Some of you may recall that after the GA runoffs I stated that I hoped Senator Manchin had a spine, or the country was going to be in for a rough time. At the time I certainly could not have predicted that Sinema would join him in the fight to preserve the unique role that the Senate plays in our government. I can honestly state that Manchin has exceeded my hopes by a large margin. Despite constant haranguing from their own colleagues and harassment from protestors both have stood their ground, recognizing how disastrous eliminating the filibuster would be, both now and in the future.
I understand that some of you disagree with this characterization, or the filibuster, sometimes vehemently. But I wanted to point this out; John McCain was widely praised by both sides for his willingness to do what he thought was right, not what his party wanted. Both Manchin and Sinema have received the exact opposite response, despite displaying the same qualities, for the same reasons, as John McCain. Much like the flip from defending the filibuster just a few short years ago to labeling it a "relic of segregation and slavery" and "a grave risk to our democracy" the willingness to stand for one's principles rather than the party line has now become a reason for scorn and derision, for hostility and rancor. I have said before that the most insidious part of Trump's presidency wasn't his actions, speeches or even his tweets, it was his ability to bring out the worst in other people in response to those things. This is merely the latest example.
I wanted to share this speech, if you care to watch it, and I encourage you to do so, you will see an honest man standing on principle with a sound and logical argument for doing so. You may disagree with his conclusion, but I can't imagine disagreeing with his reason for coming to it. Much like McCain in 2000, I would happily vote for Manchin for POTUS if he ever chose to run. Food for thought, in any event.
I can’t believe the admin-water-carrying media asking them about it over and over every day and lunatics following them into bathrooms and playing in traffic in front of their cars haven’t changed their minds!!
Old enough to remember when McCain was a “maverick”.
While I am against the filibuster, myself, I haven't really been disparaging of Sinema and Manchin. I grumble about them, sure. As an Appalachian descendant of the OG rednecks I even feel like he is doing a disservice to his constituents (not just on this issue, but on many others). All of that being said, I am never one for toeing the party line. I'm a lefty, but very much not a Democrat. In the end, principles are all we have. People call me an ideologue sometimes for this, and that may be so. Anyway, if you can't make the vote happen there are many failures that had to take place. The Democrats should have been making their case well enough that they didn't have to rely on their slim margins.
Disclaimer: this post is pre-coffee. If is is non-sensiscal, this is why.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(01-20-2022, 07:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I am against the filibuster, myself, I haven't really been disparaging of Sinema and Manchin. I grumble about them, sure. As an Appalachian descendant of the OG rednecks I even feel like he is doing a disservice to his constituents (not just on this issue, but on many others). All of that being said, I am never one for toeing the party line. I'm a lefty, but very much not a Democrat. In the end, principles are all we have. People call me an ideologue sometimes for this, and that may be so. Anyway, if you can't make the vote happen there are many failures that had to take place. The Democrats should have been making their case well enough that they didn't have to rely on their slim margins.
Disclaimer: this post is pre-coffee. If is is non-sensiscal, this is why.
I guess what I can't understand is why the guy votes against what is best for his constituents on a regular basis. If his ideals do not match up with what his supporters want or need how does he keep winning?
But that goes into voters who regularly vote against their own best interests.
Personally I don't care so much that he doesn't blindly follow the party line but that his reasoning is rarely good as to why. His concern of the deficit only seem to rear its head when it come to Democrat proposals.
Maybe he's just really, really principled and I can't understand the hair-thin line he uses to enforce those principles.
Sinema I don't understand at all. Maybe because she's not as local as Manchin I get to see what he does more often.
Quick edit to add: I think you are saying they needed to win more seats if they wanted their policies to pass. I think that right in that if they held a bigger majority it wouldn't be as hard. But these bills still wouldn't pass if absolutely zero republicans will ever vote for them. And these voting rights bills that are being blocked by republicans will make winning even more difficult, IMHO.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(01-20-2022, 10:02 AM)GMDino Wrote: I guess what I can't understand is why the guy votes against what is best for his constituents on a regular basis. If his ideals do not match up with what his supporters want or need how does he keep winning?
But that goes into voters who regularly vote against their own best interests.
Personally I don't care so much that he doesn't blindly follow the party line but that his reasoning is rarely good as to why. His concern of the deficit only seem to rear its head when it come to Democrat proposals.
Maybe he's just really, really principled and I can't understand the hair-thin line he uses to enforce those principles.
Sinema I don't understand at all. Maybe because she's not as local as Manchin I get to see what he does more often.
Quick edit to add: I think you are saying they needed to win more seats if they wanted their policies to pass. I think that right in that if they held a bigger majority it wouldn't be as hard. But these bills still wouldn't pass if absolutely zero republicans will ever vote for them. And these voting rights bills that are being blocked by republicans will make winning even more difficult, IMHO.
The general population is stupid. The GOP has figured this out and has a formula in place for winning elections that has been working for them. They have created wedge issues that are meaningless but that play well in the areas they need them to. They also play dirty. Too often the Democrats try to play being the smart and benevolent card. Which is great, I like smart and benevolent, but it doesn't win people over like they think it does. They are bad at politicking. They don't connect with most Americans, even though most Americans align more with their policies. It's the dumbest ***** thing, but that's what we're dealing with.
I don't disagree with you at all, I'm just saying that I don't blame Sinema and Manchin for this situation when the the failures of the Democratic party have led them to be in the situation in the first place.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(01-20-2022, 11:02 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: If this man was representative of the Democratic party, I'd still be a Democrat. Sadly that's not the case.
Manchin represents the DNC in the neo-liberal era from Reagan on. It's only recently that the party has not been more in line with him and only on a few issues.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(01-20-2022, 11:01 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The general population is stupid. The GOP has figured this out and has a formula in place for winning elections that has been working for them. They have created wedge issues that are meaningless but that play well in the areas they need them to. They also play dirty. Too often the Democrats try to play being the smart and benevolent card. Which is great, I like smart and benevolent, but it doesn't win people over like they think it does. They are bad at politicking. They don't connect with most Americans, even though most Americans align more with their policies. It's the dumbest ***** thing, but that's what we're dealing with.
I don't disagree with you at all, I'm just saying that I don't blame Sinema and Manchin for this situation when the the failures of the Democratic party have led them to be in the situation in the first place.
I fall in line with you on this. The gop campaigns better, Democrats govern better. But voters only care about the campaigns.
As an aside I had a discussion with two employees yesterday. Both are staunch conservatives. Each one said all the politicians are doing is creating issues for us to fight about while they spend our money. They know that the politicians they vote for vote against things that would help them but they do it anyway.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(01-20-2022, 12:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: It's almost like what is "moral courage" depends on which side of the issue you fall, eh?
(01-20-2022, 01:22 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: That would be the rub, I’m thinking!
Actually, no. Moral courage is doing what you believe is right in the face of opposition or consequences. The side of the issue you fall on has nothing to do with it. Now, for those observing said action the side of the issue they fall on certainly dictates the perception of moral courage. But it shouldn't, and that's exactly the point.
Before it's asked, yes, the GOP congress members who voted to impeach Trump did the exact same thing. I'd apply the label in OP to them as well.
(01-20-2022, 12:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: I fall in line with you on this. The gop campaigns better, Democrats govern better. But voters only care about the campaigns.
As a native Californian and resident since 1986 allow me to point out that the underlined could not be more incorrect. This state has gone to shit since it went deep blue. I think anytime the party in power no longer has to fear the other taking over then things rapidly go south. CA is a perfect example of this.
(01-20-2022, 01:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As a native Californian and resident since 1986 allow me to point out that the underlined could not be more incorrect. This state has gone to shit since it went deep blue. I think anytime the party in power no longer has to fear the other taking over then things rapidly go south. CA is a perfect example of this.
I tend to agree. I'm against parties in general, but if we are to maintain a two-party system here is my preferred mash up: Democratic executive, Republican lower chamber, and a mixed upper chamber. This requires working together to get shit done and, I feel, puts people in the places that cater to their strengths. However, I could switch my view on the executive and lower chamber at times. That all depends on the most pressing issues of the election cycle.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(01-20-2022, 01:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I tend to agree. I'm against parties in general, but if we are to maintain a two-party system here is my preferred mash up: Democratic executive, Republican lower chamber, and a mixed upper chamber. This requires working together to get shit done and, I feel, puts people in the places that cater to their strengths. However, I could switch my view on the executive and lower chamber at times. That all depends on the most pressing issues of the election cycle.
All seriousness aside perhaps I spoke in a generality but I was discussing how each party approaches getting into office versus what they DO in office.
I'm sure our resident "not a republican, just conservative" hates Democrats being in charge but I don't believe the entire state is a cesspool any more than PA, which has been largely under gop control for over a decade (except for the governor) is a cesspool.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(01-20-2022, 01:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I tend to agree. I'm against parties in general, but if we are to maintain a two-party system here is my preferred mash up: Democratic executive, Republican lower chamber, and a mixed upper chamber. This requires working together to get shit done and, I feel, puts people in the places that cater to their strengths. However, I could switch my view on the executive and lower chamber at times. That all depends on the most pressing issues of the election cycle.
My change would be at the executive level, and then depending on the current global situation. Since LBJ the Dems haven't really impressed at the foreign policy level. I think they're perceived as weak by the more dictatorial countries. Ukraine will be a litmus test on how much those countries can get away with under Biden. Say what you will about Trump, but I think his unpredictability, and volatility, put the breaks on the more aggressive actions we saw from Putin while Obama was in office and may very well be about to see again. Speaking generally, I'd say Dems are better with our allies and the GOP handles our opposition better.
(01-20-2022, 02:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: My change would be at the executive level, and then depending on the current global situation. Since LBJ the Dems haven't really impressed at the foreign policy level. I think they're perceived as weak by the more dictatorial countries. Ukraine will be a litmus test on how much those countries can get away with under Biden. Say what you will about Trump, but I think his unpredictability, and volatility, put the breaks on the more aggressive actions we saw from Putin while Obama was in office and may very well be about to see again. Speaking generally, I'd say Dems are better with our allies and the GOP handles our opposition better.
I know foreign policy is important, I just tend to think more about our domestic issues. Also, I'll be honest here and say that I would just love it if we could get politicians that had the guts to properly apply Keynesian principles.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(01-20-2022, 01:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As a native Californian and resident since 1986 allow me to point out that the underlined could not be more incorrect. This state has gone to shit since it went deep blue. I think anytime the party in power no longer has to fear the other taking over then things rapidly go south. CA is a perfect example of this.
Isn't Manchin fighting things because the left-wing green initiatives would cut into the profits of his big coal connections? Maybe that's a bunch of left wing propaganda, but I'm more inclined to assign a politician's actions with his own bank account rather than altruism whenever possible. I could just be a misinformed cynic, though.
(01-20-2022, 08:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Isn't Manchin fighting things because the left-wing green initiatives would cut into the profits of his big coal connections? Maybe that's a bunch of left wing propaganda, but I'm more inclined to assign a politician's actions with his own bank account rather than altruism whenever possible. I could just be a misinformed cynic, though.
If it's not that, it's only a matter of time before he faces a challenger that calls him weak on borders, and a radical socialist. West Virginia ain't the bluest state in the union... But if this is all about his principles, good on him.
I'm gonna break every record they've got. I'm tellin' you right now. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but it's goin' to get done.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media0.giphy.com/media/1kwsTjL8BNqlszNtnCE/giphy.gif)
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
![[Image: EU8MR4eX0AUhHID?format=jpg&name=medium]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU8MR4eX0AUhHID?format=jpg&name=medium)
