Mollie Tibbets Murder

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2018, 03:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think eliminating any gang would reduce crime rate, but since MS-13 is only a small part of the gang violence problem in America removing MS-13 would only have a small effect on gang violence.

If you are concerned with gang violence thn you need to concentrate on gang violence instead of immigration.

So then removing every illegal immigrant would have an effect on crime.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 03:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So then removing every illegal immigrant would have an effect on crime.

No.  MS-13 does not include as many innocent victims.

Removing just MS-13 would have an effect.  Removing ALL of them would have no effect because you would be removing all of the innocent victims.

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2018, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  MS-13 does not include as many innocent victims.

Removing just MS-13 would have an effect.  Removing ALL of them would have no effect because you would be removing all of the innocent victims.

Do you have a link for this?

[*michaelsean*]

(08-27-2018, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  MS-13 does not include as many innocent victims.

Removing just MS-13 would have an effect.  Removing ALL of them would have no effect because you would be removing all of the innocent victims.

I'm just trying to clarify here.  If we remove all illegals, we remove the crimes that illegals commit both against other illegals, and those legally here.(By legally here I mean all people who aren't here illegally not just immigrants) removing the ones committed against illegals by illegals don't make people legally here safer so those we leave alone.  What makes up for the crimes by illegals against people legally here?  The only place I can think of is if there are an equal amount of crimes committed against illegals by legals that would then be turned against other people legally here.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 04:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you have a link for this?

A link for what?

I can post links showing that illegals do not commit crimes against persons or property at a higher rate than legals and/or US citizens.

You don't think any illegal immigrants have been victims of crimes?

[Benton]

(08-27-2018, 03:40 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Have we tried not hiring illegals yet?

Or increasing staff to process visas?

Nope.

Instead of enforcing existing laws, we're spending time talking about opening borders, closing borders, building walls, etc. Just enforce the $%#& laws already there and adequately fund agencies responsible for those laws.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 04:29 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I'm just trying to clarify here.  If we remove all illegals, we remove the crimes that illegals commit both against other illegals, and those legally here.(By legally here I mean all people who aren't here illegally not just immigrants) removing the ones committed against illegals by illegals don't make people legally here safer so those we leave alone.  What makes up for the crimes by illegals against people legally here?  The only place I can think of is if there are an equal amount of crimes committed against illegals by legals that would then be turned against other people legally here.

I think you get it.

The crime rate of illegals is the same or lower than legals/citizens.  Unless someone has some other numbers I am assuming that the victimization rate is also about the same.

Some crimes are being committed by US citizens who will not be removed.  Some of their victims are illegals who will be removed.  Therefore these US criminals will find victims among legals/citizens.

So removing all illegals does not effect the crime rate.  You would remove some perpetrators, but you also remove innocent victims who will be replaced by legals/citizens.

[Bengalzona]

I was just talking to a retired couple in a very small community way out in the desert this morning. Most of the people in this community are retired and elderly. They asked if I had heard about "the murder". I had not. Apparently, an illegal alien broke into two homes at night, stole a gun in one, and murdered three elderly people. According to the couple, these illegal aliens were a real problem out there. They get laced up on drugs and thumb rides from truckers, who realize that these people aren't right and dump them off in this community in the middle of the night. Happens all the time, they said. "Like the way people drop off dogs they don't want in the woods".

When I got back to the office, I figured I'd look it up and see what all happened. The community is so tiny that you just type in the word "murder" and the community's name and all of the responses are for the same event, which happened in 2016. And, sure enough, there was a triple murder. As they said, a guy broke into these elderly people's homes, stole one of their guns and murdered them in the night. Pretty horrible. So what they had told me was true, which is good news to hear because they were a nice old couple. I'd hate to think they were making stuff up.

True, except for the "illegal" part. The dude is 'Murican born, a local Phoenix resident. It looks like the local community added that part to show ways of how this could have been prevented. Or, they got confused when they saw his picture and mistook him for an illegal because of his dark skin (actually, I believe I saw that his family was originally from the Philippines).

The jury is still out on the "drug-laced" and "hitchhiker" parts of the story. But, what the heck. Clearly a sane person would have had to have been on drugs to commit those acts. And there are way too many of those damn trucks driving on the one road through town, IMO!

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2018, 05:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A link for what?

I can post links showing that illegals do not commit crimes against persons or property at a higher rate than legals and/or US citizens.

You don't think any illegal immigrants have been victims of crimes?

A link that shows illegal immigrants are victims of crimes committed by legal citizens, at the same rate at which. illegal immigrants commit crimes against citizens?

If not; you're just kinda making it up.

[ballsofsteel]

(08-27-2018, 06:09 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I was just talking to a retired couple in a very small community way out in the desert this morning. Most of the people in this community are retired and elderly. They asked if I had heard about "the murder". I had not. Apparently, an illegal alien broke into two homes at night, stole a gun in one, and murdered three elderly people. According to the couple, these illegal aliens were a real problem out there. They get laced up on drugs and thumb rides from truckers, who realize that these people aren't right and dump them off in this community in the middle of the night. Happens all the time, they said. "Like the way people drop off dogs they don't want in the woods".

When I got back to the office, I figured I'd look it up and see what all happened. The community is so tiny that you just type in the word "murder" and the community's name and all of the responses are for the same event, which happened in 2016. And, sure enough, there was a triple murder. As they said, a guy broke into these elderly people's homes, stole one of their guns and murdered them in the night. Pretty horrible. So what they had told me was true, which is good news to hear because they were a nice old couple. I'd hate to think they were making stuff up.

True, except for the "illegal" part. The dude is 'Murican born, a local Phoenix resident. It looks like the local community added that part to show ways of how this could have been prevented. Or, they got confused when they saw his picture and mistook him for an illegal because of his dark skin (actually, I believe I saw that his family was originally from the Philippines).

The jury is still out on the "drug-laced" and "hitchhiker" parts of the story. But, what the heck. Clearly a sane person would have had to have been on drugs to commit those acts. And there are way too many of those damn trucks driving on the one road through town, IMO!

If they didn't have those guns in the house they might of lived.

[Bengalzona]

(08-27-2018, 06:26 PM)ballsofsteel Wrote: If they didn't have those guns in the house they might of lived.

It's Arizona. Guns are like penises out here: everybody's got one.

[ballsofsteel]

That wealthy Republican who that illegal turd worked for must be sick to his stomach.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 06:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: A link that shows illegal immigrants are victims of crimes committed by legal citizens, at the same rate at which. illegal immigrants commit crimes against citizens?

If not; you're just kinda making it up.

I am not making up numbers any more than you are.

What source told you that illegal immigrants are not victims of crimes committed by legal/citizens?  You clearly believed that without asking for any proof.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-27-2018, 06:26 PM)ballsofsteel Wrote: If they didn't have those guns in the house they might of lived.

Typical victim blaming.

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2018, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not making up numbers any more than you are.

What source told you that illegal immigrants are not victims of crimes committed by legal/citizens?  You clearly believed that without asking for any proof.

So you're asking me to post a link to support your argument?

I posted a link that shows about 90% of one of the most notorious gangs in this name is composed of illegal immigrants and suggesting eliminating that gang would reduce crime. So yeah, I did post proof; all you have is conjecture and bold font.

Would it help if I posted a link that shows 100% of illegal immigrants have committed a crime?

[BFritz21]

(08-27-2018, 03:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true.

Right now there are crimes committed by US citizens against illegal immigrants.  If you remove all illegal immigrants then US citizens will be victims instead of illegal immigrants.

If the crime rate is the same (and all studies show that it is the same between immigrants and citizens) then removing all illegal immigrants will not change the chance of any US citizen of being the victim of a crime.

It is a zero net sum gain.  You remove perpetrators but you also remove victims.  The crime rate, i.e. your chances of being a victim of a crime, remains the same.

Do you have any evidence or even logic to support that claim?  

Why do people commit more (or the same amount of) crimes against illegal aliens?  You can't just throw out numbers like that with no context or reasoning.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 09:07 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Do you have any evidence or even logic to support that claim?  

Why do people commit more (or the same amount of) crimes against illegal aliens?  You can't just throw out numbers like that with no context or reasoning.

I am not asking anyone to make any extreme assumptions in either direction.

All I am asking is that people believe it is the same on both sides.  The crime rate is the same on both sides (although some studies show undocumented immigrants commit crimes against persons and property at a lower rate than citizens), so why not assume that the victim rate is the same also.

Just makes since to me.

Why do you believe that immigrants commit criem s against citizens but citizens never commit crimes against immigrants?  That seems rather far fetched to me considering the crime rate is the same for both sides.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 07:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you're asking me to post a link to support your argument?

I posted a link that shows about 90% of one of the most notorious gangs in this name is composed of illegal immigrants and suggesting eliminating that gang would reduce crime. So yeah, I did post proof; all you have is conjecture and bold font.

Would it help if I posted a link that shows 100% of illegal immigrants have committed a crime?

Clearly you don't understand my point.  Let me see if I can explain it in simpler terms.

The crime rate among immigrants is the same as citizens.  So it only makes sense that the victim rates are the same also.  If you have reason to believe otherwise then lets discuss it.

So if the crime rates are the same and the victim rates are the same then removing all immigrants will not reduce any citizens chanmces of being the victim of a crime.  The same percentage of victims and criminals will be removed.


Your point about MS-13 really has nothing to do with this.   They are a super violent subsection of the immigrant population just like the bloods and crips are super violent subsections of citizens.  There is no proof that a higher percentage of immigrants are gang members.  So if wwe removed any gang (bloods, crips, MS-13) then we would reduce crime, but that has nothing to do with crime rate and the immigration issue.

[BFritz21]

(08-27-2018, 09:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not asking anyone to make any extreme assumptions in either direction.

All I am asking is that people believe it is the same on both sides.  The crime rate is the same on both sides (although some studies show undocumented immigrants commit crimes against persons and property at a lower rate than citizens), so why not assume that the victim rate is the same also.

Just makes since to me.

Why do you believe that immigrants commit criem s against citizens but citizens never commit crimes against immigrants?  That seems rather far fetched to me considering the crime rate is the same for both sides.

You're still ignoring my point.

If it's the same on both sides, then not having illegals (or less) in this country would still lower THE NUMBER OF CRIMES COMMITTED, regardless of the "rate."

[GMDino]

(08-27-2018, 11:00 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:


You're still ignoring my point.

If it's the same on both sides, then not having illegals (or less) in this country would still lower THE NUMBER OF CRIMES COMMITTED, regardless of the "rate."

If there were less men (legal or illegal) the crime rate would be lower also.