
Some people do need the help of others. It's been proven a good bit when labor and management try to reach a compromise. 
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