Muslim teenage bride forced to commit suicide

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-14-2017, 03:24 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Muslim Husband forces Muslim wife to kill herself.

Blame Christians.

LMAO.

Christian makes prejudiced thread.

Then claims Christians are the victims of prejudice.

[GMDino]

(07-14-2017, 10:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yet you choose to defend Islam at every turn.  

And a total secular country isn't good either.    The founders at least knew religion should be part of our lives.

I didn't defend it in this thread.  

The founders said we could have whatever religion we wanted...they didn't say religion should be part of the government or that anyone's religion should be put over the other.

[Dill]

(07-14-2017, 10:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yet you choose to defend Islam at every turn.  

And a total secular country isn't good either.    The founders at least knew religion should be part of our lives.

I have warned him Lucie.

He's is supposed to be attacking Islam, not analyzing the social/historical conditions which lead to the current form of Islamism. We don't need to understand how Iran became a theocracy or the kind of theocracy it is, or why headscarves are now de rigeur in Cairo.

We just need to recognize evil when and where our leaders direct us to see it.

[Dill]

(07-14-2017, 09:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Post a new topic based on a news story.  The reason I post these stories is a reminder to everyone that these people need a reformation to get the crazy stuff out of their religion.    Will their be crazy people.... yes .... but at least have a reformation to modernize Islam.

In the 1950's it was laughable in Egypt to force a woman to wear a head covering.  Islam has moved backward while the modern world have moved forward.

Don't go there Lucie. Once you start examining why Islam hasn't always and everywhere been what you are calling "Islam," then you can't just blame Islam.

You have to get into the question of why things have changed for SOME Muslims in SOME places which have always been Muslim. Muslim bashing of some monolithic essential Islam no longer makes sense. Islamophobia loses its political effectiveness then.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-15-2017, 10:49 AM)Dill Wrote: I have warned him Lucie.

He's is supposed to be attacking Islam, not analyzing the social/historical conditions which lead to the current form of Islamism. We don't need to understand how Iran became a theocracy or the kind of theocracy it is, or why headscarves are now de rigeur in Cairo.

We just need to recognize evil when and where our leaders direct us to see it.

The world only has an Islamic problem because they are desperate need for a reformation. If they would come into the modern times like every other major religion then I would stop mentioning them. Yes everyone has crazy people doing crazy stuff but at least the so called moderates would have done something to separate themselves. Until then they are in the same boat and the reason doesn't matter. Time for Islam to grow up or go back to the Middle East do their crazy stuff there....

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 12:33 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The world only has an Islamic problem because they are desperate need for a reformation.    If they would come into the modern times like every other major religion then I would stop mentioning them.   Yes everyone has crazy people doing crazy stuff but at least the so called moderates would have done something to separate themselves.     Until then they are in the same boat and the reason doesn't matter.   Time for Islam to grow up or go back to the Middle East do their crazy stuff there....

Seems like Christianity got less crazy the more its followers moved to the western hemisphere.  Wait, are you suggesting to fix Islam we need more of them to come over here and join the modern world?

Actually, how about we trade our Christian nutbags and criminals for their moderate and non-offending Muslims and we let the reasonable people who believe in ancient middle eastern doctrine join the modern world and send all the nuts to the desert? Seems fair to me.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-15-2017, 06:37 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Seems like Christianity got less crazy the more its followers moved to the western hemisphere.  Wait, are you suggesting to fix Islam we need more of them to come over here and join the modern world?

No. They just need a reformation. That's not really Toomuch to ask.

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 06:51 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: No.  They just need a reformation.  That's not really Toomuch to ask.

Ok, sounds simple enough.  How do we do that?

[Dill]

(07-15-2017, 06:52 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok, sounds simple enough.  How do we do that?

Easy. Send one of these to every majority Muslim country.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-15-2017, 10:42 PM)Dill Wrote: Easy. Send one of these to every majority Muslim country.

I just want to see one Islamic group start the discussion. If this happened I would back off Islam until they sorted their craziness out.

I would stop posting threads about Islamic stories of just one major group would step up and call for reformation.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-16-2017, 12:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I just want to see one Islamic group start the discussion. If this happened I would back off Islam until they sorted their craziness out.

I would stop posting threads about Islamic stories of just one major group would step up and call for reformation.

Who has been fighting ISIS in and around Mosul? It ain't StLucieBengal.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-16-2017, 01:27 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Who has been fighting ISIS in and around Mosul? It ain't StLucieBengal.

Have they called for a reformation of Islam? The day that happens I stop posting crazy stuff muslims do on a daily basis.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-16-2017, 02:17 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Have they called for a reformation of Islam? The day that happens I stop posting crazy stuff muslims do on a daily basis.

Yeah, because risking their lives on the battlefield isn't enough for you . . .

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/09/us/isis-threatens-muslim-preachers-who-are-waging-theological-battle-online.html

[StLucieBengal]

(07-16-2017, 02:36 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, because risking their lives on the battlefield isn't enough for you . . .

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/09/us/isis-threatens-muslim-preachers-who-are-waging-theological-battle-online.html

Maybe they should do less fighting and spend more time modernizing their crazy religon that promotes fighting.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-16-2017, 03:32 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe they should do less fighting and spend more time modernizing their crazy religon that promotes fighting.

So you want them to spend less time actually defeating ISIS so they can spend more time talking about defeating ISIS?

LMAO!

ISIS would never grown to what it has become if the US hadn't invaded Iraq.

[*Nately120*]

(07-16-2017, 12:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I just want to see one Islamic group start the discussion.    If this happened I would back off Islam until they sorted their craziness out.

I would stop posting threads about Islamic stories of just one major group would step up and call for reformation.

Hmm, I wonder if it would go over better than the vilified Jimmy Carter calling for American "Christians" to stop being such venom-spitting d-bags and actually attempt to incorporate more of the teachings of the guy the worship into their daily lives.  Well, I'm not holding my breath on that one, but it's nice to see you have more optimism for Islamic reformation than I do Christian.

[Dill]

(07-16-2017, 12:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I just want to see one Islamic group start the discussion.    If this happened I would back off Islam until they sorted their craziness out.

I would stop posting threads about Islamic stories of just one major group would step up and call for reformation.

Well I'm glad to hear that Lucie.  On the old list once, many years ago, there were people demanding to know why Muslims never condemned 9/11. I offered them 7 or 8 links from American, British and Egyptian Muslims calling the attack a savage massacre of innocents and denouncing those who did it as non-Muslims.  It didn't change any minds. You are different though. You won't dismiss evidence, particularly if it is plentiful and unambiguous.

I am not sure what you mean by "reformation." But there must be just south of  100 groups in various nations promoting the "modernization" of Islam and embracing secularism. Among these, for example, many Muslim feminists challenge misogynistic interpretations of the Qu'ran and Hadith.

Here is a partial list of the latter which I am reposting from the "Merkel's foes in disarray"(#119) thread, where I discussed this issue a couple months back. (You were on "vacation" back then, I believe .)

(04-27-2017, 11:46 PM)Dill Wrote: In virtually every Muslim country there is a battle going on within/among Muslims over women’s rights. ...

. . . Aziza Y. al-Hibri, a Muslim and a legal scholar of Muslim jurisprudence, president of an organization called KARAMAH: Muslim Women Lawyers for Human Rights, which advocates for women’s rights in Muslim countries. Here is a link to their website, http://karamah.org/.

From there you can find a link to Al-Jazeerah, currently running a story on how a women’s rights group in Jordan is on the verge of abolishing a law protecting rapists who marry their victims. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/jordan-abolish-law-protects-rapists-170426114305294.html.   There is also this great article on Jordanian women learning martial arts.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2016/02/women-jordan-fight-rights-160205105852464.html. 

. . . This link is to Looking for that Other Face, by Frank van Lierde, a book in PDF form which tells the story of 6 Indonesian Muslim women who have organized to challenge Islamism in their region. It was financed by Dutch leftists and liberals in an organization called Human Security Collective.
https://www.cordaid.org/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/04/Cordaid_Other_Face_-LRtotaal_gecorrigeerd.pdf 

Egypt has a number of Arab language sites challenging patriarchal orthodoxy there, but here is one in English http://nazra.org/en. And feminist challenges are news reported frequently on sites like Middle East Eye, http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/egypts-embattled-feminism-2085551274. This British based news organization helps to publicize progressive Muslim activism and helps link efforts in Middle Easter countries to supporters in the US.

There may be "silence" about Muslim "outrages" in some Western internet forums and talk shows, where we are told "the left" supposedly "turns a blind eye to daily outrages." But the din has been very loud in leftist (no scare quotes) organizations and websites. And not just recently.
https://www.thenation.com/article/rise-islamic-feminists/.  http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/18/news/unstereotyped-muslim-feminists/.http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2005/12/mohammed-was-feminist

Muslims for Progressive Values has articles and arguments and disucssions of Sharia for gay Muslims.http://www.mpvusa.org/lgbtqi-resources/?gclid=Cj0KEQjwrYbIBRCgnY-OluOk89EBEiQAZER58mDbLPVUK2UilawK49257zomeNCzaoJdkRIhL9Xhwz4aAvmy8P8HAQ

I close with an interesting mainstream source about Muslim women who must combat BOTH Muslim misogyny AND Islamophobia--http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/18/news/unstereotyped-muslim-feminists/

[Dill]

(07-16-2017, 03:32 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe they should do less fighting and spend more time modernizing their crazy religon that promotes fighting.

We ought to be careful what we wish for. I would argue that the current affinity for terrorism by some Salafists has everything to do with "moderninizing" it.  

But to continue with examples of "reformist" Muslims,

The US-Based Center for Islamic Pluralism is a good place to start. Check out their "Wahabiwatch" feature. http://www.islamicpluralism.org/

Then there is the American Islamic Forum for Democracy. https://aifdemocracy.org/
AIFD is actively confronting the ideology of political Islam and openly countering the common belief that the Muslim faith is inextricably rooted to the concept of the Islamic State (Islamism). We stand firmly for universal human rights – including gender equality, freedom of conscience, and freedom of speech and expression.

Here is a link to BRITISH MUSLIMS FOR SECULAR DEMOCRACY, a group formed in response to terror attacks in the UK in 2006. http://bmsd.org.uk/

Reform isn't just occuring in Western countries. The Liberal Democratic Party of Afghanistan is also working for secular government and womens rights  http://www.afghanistan-djamhuriat.de/English.htm One of its members is Meena Keshwar Kamal, who founded The REvolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan back in 1977.

Almost every Middle Eastern country from Morocco to Pakistan has a Muslim liberal progressive movement. I don't really have time or room to link you to all of them. But here is one more, a link to the Muslim Reform Movement, one of the most prominent groups with international leadership https://muslimreformmovement.org/
Here is a blurb from their site. This should be concerning to right wingers as "reform" and "modernization" mean a decided left turn!

“We are opposing a very real interpretation of Islam that espouses violence, social injustice, and political Islam. We have to take back the faith. And we have to take it back with the principles of peace, social justice, and human rights, women’s rights, and secularize governance… we’ve had enough and suspect you have also!”