"My" people

[StLucieBengal]

(04-12-2018, 08:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: "The victim card"  

Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel the need to call black people African Americans instead of. Just Americans.

[HarleyDog]

(04-12-2018, 07:40 PM)Dill Wrote: PS  I am not sure the limiting of political views on AFN is something to be cheered. It implies that a thoroughgoing militarization of news, and perhaps US society, would be a good thing.  AFN shows Meet the Press, doesn't it? So it does "go there" a little.

PPS Who would watch AFN if other channels were available?

Good point. But it was better. However, every time someone came back from leave, we would all gather around, like 10-15 people in a room to watch vcr tapes of shows recorded while they were home. Priceless memories.

It doesn’t take a genius to understand what points I was trying to make. It’s very simple actually. We don’t need help being racist in one form or another. But it doesn’t have to happen.

[HarleyDog]

(04-12-2018, 08:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel the need to call black people African Americans instead of. Just Americans.

It’s part of the eternal argument si it must be put in writing. Or so it seems. Without racism, political agendas are tossed to the wayside.

[GMDino]

(04-12-2018, 08:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel the need to call black people African Americans instead of. Just Americans.

I just call them by their names.  

[Benton]

(04-12-2018, 05:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, I recently downloaded (illegally I'll admit) all the comics associated with DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis miniseries. I'm still in the "prologue" comics, the ones that just have the Monitor making appearances and there's a comic based on a super hero group call the "All Star Squadron". In this particular issue (written and published in 1984), there is a race riot and the villain is inspiring hatred in whites. One of the heroes is a black man (called Amazing Man) who defeats the racist villain.

At the end, after he's vanquished the villain, Amazing Man says something about helping "his people." One of the other heroes (a white woman) responds something like "I wish you would recognize ALL Americans as your people" but she says she understands what he's saying.

It got me thinking: how much closer could we come towards true racial reconciliation if people stopped seeing themselves as part of group based on their race? A friend of mine (who's black) and I have had some discussions on race and one of the things I found surprising is that he sees himself as a black man. The thing is, I don't see myself as a white man. Yes, i know I'm white, but that's not part of how I identify myself, yet, that's part of how he identifies himself.

In any event, gotta give it to the writers of a 3rd tier Justice League-type comic to get me thinking 30+ years later.

So... we wouldn't have racism if we didn't have race?

[*PhilHos*]

(04-12-2018, 06:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I really think you are underestimating the effects of race in our society. I am not just saying overt bigotry, but the little implicit biases that are encountered all the time. 

And I submit that a lot of the supposed implicit biases aren't really there but seem to be only because people are looking through racial lenses.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-12-2018, 06:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But put in the same place you would do the exact same thing.  If your neighbor has molested children in the past and he invites your young daughter over to his home what are you going to do?

Are you just going to say "There is no proof he is trying to molest her.  Let her go."?  Or are you going to suspect that he is trying to molest her?

Well, sure, if you're encountering a known racist, I'd be shocked if you DIDN'T expect them to do or say something racist.
But, say you keep hearing that police are racist and then you get pulled over for speeding (after doing 80 in a 65). Does that mean that the police pulled you over BECAUSE of your race? Or did they pull you over because you were speeding?

(04-12-2018, 06:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Or how many of you have applied for a job that you thought you deserved but did not get?  There are lots of studies out there that prove that identical resumes are treated differently based on the "ethnicity" of the name. So it is ridiculous to tell black people not to suspect racism when they don't get a job they feel they deserve. 

Just because one feels they deserve a job, doesn't mean that they actually deserved it or even qualified for it. And it is ridiculous for black people (or people of ANY color) to suspect racism is a cause of something unless there's evidence of it.

fredtoast Wrote:Same thing goes for dealing with the police when there is so much proof of systematic racism in law enforcement.

Just because there may be proof of racism in certain law enforcement agencies does not mean there is racism in ALL law enforcement agencies, nor does it mean that everything law enforcement does is due to racism.

fredtoast Wrote:You can't blame them for suspecting racism when there is still plenty of proof that they are victims of systematic racism.

Yes, I can if their only evidence that they've been a victim of racism is that there has been systemic racism in the past.

fredtoast Wrote:If you were 7 foot tall and had to deal with the problems of being 7 foot tall everyday then you would probably think of yourself as a "tall person".  Same thing applies to black people.

As I said, I can understand if one were to have an encounter that reminded them of a physical characteristic like height, weight, or even race, but you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe that a significant number of black people face such circumstances on a daily basis.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 01:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And I submit that a lot of the supposed implicit biases aren't really there but seem to be only because people are looking through racial lenses.

If you are saying that those inferring are incorrect, I would contest that. There are so many studies that confirm their existence that it would be difficult to give a comprehensive list. This is a very thoroughly researched topic. This isn't me saying every case is a result of racial bias, but it is happening so regularly it would be difficult to differentiate when it is not.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-12-2018, 07:48 PM)Dill Wrote: If I were Amazing man, I would have answered "Sure, and that will be easy when ALL Americans would recognize ME as one of their people."

But, what about a majority of Americans? Granted, I wish it would be "all" and, who knows, maybe someday it will be all, but if a significant majority of Americans recognize him as an American, shouldn't that be enough?

Not to mention that it doesn't help that many people of color segregate themselves.

(04-13-2018, 12:07 AM)Benton Wrote: So... we wouldn't have racism if we didn't have race?

[*PhilHos*]

(04-13-2018, 01:21 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If you are saying that those inferring are incorrect, I would contest that. 

I'm not saying all the time, but - and I know this is anecdotally - I've seen far more people claim racism or see racism tha tisn't there than the other way around.

(04-13-2018, 01:21 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: There are so many studies that confirm their existence that it would be difficult to give a comprehensive list. This is a very thoroughly researched topic. This isn't me saying every case is a result of racial bias, but it is happening so regularly it would be difficult to differentiate when it is not.

I don't deny their existence; I just don't believe it is happening with the regularity that you think it is.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 01:26 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not to mention that it doesn't help that many people of color segregate themselves.

They don't just segregate themselves.





Adam's sources.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 01:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm not saying all the time, but - and I know this is anecdotally - I've seen far more people claim racism or see racism tha tisn't there than the other way around.

I don't deny their existence; I just don't believe it is happening with the regularity that you think it is.

The evidence through studies points to such a high prevalence of implicit biases at work that it is difficult to not see it at a high rate of occurrence. The whole idea of these implicit biases is that there is a racially discriminatory component to the social interactions that is not being executed consciously. So the person who acts on these biases is not actively viewing them as racist, which means there are actually more instances of racial discrimination occurring than we perceive, not fewer.

This is some very interesting stuff to look at, in all seriousness. One of the things I look at in research, sometimes, is how implicit biases impact the way public policy is enacted and carried out. Trying to craft policy that is truly colorblind is extremely difficult because of how impactful these biases are, and they are something everyone has.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/index.jsp

[*PhilHos*]

(04-13-2018, 01:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They don't just segregate themselves.

Sometimes, they do. 

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 02:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Sometimes, they do. 

I'm not saying there is no voluntary segregation along racial lines, just that it isn't always (or most often) voluntary on the part of minorities. Groups tend to stick together with those most like them. White people hold, and have held, more power and ability to make those decisions in our country. The more likely scenario is that segregation is encouraged and facilitated by those holding the power.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-13-2018, 02:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not saying there is no voluntary segregation along racial lines, just that it isn't always (or most often) voluntary on the part of minorities. 

I never said or implied they did. Just pointing out that that they do it and that, IMO, it doesn't always help when ti comes to race relations.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 02:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I never said or implied they did. Just pointing out that that they do it and that, IMO, it doesn't always help when ti comes to race relations.

So if you're not implying that is isn't more often done voluntarily by minorities, then one would infer is is involuntary on their side, but you're blaming them for its impact on race relation. That doesn't follow.

Correction: Seem to be blaming them for its impact. That is my inference and I did not mean to imply that was your intent.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-13-2018, 02:48 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So if you're not implying that is isn't more often done voluntarily by minorities, then one would infer is is involuntary on their side, but you're blaming them for its impact on race relation. That doesn't follow.

I never said it was it done more or less voluntarily. What I did say was that they sometimes segregate themselves and it is those times when they are primarily responsible.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-12-2018, 06:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I really think you are underestimating the effects of race in our society. I am not just saying overt bigotry, but the little implicit biases that are encountered all the time. I see this sort of stuff constantly around me in higher education. Even in a class that is for a social science, where the professor is not only very liberal but is highly cognizant of race and its effects, I witness things like this that give a definite reminder to the students of color in the classroom that they are not of the same race.

If we ever stand a chance of actually getting to the point you desire, then we need to recognize the point we are at now. I want to emphasize that I am not just trying to put down you or your thoughts, these are just my observations from working within the social sciences toward policy solutions for things. Like right now I am researching and writing about felony disenfranchisement. We like to pretend that policies like this are colorblind, that we live in a post racial society, but the effects of them tell a much different story (so do their origins, but that's a different story). We can't move past things we aren't acknowledging, and we need to move past those things before we can get to the point you want to be at.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples? Would it be like going too far the other way? Like maybe a kid just wants to take a class, and not be the used as an example of injustice? That kind of thing?

[*michaelsean*]

(04-13-2018, 12:07 AM)Benton Wrote: So... we wouldn't have racism if we didn't have race?

We'd have a division somehow.  Always have.  Tribal, clan, race.  Saxons, Angles, Picts, Jutes, Norse etc, all white people and all hating the other groups.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 03:04 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples? Would it be like going too far the other way? Like maybe a kid just wants to take a class, and not be the used as an example of injustice? That kind of thing?

So these are minor things that happen all of the time. One example that happened today was a discussion we were having about globalization. Now, in a classroom of over 100, there are about 4 black students in the room. 2 of them sit right behind me (I sit in the front because I'm old and can't hear or see well ). In our talking about globalization, we have talked about hip-hop culture and the way it has spread across the world, specifically in reference to the Japanese hip-hop culture. When talking about this, and other topics that one would often associate with black people, the professor gestures more towards the black students and looks their way more often than when we are discussing topics people would associate with white people, or maybe Hispanic/Latino groups.

It's a very minor thing and it seems inconsequential to most people, but it impacts these students. The two that sit behind me talk about it sometimes and it is very interesting. I've had some conversations with them about this and how common this sort of thing is. It's not that the professor has any bad intentions or that there is any negative association the professor has, but it is a reminder to these students, and the rest of the room, that they are different and they are among us. They shrug it off because of those factors and because they are so used to it.