NFL Protest

[McC]

(09-29-2017, 08:22 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: No. Disrespect is such an understatement it's absurd to act like it's just "disrespectful." To call it disrespectful is to put it on a lower tier, as to devalue what the protest is actually about.

I understand why people aren't happy with the way that the protest was held - via kneeling during the anthem. That makes sense to me and I understand why it offends them.

But to put 'kneeling during the anthem' and 'the murder of innocent black people by an authority of the government on a consistent and unreasonable basis' on the same level of "disrespectful" is a false equivalency that I am not okay with.

People should be outraged about the latter, not the former.

Isn't this a bit of an overstatement?   If you have data to back it up, I'll withdraw the question.

[CJD]

(09-29-2017, 08:32 AM)McC Wrote: Isn't this a bit of an overstatement?   If you have data to back it up, I'll withdraw the question.

So are you saying the reason people are focusing on the kneeling instead of the murder is because they've decided that the murder is a myth created by the media?

[McC]

(09-29-2017, 08:20 AM)Nately120 Wrote: This is getting all P&R forum, but I'll say the issue (as I see it) is that the American flag as a symbol has been (quite brilliantly) established over the past 30 or so years as a symbol of the neo-con post-Reagan republican party.  It is supposed to represent freedom and liberty and everyone within the country regardless of color, creed, or affiliated but in the marketing and brand recognition sense it does not.

This is one of the reasons you see the American flag waved in earnest by people who oppose freedoms with which they disagree.  If someone holds a rally for gay rights or (if we go way back) interracial marriage, or a slew of other things you'll see the right-wing opposition waving the American flag in a sense of defiance.  Take your liberal crap elsewhere because this is America.  Personally, seeing someone zealously wave a flag that stands for freedom and liberty as an argument to deny freedom and liberty seems downright blasphemous to me.  Mingling the American flag with the Nazi flag just shows how far off-base people's perception of our nation's flag has become, but people are free to be that hypocritical.  

Short version...the neo-cons have brilliantly turned our nation's flag into their own corporate logo and the backlash against them spills over to it.  It's genius marketing, but it's also causing a sacred symbol of freedom to be bastardized for biased personal gain.  

Red is Coke, blue is Pepsi, red and yellow is McDonalds and red white and blue is neo-con.  



And if people choose not to do those things and you feel they are important you should just do them yourself instead of booing loudly.  Side note, I was raised Catholic and my gf is a Methodist and I go to church with her family and they don't kneel at all.  I asked where the kneelers were the first time we were in the church, ha.  Alas, I haven't booed them for refusing to kneel for the cross.

They don't even have holy water.  Lord knows what they'll do if/when Dracula shows up.

I haven't booed anybody nor told anybody what to do.  I realize the fervor of the soapbox got the best of you.  

Tolerance is what you do when the other guy doesn't agree with you. 

[McC]

(09-29-2017, 08:38 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: So are you saying the reason people are focusing on the kneeling instead of the murder is because they've decided that the murder is a myth created by the media?

I'm pretty sure what I was saying was what I said and nothing at all like what you just made up.

[*Nately120*]

(09-29-2017, 08:38 AM)McC Wrote: I haven't booed anybody nor told anybody what to do.  I realize the fervor of the soapbox got the best of you.  

Tolerance is what you do when the other guy doesn't agree with you. 

I was using the generic/indefinite "you."

[CJD]

(09-29-2017, 08:32 AM)McC Wrote: Isn't this a bit of an overstatement?   If you have data to back it up, I'll withdraw the question.

Quote:The median probability across counties of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is 3.49(PCI95: 1.77, 6.04) times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police}. The median probability across counties of being {hispanic, unarmed, and shot by police} is 1.67(PCI95: 0.99, 2.68) times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police}.
....

It is worth noting, that on average across counties in the United States, an individual is as likely to be {black, unarmed, and shot by police} as {white, armed, and shot by police}, with a median relative risk estimate of 1.04 (PCI95: 0.62, 1.61). The corresponding ratio for hispanics is 0.52 (PCI95: 0.32, 0.75).
...

At face value, the data suggest that conditional on being of a given race/ethnicity and being shot by police, one was more-likely-than-not to be armed. It is interesting to note that the armed-to-unarmed risk ratio in whites is elevated relative to that of black or hispanic individuals (especially in a handful of outlier counties, see Data folder in S1 File). This pattern is consistent with police being more discerning of armed/unarmed status before shooting a white suspect than shooting a black or hispanic suspect.
...

Across almost all counties, individuals who were armed and shot by police had a much higher probability of being black or hispanic than being white. Likewise, across almost all counties, individuals who were unarmed and shot by police had a much higher probability of being black or hispanic than being white. Tragically, across a large proportion of counties, individuals who were shot by police had a higher median probability of being unarmed black individuals than being armed white individuals. While this pattern could be explained by reduced levels of crime being committed by armed white individuals, it still raises a question as to why there exists such a high rate of police shooting of unarmed black individuals.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854#sec005

Quote:In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

But as data scientists and policing experts often note, comparing how many or how often white people are killed by police to how many or how often black people are killed by the police is statistically dubious unless you first adjust for population.
According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times larger than the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

Police have shot and killed a young black man (ages 18 to 29) — such as Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo. —175 times since January 2015; 24 of them were unarmed. Over that same period, police have shot and killed 172 young white men, 18 of whom were unarmed. Once again, while in raw numbers there were similar totals of white and black victims, blacks were killed at rates disproportionate to their percentage of the U.S. population. Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation’s population.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.ceccfd197010

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html?mcubz=0

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-28-2017, 11:32 PM)Shepdawg Wrote: My biggest issue with the NFL protests is President Trump's faux outrage to the protest.  Somehow Americans waving the Nazi flag in Charlottesville Va. is less offensive to our American Flag and to our Military troops than kneeling during the Anthem?  Or did I miss President Trump calling the Nazi flag wavers SOB's and calling on them to fired?  If I did miss him saying that, please direct me to where he condemned the actions of the Nazi flag wavers as strongly as he has the players taking a knee during the Anthem.  So I ask everyone here who wants to condemn the players.  Will you step up and admit that actions taken in Virginia and at rally's across the country where the Nazi flags are being waved by other Americans, are FAR more disrespectful to those that have fought the very Nazi's they are cheering, those who have died for our freedoms, to our current military troops and to our own American flag?  Where is the Donald Trump saying that many many sides are to blame for the protests at NFL games?  Does he reserve that only for protests where the side he supports gets out of line?   Before President Trump can be taken seriously, he MUST be consistent in condemning the actions of those that have taken far more egregious actions in the disrespect shown to our troops and our flag.

You're damn right I will.....and those bastards were dealt with accordingly in the streets that day.....street justice.

Ol' Trumpy could use some of what I talked of in my first post in this thread.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-29-2017, 08:22 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: No. Disrespect is such an understatement it's absurd to act like it's just "disrespectful." To call it disrespectful is to put it on a lower tier, as to devalue what the protest is actually about.

I understand why people aren't happy with the way that the protest was held - via kneeling during the anthem. That makes sense to me and I understand why it offends them.

But to put 'kneeling during the anthem' and 'the murder of innocent black people by an authority of the government on a consistent and unreasonable basis' on the same level of "disrespectful" is a false equivalency that I am not okay with.

People should be outraged about the latter, not the former.

Well said jdawg.

[CJD]

(09-29-2017, 08:40 AM)McC Wrote: I'm pretty sure what I was saying was what I said and nothing at all like what you just made up.

I'm sorry. I should have used the word "imply" in there somewhere.

Typically, when someone questions the veracity or magnitude of a statement, that implies that they themselves believe that the statement is false. The approximate equivalent of saying "but are they REALLY being killed by the police though? Seems like media spinning to me." 

I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I went on to cite some sources for you. I hope they are helpful.

[Hoofhearted]

Fellow vet here. I love what they're doing. People have to understand that good is coming out of this. I have heard of many examples of players reaching out to the local community to see how they can help. Also heard some of them are opening up discussions with some local police and government officials. Good things are happening, and I gotta say I admire the actions a lot of them are taking. Some people need to take a step back and gather some perspective on the matter. Nobody is hurting anyone. The flag is made of cotton or polyester and easily replaced. We seem to treat that with more respect than people, which I totally don't understand. Theirs thousands and thousands of people dying because of pills, drugs, and many other ways but when someone kneels during the anthem, RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! I just wish those that cared as much for the integrity of flag would be same for every human being out there. This world would be a much better place.

[WhoDeyandtheBlowFish]

(09-29-2017, 09:10 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Fellow vet here. I love what they're doing. People have to understand that good is coming out of this. I have heard of many examples of players reaching out to the local community to see how they can help. Also heard some of them are opening up discussions with some local police and government officials. Good things are happening, and I gotta say I admire the actions a lot of them are taking. Some people need to take a step back and gather some perspective on the matter. Nobody is hurting anyone. The flag is made of cotton or polyester and easily replaced. We seem to treat that with more respect than people, which I totally don't understand. Theirs thousands and thousands of people dying because of pills, drugs, and many other ways but when someone kneels during the anthem, RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! I just wish those that cared as much for the integrity of flag would be same for every human being out there. This world would be a much better place.

That is my issue with the whole ordeal.  When one begins to respect a symbol more than the values the symbol represents its called idolatry.  

As many other wise posters have said, there are things done behind the guise of the flag and "patriotism" that flies in the very face of our American values, and no one seems to care.  

On top of that just read the flag code.  "Patriots" literally break it all the time.

Also I read an interesting bit and I don't remember the exact numbers but it had to do with MLK.  While he was alive some 60-70% of Americans looked at him unfavorably.  Today, over 90% look upon him as favorable.  When people do things to bring social awareness to an uncomfortable issue, especially with a controversial medium, that is going to cause a lot of push back. At this point the discussion needs to keep happening and real dialogue needs opened up.  I think once that happens, and when this is looked back upon, it will be done so in a favorable way.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2017, 11:32 PM)Shepdawg Wrote: My biggest issue with the NFL protests is President Trump's faux outrage to the protest.  Somehow Americans waving the Nazi flag in Charlottesville Va. is less offensive to our American Flag and to our Military troops than kneeling during the Anthem?  Or did I miss President Trump calling the Nazi flag wavers SOB's and calling on them to fired?  If I did miss him saying that, please direct me to where he condemned the actions of the Nazi flag wavers as strongly as he has the players taking a knee during the Anthem.  So I ask everyone here who wants to condemn the players.  Will you step up and admit that actions taken in Virginia and at rally's across the country where the Nazi flags are being waved by other Americans, are FAR more disrespectful to those that have fought the very Nazi's they are cheering, those who have died for our freedoms, to our current military troops and to our own American flag?  Where is the Donald Trump saying that many many sides are to blame for the protests at NFL games?  Does he reserve that only for protests where the side he supports gets out of line?   Before President Trump can be taken seriously, he MUST be consistent in condemning the actions of those that have taken far more egregious actions in the disrespect shown to our troops and our flag.

Ever notice he spats something just before he tries to get something passed? It's a diversion tactic.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

I find that 4 out of 5 people calling for the boycott. were not really watching football to begin with. Trump needs to apologize for the sob comment the protests will go away and we can get back to watching football.

[Luvnit2]

(09-29-2017, 08:52 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854#sec005





https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.ceccfd197010

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html?mcubz=0

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

To use population, I think all facts need to be considered. What is the violent crime rate % for blacks versus whites and others? My guess is it is much higher for blacks. If so, yes blacks would put themselves in a position of danger if they are committing more violent crimes than whites overall.

This we know, the cities like Chicago have a ton of black on black violent crime. My concern has always been for the innocent kids and moms who can't walk in their own neighborhood. I would love to see pro athletes protest that, that would show me they understand we have a much bigger problem than a rogue white cop killing a black criminal. Look at the number of deaths in Chicago, it is almost as much or more in one city than all white on black police shootings each year.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-29-2017, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Ever notice he spats something just before he tries to get something passed? It's a diversion tactic.

That's what all presidents do!  It's been that way since all that hell was raised over NAFTA.

[XenoMorph]

(09-28-2017, 09:48 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Would hate to see it not played.

Have seen some great renditions of the anthem at Bengals games.

Especially when they use to buzz the stadium with those fighter jets at the songs end. Have not seen that in a few years though.

Seems the answer would be to keep teams in locker room while it is being played.

Let them know they are on the clock, will do as told and can protest on their own time.

Better for it not to be played... than to be mocked by over paid people. (who are contract obligated to stand)


If we staged a political protest at our jobs we would be out of work.

[CJD]

(09-29-2017, 09:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: To use population, I think all facts need to be considered. What is the violent crime rate % for blacks versus whites and others? My guess is it is much higher for blacks. If so, yes blacks would put themselves in a position of danger if they are committing more violent crimes than whites overall.

This we know, the cities like Chicago have a ton of black on black violent crime. My concern has always been for the innocent kids and moms who can't walk in their own neighborhood. I would love to see pro athletes protest that, that would show me they understand we have a much bigger problem than a rogue white cop killing a black criminal. Look at the number of deaths in Chicago, it is almost as much or more in one city than all white on black police shootings each year.

I don't have an issue with the number of black people shot by police, necessarily. The problem I'm focusing on is the unarmed bit, which the first study outlines is pretty stilted based on race.

I agree that there is a lot of violence in black neighborhoods in some parts of the U.S. There is also a correlation to these being poor neighborhoods, which may also be a factor. There really aren't that many "black neighborhoods" that aren't also poor neighborhoods. And this has a lot to do with the concept of "white flight" that led to the deterioration of the inner cities and the subsequent focusing of black population in poorer neighborhoods.

But that's a different, albeit somewhat related, topic that would take a whole lot more delving into than I think can be done with kneeling. It's also a whole lot more subjective and 'grey' for lack of a better term.

Whereas the police violence is a much easier to witness phenomenon that has statistical backing.

[Hoofhearted]

(09-29-2017, 10:08 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Better for it not to be played... than to be mocked by over paid people. (who are contract obligated to stand)


If we staged a political protest at our jobs we would be out of work.

Mocked? How's kneeling mocking anything? Not trying to get into a heated debate as I know this is very touchy for some, but I genuinely curious why this is mocking the national anthem?

[WhoDeyandtheBlowFish]

I don't recall anyone getting upset over disrespect for the flag when this happened at a halftime show.


I think cutting a hole in the middle of a flag and wearing it as a poncho is a little more disrespectful than kneeling silently.
   

[*Nately120*]

(09-29-2017, 09:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: To use population, I think all facts need to be considered. What is the violent crime rate % for blacks versus whites and others? My guess is it is much higher for blacks. If so, yes blacks would put themselves in a position of danger if they are committing more violent crimes than whites overall.

By that logic straight white males put themselves in a position of danger by being the most likely to fit the profile of a sex offender in this country.  Profiling...sometimes it bites you in the arse.