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(02-19-2018, 03:08 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: He did admonish them and let’s get real Russia already has sanction fatigue.
Plus he is dealing with North Korea and will need the Russians to help get the Chinese in line.
Yeah, he has been weak on Russia, it's obvious. Even if he doesn't impose sanctions his language and demeanor towards the issue exude an air of weakness. I guarantee you that Putin considers him a joke.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
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(02-19-2018, 03:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, he has been weak on Russia, it's obvious. Even if he doesn't impose sanctions his language and demeanor towards the issue exude an air of weakness. I guarantee you that Putin considers him a joke.
To be sure. Being fair, he also clearly thought the same thing about Obama as evidenced by his annexing the Crimea with minimal repercussions.
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(02-19-2018, 03:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, he has been weak on Russia, it's obvious. Even if he doesn't impose sanctions his language and demeanor towards the issue exude an air of weakness. I guarantee you that Putin considers him a joke.
He did say Moscow was laughing their asses off
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(02-19-2018, 03:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: To be sure. Being fair, he also clearly thought the same thing about Obama as evidenced by his annexing the Crimea with minimal repercussions.
Being fair, he is going to think just about anyone we put in office is weak because of the constitutional constraints we have on them. Our POTUS is a dog chained to a tree in the eyes of a despot like Putin. Trump just happens to be the kind that will jump up in his lap after being kicked.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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(02-16-2018, 07:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Oh, I agree. The investigation will continue, and continue, until some dirt is found on someone, anyone.
However, this breaking news does offer great cover for the fact that the FBI completely blew it on the Florida shooter...
It's almost like a trade off. We lost America 17 people with a botched tip transfer? Ok, here's 16 Russian's that were mind ****ing folks on social media.
Just ring the bell and watch the Republicans smear the FBI. Trump has them so well trained.
Sure, Trump's repeated claims that there was never any meddling (Hoax! Fake News!) have been proven 100% wrong. And, even though his representatives claimed they were not doing anything wrong, all of them who met with the Russians tried to deny and lie about it. And Trump has still refused to impose sanctions that congress ordered to punish the Russians for meddling. Despite all of this Fox News fans still see nothing but smearing the FBI.
If nothing else Trump looks stupid and naive for trusting and believing Putin
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(02-19-2018, 03:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Being fair, he is going to think just about anyone we put in office is weak because of the constitutional constraints we have on them. Our POTUS is a dog chained to a tree in the eyes of a despot like Putin. Trump just happens to be the kind that will jump up in his lap after being kicked.
This.
But in my eyes messing with Crimea and messing with the United States elections are a little different. I did not really care that much what happened to Crimea. It is not like back in the cold war when the USSR was an (alleged) threat to world domination. Russia does not have the power to start taking over other countries.
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(02-19-2018, 03:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.
But in my eyes messing with Crimea and messing with the United States elections are a little different. I did not really care that much what happened to Crimea. It is not like back in the cold war when the USSR was an (alleged) threat to world domination. Russia does not have the power to start taking over other countries.
Tell that to the Baltic states and Ukraine.
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(02-19-2018, 03:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Tell that to the Baltic states and Ukraine.
They'll get taken over by Russia when the Unites States outlaws all guns.
Call me when either of those happens and we will have a discussion. But until then no need trying to argue with delusional paranoia. Crimea was a small portion of the Ukraine with a lot of Russian supporters. Russia is not going to take over any other Baltic States or the rest of the Ukraine.
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(02-19-2018, 07:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Do try sticking to the topic though, you'll only embarrass yourself if we include other topics like a lawyer not knowing the law and all.
I know that when people are in jail for violating gun regulations it is silly to say "Gun regulations only effect law abiding citizens".
How about you?
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(02-19-2018, 07:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Good job. I bet you can also find a long list of stories about how the US government is going to take away all guns from citizens.
Non-sequitur, strawman, etc. You know you stepped in it and you're not man enough to own it. Keep posting Freddy, I'm digging it.
Quote:Like I said. Call me when Russia takes over the entire Ukraine or any other Baltic State. Or when the U.S. government takes away all the guns from citizens.
Hahaha, they just annexed part of another country by means of duplicity and military force. You mean you need two egregious examples of activity that hasn't been tolerated since WW2 before you acknowledge that there's a problem? Keep strawmanning though Fred, it's not a good look. 
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(02-19-2018, 07:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You mean you need two egregious examples of activity that hasn't been tolerated since WW2 before you acknowledge that there's a problem?
Yes. That is exactly what I mean.
(02-19-2018, 05:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Crimea was a small portion of the Ukraine with a lot of Russian supporters. Russia is not going to take over any other Baltic States or the rest of the Ukraine.
When it happens feel free to tell me "I told you so.", but until then you have your opinion and I have mine. But I guarantee this will end up just like your fear that the federal government is going to outlaw all guns. You and the NRA have been squealing about that for 20 years now. So call me when it does.
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(02-19-2018, 07:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes. That is exactly what I mean.
When it happens feel free to tell me "I told you so.", but until then you have your opinion and I have mine. But I guarantee this will end up just like your fear that the federal government is going to outlaw all guns. You and the NRA have been squealing about that for 20 years now. So call me when it does.
So, Fred is fine with Russia stealing territory from its neighbors, endlessly harassing it's neighbors, conducting military campaigns in the territory of its neighbors, conducting cyber attacks on its neighbors, extorting its neighbors by cutting off natural gas shipments, etc. If only you were as liberal with gun owners, we probably wouldn't have a problem with you then.
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(02-19-2018, 03:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, he has been weak on Russia, it's obvious. Even if he doesn't impose sanctions his language and demeanor towards the issue exude an air of weakness. I guarantee you that Putin considers him a joke.
It’s only weak on russia if he isn’t developing a relationship to go against someone like a North Korea. I have no idea if he is or not, o will give him the benefit of the doubt. Since he said he was going to try and work with them during the campaign.
As for Putin...... that’s a culture of a man’s man. He no doubt thought obama was limp. As ssf mentioned he actually took Crimea. The Russian view of trump may Be different, the Russian people think he is strong. My father in law loves Trump. And if you guys think I am an ahole who doesn’t care about peoples feelings ....... my father in law is me on steroids. I even shake my head at some of his comments.
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(02-19-2018, 03:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Being fair, he is going to think just about anyone we put in office is weak because of the constitutional constraints we have on them. Our POTUS is a dog chained to a tree in the eyes of a despot like Putin. Trump just happens to be the kind that will jump up in his lap after being kicked.
When you have to apologize for pronouns, apologize for being us, and bow to lesser nations is when you lose respect.
It’s cultural. Men are just softer here.... we have gone too far in over correction.
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(02-19-2018, 03:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: To be sure. Being fair, he also clearly thought the same thing about Obama as evidenced by his annexing the Crimea with minimal repercussions.
To be super fair, while that statement isn't wrong in its sentiment it wasn't exactly the same thing Putin thought about Obama. He probably thought of Obama as being quite powerless. But he did not think about Obama "I can send my foreign minister on short notice and demand it stays a secret", he also did not expect Obama to give avay secret intelligence during that meeting. He also wouldn't expect Obama to say great things about him because he said great things about Obama. He wouldn't expect Obama to willingly contribute to the divide and muddy the waters on a daily twitterfueled basis. He wouldn't expect Obama to say no critical word about the meddling or to hold up Congress-ordered sanctions. He wouldn't expect Obama to accept a staff full of people meeting all kinds of Russian oligarchs, sanctioned banks and spies in secret.
It's not the same thing. At least other presidents weren't going for full-scale appeasement.
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(02-19-2018, 08:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: To be super fair, while that statement isn't wrong in its sentiment it wasn't exactly the same thing Putin thought about Obama. He probably thought of Obama as being quite powerless. But he did not think about Obama "I can send my foreign minister on short notice and demand it stays a secret", he also did not expect Obama to give avay secret intelligence during that meeting. He also wouldn't expect Obama to say great things about him because he said great things about Obama. He wouldn't expect Obama to willingly contribute to the divide and muddy the waters on a daily twitterfueled basis. He wouldn't expect Obama to say no critical word about the meddling or to hold up Congress-ordered sanctions. He wouldn't expect Obama to accept a staff full of people meeting all kinds of Russian oligarchs, sanctioned banks and spies in secret.
It's not the same thing. At least other presidents weren't going for full-scale appeasement.
I get what you're saying and why, but I don't think it's fully accurate. First I think Putin thought of Obama as weak and risk averse. To the former I'd say no, more cautious, to the second I'd say it's one of Obama's biggest failings as POTUS. You don't pull a land grab on a scale unprecedented since WW2 unless you're convinced those with the power to stop you won't do a damn thing to stop you. In this he was correct. As to Trump and Russia, I wonder exactly what people expect Trump to have said about Russia; "Yes, you're right. The Russians helped me get elected and all the Dems who've been saying my presidency is illegitimate from the beginning are 100% correct." Trump is in the position to either deny Russian meddling or open himself up to being labeled an "illegitimate president". The current "divide" as you put it is not solely the fault of Trump or the GOP. I loathe our current political climate and at the same time I recognize both sides contribution to it. Prior to the most recent election I would have put the GOP on the side of blame for the majority of this ill feeling. Since Trump's election it has absolutely been the other way. I think the Dems were so shocked by Trump's victory that they still haven't recovered. They have become everything they claim to hate and then some. Honestly, unless we get an extraordinary person as POTUS very soon, or an event so Earth shattering (cap intended) that unity is demanded, then I don't see the US political structure ever functioning properly again.
Of course, change that looks like years in the making can happen in months or days. Everything is still mutable. I would say for the first time in my life that I'm no longer optimistic though. There are no more adults to look to for reason or sanity.
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(02-19-2018, 07:58 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Men are just softer here.... we have gone too far in over correction.
Wow a factually correct statement. I will add this to your verified list of expertise, although it probably falls within the realm of Physical Education. Way to jump out front and cast the first stone.
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(02-19-2018, 09:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I get what you're saying and why, but I don't think it's fully accurate. First I think Putin thought of Obama as weak and risk averse. To the former I'd say no, more cautious, to the second I'd say it's one of Obama's biggest failings as POTUS. You don't pull a land grab on a scale unprecedented since WW2 unless you're convinced those with the power to stop you won't do a damn thing to stop you. In this he was correct.
I guess around 90% of Americans wouldn't have approved of a war against Russia over Ukraine, so there's that Problem Obama has and Putin has not. Which puts options off the table, Putin knew that and I don't know how much Obama is to blame for not orchestrating some bluffs. He used sanctions, what else could he have announced and really followed through? But be that as it may, that still doesn't make Obama just like Trump in Putin's perception. That's just not very likely, given the things I listed (and then some I did not).
(02-19-2018, 09:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As to Trump and Russia, I wonder exactly what people expect Trump to have said about Russia; "Yes, you're right. The Russians helped me get elected and all the Dems who've been saying my presidency is illegitimate from the beginning are 100% correct." Trump is in the position to either deny Russian meddling or open himself up to being labeled an "illegitimate president".
Yeah, come on :) First, as president of the United States he does have an obligation to the country that goes beyond just doing what benefits him politically. One can expect him to act in the country's interest before thinking of his own. That it "opens him up" is not a valid reason to give Russia a pass or to lie and push Hillary conspiracies and call all Russia meddling a hoax and attack the media that reports on it.
You might understand his motives, but you still shouldn't accept them. Says me.
Second, there's a whole range of possible actions between the one extreme Trump exercises and the one extreme you laid out (him yelling "yeah I'm illegitimate", which I would not expect him or anyone to do in that situation).
E.g. he could go forward with the sanctions Congress ordered, demand an end to these cyber operations, don't muse around on Putin's feelings or things like that.
(02-19-2018, 09:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The current "divide" as you put it is not solely the fault of Trump or the GOP. I loathe our current political climate and at the same time I recognize both sides contribution to it. Prior to the most recent election I would have put the GOP on the side of blame for the majority of this ill feeling. Since Trump's election it has absolutely been the other way. I think the Dems were so shocked by Trump's victory that they still haven't recovered. They have become everything they claim to hate and then some.
I can get behind the first sentence.
As for the rest, honestly we have been there and I just cannot agree on that in good conscience, have yet not found the angle under which it appears that way. Out of the 500 most inflammatory and/or outrageous things said or done in US politics recently, I'd probably attribute 490 to Trump or someone around him.
There's not much to make out of that for sure discussion-wise, but since you said "it's absolutely been the other way", do you have some examples of outrageous Democrat behaviour that is really uncalled for and unmatched by Trump?
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