NFL Protest

[muskiesfan]

No reason to not play the anthem at games. Simply leave the teams in the locker room like they used to. No one will know if the sit, stand, kneel, take a shit, or whatever.

The kneeling doesn't bother me. It's their right. It's others right not to watch or support it. I'll leave it at that.

[*ochocincos*]

I like how some other countries do their national anthem at sporting events. They only do it during international sporting events like the olympics or international soccer matches. For example, England doesn't play their anthem when it's Chelsea vs Manchester United. They do play it when it's England vs Spain.

[Yojimbo]

(09-29-2017, 10:08 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Better for it not to be played... than to be mocked by over paid people. (who are contract obligated to stand)


If we staged a political protest at our jobs we would be out of work.

Maybe where you work and lots of other places. However, some states have laws against companies punishing employees over political views and some companies welcome and support political activism.

[*Nately120*]

(09-29-2017, 10:08 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Better for it not to be played... than to be mocked by over paid people. (who are contract obligated to stand)


If we staged a political protest at our jobs we would be out of work.

Yeah, and if you and I had as many women as Trump/Clinton/Cosby accusing us of sexual assault we'd be in jail.  Life isn't fair. Also, how are NFL players overpaid? It's supply and demand. They can do something very few people can. You can say it sucks that scoring a TD is more important to this culture than being a police office/lawyer/teacher/soldier, but it's all supply and demand.

[*PhilHos*]

At this point, I'm numb to caring one way or the other about people kneeling/protesting during the anthem. My personal thoughts are that they should NOT do it, but that they are free to do it. My main beef though is, what purpose is th ekneeling accomplishing? Is it to bring about awareness on a subject? Well, that's failed (not necessarily the fault of the kneeler). Is it to bring about change? Well, that too has failed. Personally, I don't see the point in kneeling other than to make a statement but even then, what good is that going to do when the argument, for better or worse, is about whether they should kneel and not about the reasons for their kneeling.

I don't think the NFL front offices should have said anything other than acknowledging that the players can or cannot kneel and they will or won't be punished. Since they've said the players can kneel and won't be punished by the front office, that's the extent the NFL should've commented. Don't go changing when the anthem is played or crap like that. That just goes against their comments about the players kneeling.

[PDub80]

(09-29-2017, 09:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: To use population, I think all facts need to be considered. What is the violent crime rate % for blacks versus whites and others? My guess is it is much higher for blacks. If so, yes blacks would put themselves in a position of danger if they are committing more violent crimes than whites overall.

This we know, the cities like Chicago have a ton of black on black violent crime. My concern has always been for the innocent kids and moms who can't walk in their own neighborhood. I would love to see pro athletes protest that, that would show me they understand we have a much bigger problem than a rogue white cop killing a black criminal. Look at the number of deaths in Chicago, it is almost as much or more in one city than all white on black police shootings each year.

EXCELLENT observation...

Recent Department of Justice statistics show that blacks commit nearly 50%...... 50% of both murder & robbery crimes in the US. (SEE: PERCENT DISTRIBUTION TABLE),   https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

Guess what % of the US population is black? Less than 15%. https://www.google.com/search?q=what+%25+of+us+population+is+black&rlz=1C1TIGY_enUS721US721&oq=what+%25+of+us+population+is+black&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5675j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

^ So roughly 15% of the US population is committing 50% of seriously violent crimes and people look in the sky and wonder why they are more likely to skew the police shooting numbers? Perhaps because, as a whole, they are more likely to act with deadly violence in situations where police will be involved. NOT life in general, but SITUATIONS WHERE POLICE ARE INVOLVED.

THAT being said... Law enforcement absolutely must be held to a higher standard in terms of calm and cool. It's such a tough, stressful job, but they absolutely must not paint everyone with the same broad brush. Police officers are human. They make mistakes and they also do awesome things. But like the little boy in Cleveland, the guy in Beavercreek, OH, and many many others, there are better tactical ways of handling certain situations.

Ultimately, sadly, I don't believe this gets solved in our life time. WE as a nation and community need to stop with having individual cultures take priority over our own sense of unity. "Us" vs "Them" gives people something to worry about, but it doesn't get anyone anywhere in terms of progress. Black communities defend and excuse their own issues just like the police do. There are parallels to be drawn there to a degree. This is not a job for just black people to do or fix, however. We as a society need to all put down our swords, so to speak. Listen to each other compassionately, look in the mirror, and stop defending and excusing due to our own desires to not shoulder blame or be a victim of guilt by association.

That officer is white, so he represents me. Is NOT true. Nor is the mindset of "That person is black and he represents me". We are a society made up of individuals. Until we are individuals first and a color wayyyy down the list of things that make up who we are... We're all ******.

There will always be assholes in this world. ALWAYS. The more we, as a society, lend them and ear or give them a voice, the more it legitimizes their absurd mindset.

[WhoDeyandtheBlowFish]

(09-29-2017, 12:36 PM)PDub80 Wrote: EXCELLENT observation...

Recent Department of Justice statistics show that blacks commit nearly 50%...... 50% of both murder & robbery crimes in the US. (SEE: PERCENT DISTRIBUTION TABLE),   https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

Guess what % of the US population is black? Less than 15%. https://www.google.com/search?q=what+%25+of+us+population+is+black&rlz=1C1TIGY_enUS721US721&oq=what+%25+of+us+population+is+black&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5675j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

^ So roughly 15% of the US population is committing 50% of seriously violent crimes and people look in the sky and wonder why they are more likely to skew the police shooting numbers? Perhaps because, as a whole, they are more likely to act with deadly violence in situations where police will be involved. NOT life in general, but SITUATIONS WHERE POLICE ARE INVOLVED.

THAT being said... Law enforcement absolutely must be held to a higher standard in terms of calm and cool. It's such a tough, stressful job, but they absolutely must not paint everyone with the same broad brush. Police officers are human. They make mistakes and they also do awesome things. But like the little boy in Cleveland, the guy in Beavercreek, OH, and many many others, there are better tactical ways of handling certain situations.

Ultimately, sadly, I don't believe this gets solved in our life time. WE as a nation and community need to stop with having individual cultures take priority over our own sense of unity. "Us" vs "Them" gives people something to worry about, but it doesn't get anyone anywhere in terms of progress. Black communities defend and excuse their own issues just like the police do. There are parallels to be drawn there to a degree. This is not a job for just black people to do or fix, however. We as a society need to all put down our swords, so to speak. Listen to each other compassionately, look in the mirror, and stop defending and excusing due to our own desires to not shoulder blame or be a victim of guilt by association.

That officer is white, so he represents me. Is NOT true. Nor is the mindset of "That person is black and he represents me". We are a society made up of individuals. Until we are individuals first and a color wayyyy down the list of things that make up who we are... We're all *****.

There will always be assholes in this world. ALWAYS. The more we, as a society, lend them and ear or give them a voice, the more it legitimizes their absurd mindset.

Sorry, but your statistics, like most, fail to recognize the systematic socio-economic disparities that go along with the numbers.  Unfortunately this goes much deeper than just numbers on both sides.  Segregation ended only 53 years ago, think about that.  

This is a group of people that was completely stripped of any sense of culture and treated inferior even until today.  When you're poor, regardless of color, you are automatically behind.  Worse schools, worse health, money problems puts stress on the family dynamic.  You grow up, and the cycle, unfortunately continues for most.  

Being desperately poor leads to crime, which leads to violence.  This has nothing to do with race per se, but because of the systems in place, and the history of this country, it falls disproportionately on the African American community.


If you've seen any of the videos that have been brought to the public's attention you can see for yourself that these cops are afraid going into the confrontation which automatically spells disaster.  Cops are supposed to be level headed, rationale, and should be taught to de-escalate rather than escalate situations. I think this falls on a severe lack of training and things really need to be changed. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-29-2017, 12:47 PM)WhoDeyandtheBlowFish Wrote: Sorry, but your statistics, like most, fail to recognize the systematic socio-economic disparities that go along with the numbers.  Unfortunately this goes much deeper than just numbers on both sides.  Segregation ended only 53 years ago, think about that.  

This is a group of people that was completely stripped of any sense of culture and treated inferior even until today.  When you're poor, regardless of color, you are automatically behind.  Worse schools, worse health, money problems puts stress on the family dynamic.  You grow up, and the cycle, unfortunately continues for most.  

Being desperately poor leads to crime, which leads to violence.  This has nothing to do with race per se, but because of the systems in place, and the history of this country, it falls disproportionately on the African American community.


If you've seen any of the videos that have been brought to the public's attention you can see for yourself that these cops are afraid going into the confrontation which automatically spells disaster.  Cops are supposed to be level headed, rationale, and should be taught to de-escalate rather than escalate situations. I think this falls on a severe lack of training and things really need to be changed. 

Well said, but the same thing goes for MANY communities in Appalachia, and all they get is made fun of.....and their mineral rights stripped away or dug out from beneath them.

[PDub80]

I choose to stand quietly for the anthem, but my thoughts on this are pretty solidified....

- I think that as a form of protest, the kneeling has been brilliant, frankly, as it won't die and is in front of everyone every week. A protest is SUPPOSED to make people notice and perhaps uncomfortable. If it isn't either of those then it's going to be swept away and unnoticed.

- There is NOTHING more American than these protests. The country was founded on things like this and our constitution specifically allows it. Period. IF you want to live where people are forced to salute, sing.... march, kneel, or kiss the asses of those in government power perhaps you should consider the lovely paradise known as North Korea. I'm pretty sure they have laws and rules like that over there.

- ^ That being said... They are kneeling and protesting in front of the NATIONAL anthem and flag. These issues are NOT Federal Government related. The flag and anthem are, without question, a federal thing. The US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT has ZERO to do with the issue.

That would be like me marching around the white house in protest because I didn't like a residential zoning issue in my city. Police violence is a LOCAL issue to an individual county, state, city, etc. There's LITTLE to NOTHING regulating the police on a federal level when it comes to these issues. So, while the protest is an amazing idea, they are protesting at & to the wrong thing.

- People are allowed and are free to protest our flag or anthem for whatever reasons they wish. The fact that veterans fought for these freedoms is NOT an insult to them. Telling someone what to do with their FREEDOM after you've fought for it negates the concept of that very freedom. That's wildly hypocritical. It's really simple.

- Many people sit, talk, yell, or BS for the anthem before games. They always have. Why is this such a national issue blows me away. Hell, I was at a Reds opening day game about 7 years or so ago and had seat on the party deck from WLW. Mr. "Great American" himself, Bill Cunningham, was two feet away from me sitting down during the singing of the anthem and yelling... screaming at the top of his lungs wondering where Seg Dennison was so he come look at something he thought was funny.

People go to the bathroom and take a leak and are talking, ordering food, walking into the stadium, etc. etc. during the anthem EVERY GAME.

^ To pretend like this is some outrageous thing of a few people all of a sudden disrespecting our country is absolute bullshit.

[WhoDeyandtheBlowFish]

(09-29-2017, 12:54 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well said, but the same thing goes for MANY communities in Appalachia, and all they get is made fun of.....and their mineral rights stripped away or dug out from beneath them.

Very true.  This certainly has nothing to do with race; it's just a fact of capitalism.  Kids born into poor families are really at a major disadvantage.  I grew up in a rural Indiana town.  I was lucky to go to college and break the cycle.  A lot of kids I grew up with were not.

[*psychdoctor*]

The irony is the lady Football League stands during the anthem while the NFL players use it as an opportunity to draw attention to themselves to make a statement.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-29-2017, 12:59 PM)WhoDeyandtheBlowFish Wrote: Very true.  This certainly has nothing to do with race; it's just a fact of capitalism.  Kids born into poor families are really at a major disadvantage.  I grew up in a rural Indiana town.  I was lucky to go to college and break the cycle.  A lot of kids I grew up with were not.

I agree wholeheartedly my friend, it's a socioeconomic issue that "someone" wants to make a race issue.  I don't know who that "someone" is, but I'm sure there's a money trail somewhere, and they are profiting from it.

[PDub80]

(09-29-2017, 12:47 PM)WhoDeyandtheBlowFish Wrote: Sorry, but your statistics, like most, fail to recognize the systematic socio-economic disparities that go along with the numbers.  Unfortunately this goes much deeper than just numbers on both sides.  Segregation ended only 53 years ago, think about that.  

This is a group of people that was completely stripped of any sense of culture and treated inferior even until today.  When you're poor, regardless of color, you are automatically behind.  Worse schools, worse health, money problems puts stress on the family dynamic.  You grow up, and the cycle, unfortunately continues for most.  

Being desperately poor leads to crime, which leads to violence.  This has nothing to do with race per se, but because of the systems in place, and the history of this country, it falls disproportionately on the African American community.


If you've seen any of the videos that have been brought to the public's attention you can see for yourself that these cops are afraid going into the confrontation which automatically spells disaster.  Cops are supposed to be level headed, rationale, and should be taught to de-escalate rather than escalate situations. I think this falls on a severe lack of training and things really need to be changed. 

1st of all... those aren't MY statistics. They are 100% true. And I am fully aware of the socio-economic differences between communities. I've spent a lot of time and moeny working to help the working poor class and have seen a lot of the issues that cause them to be held back. It is an internal issue and cyclical in nature.

2ndly... I agree that there is a strong cultural nurturing imbalance in some sects of the US population. It's 2017. That "system" is now on the shoulders of the black community and their culture they continue to protect - which is what I was referencing in the latter parts of my post. There are some amazing, beautiful things in black culture as well as some awful ones (whites are afflicted with these things as well).

The black community and working poor are caught in a perfect storm of cyclical problems. How can someone who has no idea how to even begin to be successful teach their children or people around them how to be successful? They simply can't.

- Cops are human. They can certainly be afraid. They make mistakes. They aren't robots. To expect them to ignore the facts of violence and statistical trends is asking them to be held to a much much higher standard than those they are working to protect. Too high, in my opinion.

At what point does the black community take responsibility to work with others to solve their inner issues? If you say they cannot, then they are powerless. I don't believe that.

[bengalhoel]

(09-29-2017, 08:22 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: No. Disrespect is such an understatement it's absurd to act like it's just "disrespectful." To call it disrespectful is to put it on a lower tier, as to devalue what the protest is actually about.

I understand why people aren't happy with the way that the protest was held - via kneeling during the anthem. That makes sense to me and I understand why it offends them.

But to put 'kneeling during the anthem' and 'the murder of innocent black people by an authority of the government on a consistent and unreasonable basis' on the same level of "disrespectful" is a false equivalency that I am not okay with.

People should be outraged about the latter, not the former.

Why dont the black athletes protest the white people being murdered by the cops too then?  I think people would more likely get on board with backing people up if it was equal. Even though the percentage is higher there are still twice as many white people killed by the police as blacks. 

I guess I am different. If I see an unarmed black/white man gunned down by cops when he is complying, then I am equally pissed off and I want answers.  When I see a cop doing his job and a career criminal is resisting arrest and he gets shot, too damn bad. 

[Luvnit2]

(09-29-2017, 12:47 PM)WhoDeyandtheBlowFish Wrote:

Sorry, but your statistics, like most, fail to recognize the systematic socio-economic disparities that go along with the numbers.  Unfortunately this goes much deeper than just numbers on both sides.  Segregation ended only 53 years ago, think about that.  

This is a group of people that was completely stripped of any sense of culture and treated inferior even until today.  When you're poor, regardless of color, you are automatically behind.  Worse schools, worse health, money problems puts stress on the family dynamic.  You grow up, and the cycle, unfortunately continues for most.  

Being desperately poor leads to crime, which leads to violence.  This has nothing to do with race per se, but because of the systems in place, and the history of this country, it falls disproportionately on the African American community.


If you've seen any of the videos that have been brought to the public's attention you can see for yourself that these cops are afraid going into the confrontation which automatically spells disaster.  Cops are supposed to be level headed, rationale, and should be taught to de-escalate rather than escalate situations. I think this falls on a severe lack of training and things really need to be changed. 

Why should we accept it be acceptable to rob and commit violent crimes because someone grew up poor? I grew up poor, 7 kids in a 3 bedroom house. I went to schools that were no that great. None of us robbed or killed anyone, never even thought it. Just the opposite, we were raised to work hard and be better financially and respect others always.

So sorry, to me there is no excuse to be a criminal whether you are white, black, rich or poor.

[*Nately120*]

(09-29-2017, 01:19 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why should we accept it be acceptable to rob and commit violent crimes because someone grew up poor? I grew up poor, 7 kids in a 3 bedroom house. I went to schools that were no that great. None of us robbed or killed anyone, never even thought it. Just the opposite, we were raised to work hard and be better financially and respect others always.

So sorry, to me there is no excuse to be a criminal whether you are white, black, rich or poor.

Rich people do heinous stuff too, they just have a much easier time getting away with it. When I was a teenager I remember my old man telling me to be careful what I did even if others were doing it too because he had neither the money, influence, nor inclination to save my ass.

[WhoDeyandtheBlowFish]

(09-29-2017, 01:09 PM)PDub80 Wrote: 1st of all... those aren't MY statistics. They are 100% true. And I am fully aware of the socio-economic differences between communities. I've spent a lot of time and moeny working to help the working poor class and have seen a lot of the issues that cause them to be held back. It is an internal issue and cyclical in nature.

2ndly... I agree that there is a strong cultural nurturing imbalance in some sects of the US population. It's 2017. That "system" is now on the shoulders of the black community and their culture they continue to protect - which is what I was referencing in the latter parts of my post. There are some amazing, beautiful things in black culture as well as some awful ones (whites are afflicted with these things as well).

The black community and working poor are caught in a perfect storm of cyclical problems. How can someone who has no idea how to even begin to be successful teach their children or people around them how to be successful? They simply can't.

- Cops are human. They can certainly be afraid. They make mistakes. They aren't robots. To expect them to ignore the facts of violence and statistical trends is asking them to be held to a much much higher standard than those they are working to protect. Too high, in my opinion.

At what point does the black community take responsibility to work with others to solve their inner issues? If you say they cannot, then they are powerless. I don't believe that.

I certainly wasn't saying the statistics aren't true; just that the fallacy with statistics is that they fail to take a lot of systems and circumstances into account.  This is a MUCH deeper issue than just pure numbers, and again that is on both sides.

Sure cops can be afraid, but that shouldn't give them a right to be trigger happy, kill a defenseless person, and then get paid administrative lead because they are afraid.  If you don't have what it takes to remain calm under pressure, and accept the inherent dangers of the job, guess what?  You shouldn't be a cop.


I think a lot of black communities do work towards bettering themselves and their community as a whole.  Also I agree, something that has been happening for so long, and the cycle recurring so often, it is not easily broken and there are certainly no easy answers.  

The wealth gap in this country continues to grow at an alarming rate.  This greedy, crony, capitalism shoulders a lot of blame for violence in this country.  Hoard most resources at the top.  And there is ALWAYS going to be a fight for the scraps at the bottom.  This is just nature.  It knows no race or species really.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-28-2017, 09:41 PM)Sweetness Wrote: I don't want you bringing these politics onto my message board! First it invades my football and now my message board about football.

Sucks don't it. This is what has been so beautiful about sports all these years. A way to get away.

I blame Kaepernick, he is the one that brought this shit up. He hates America, hence why he wears a Fidel Castro shirt.

Hates cops hence he wears socks with cops as pigs on them.

The players joining in better know his positions before taking a knee otherwise they are joining in on his positions unknowingly.

These guys aren't paid for their opinions.

They are paid to play football and they are hurting the game they love.

BTW, i am happy that our Bengals stand during the anthem. Bonnie said she would be done with the team if they started to take a knee.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-29-2017, 01:08 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree wholeheartedly my friend, it's a socioeconomic issue that "someone" wants to make a race issue.  I don't know who that "someone" is, but I'm sure there's a money trail somewhere, and they are profiting from it.

The ones bringing up color are the racists here.

I don't care if you are red, white, black or purple.

It is what you do and say that matters.

[WhoDeyandtheBlowFish]

(09-29-2017, 01:19 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why should we accept it be acceptable to rob and commit violent crimes because someone grew up poor? I grew up poor, 7 kids in a 3 bedroom house. I went to schools that were no that great. None of us robbed or killed anyone, never even thought it. Just the opposite, we were raised to work hard and be better financially and respect others always.

So sorry, to me there is no excuse to be a criminal whether you are white, black, rich or 

I don't find violent crimes acceptable, ever.  
However to ignore the socio-economic disparities is overlooking a major factor on the WHY this happens.
Not every person who grows up poor, grows up a criminal.  It sounds like you had some positive influences in your life that really helped elevate you out of your situation.  Not everyone is that lucky.  Are there people out there that have no desire to better themselves?  Sure.  That's everywhere across all social, economic, and sects of society.  However, just to blame it on a race of people and their community, and then justify a cop killing someone because statistically they are more likely to be dangerous is very disturbing to me.