NY Fraud cost will cost Trump over $350 miillion

[SunsetBengal]

(02-20-2024, 03:21 PM)pally Wrote: Amazing how you know more than the judge does.  The judge who has read every single solitary filing in this case.  Have you?  

Trump was required to respond to the charges in filings and responses.  Real estate experts on value don't help when your lies centered around the amount of square feet in the property, occupancy levels, and rent collected.  A building that is 50% leased is valued differently than one that is 100% leased.  A 30,000 sq ft apartment is valued differently than a 10,000 square foot apartment.  You can't value someplace like Mar a Lago as a private home because it is prohibited to be used for that purpose.  You can't subdivide the property because that is also prohibited.  Its only allowable use is as a private club, only open part-time, which extremely limits its value despite Trump's claims of $1.5 billion.  He can't even claim the "presidential" premium of the properties because he wasn't President when he committed these frauds.  It is meaningless what these properties may sell for today.  If his lawyers did a piss-poor job of convincing the judge that Trump had legitimate reasons to lie about salient facts about his properties then that is on them and him for hiring bad lawyers.  Bad lawyering is not usually an appealable factor.

There is no one here on the liberal side who falls into the cult definition.  There is no leader we follow blindly.  Every single one of us has criticized Biden and democrats at one time or another.  

Try again with your false equivilancy

*equivalency

[GMDino]

(02-20-2024, 03:22 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: *equivalency

Spelling smack?  

[Belsnickel]

(02-20-2024, 03:08 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: In the situation with sites like and similar to Mar-a-Lago and there are restrictive covenants involved, typically all it takes is to apply for a variance and submit developmental plans for approval, and thus voting by the Zoning Commission.

As an 11-year member of a zoning board (chairing 9 of those), saying "all it takes" in regards to this made me chuckle, but that is for Virginia-specific reasons.

So, the issue here is that the restrictive covenant is actually a proffer, or a "deed restriction" that Trump entered into upon the purchase of the property. This prohibits the property from being used as a private home and it can only be used as a commercial property, or club. This was done to reduce the tax bill on the property from all accounts. In this scenario it isn't really a variance that would be needed, but rather a negotiation with the municipality with regards to the lifting of the restriction. From my understanding of the situation in the area, that would face significant hurdles from the neighbors and would probably not pass muster. If it did, the locality could very well come back and say "well, you have been using it in violation of the restriction for x number of years, anyway, so in order to lift the restriction there needs to be a fine and back taxes paid based on that."

Edit to correct: He entered the restricted agreement in 994 when he converted the property to a club, it seems. It was in response to Palm Beach blocking his attempt to subdivide the property.

[Luvnit2]

Pally wrote:

"There is no one here on the liberal side who falls into the cult definition.  There is no leader we follow blindly.  Every single one of us has criticized Biden and democrats at one time or another."


You do realize cults also idolize a concept, a religion or other reasons in addition to one person.

It is easy to throw the name calling "cult" out there. Reality is he has a fa base of 75 + million people and Trump does not share your views or the views of liberals. Does that make you a member of a cult? I say no, but using your logic it would be yes.

Please show mw where conservatives attempt to shut down free speech or silence leaders of the opposition party by throwing them in jail. I get you suffer due to your hatred of a man and America First agenda. But, the attempt to go after Trump's business and then throw him in jail is perceived as being unfair, ot is perceived as persecution. These acts played into Trump's hands, he is gaining voters versus losing them. 

Call his supporters a "cult as it only emboldens those independents on the fence who are not brain washed by liberal policy to join the Trump America First team.

[*pally*]

(02-20-2024, 03:46 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Pally wrote:

"There is no one here on the liberal side who falls into the cult definition.  There is no leader we follow blindly.  Every single one of us has criticized Biden and democrats at one time or another."


You do realize cults also idolize a concept, a religion or other reasons in addition to one person.

It is easy to throw the name calling "cult" out there. Reality is he has a fa base of 75 + million people and Trump does not share your views or the views of liberals. Does that make you a member of a cult? I say no, but using your logic it would be yes.

Please show mw where conservatives attempt to shut down free speech or silence leaders of the opposition party by throwing them in jail. I get you suffer due to your hatred of a man and America First agenda. But, the attempt to go after Trump's business and then throw him in jail is perceived as being unfair, ot is perceived as persecution. These acts played into Trump's hands, he is gaining voters versus losing them. 

Call his supporters a "cult as it only emboldens those independents on the fence who are not brain washed by liberal policy to join the Trump America First team.

what "opposition" leader is in jail?  No conservative voice has been silenced.  

The USA is a country based on laws.  Multiple grand juries saw fit to charge Trump with crimes. He will get his day in court to defend himself.  That is how American justice works.  He doesn't get a "get out of jail free" card just because he used to be President. He also can't use running for President as an excuse to avoid facing justice for his criminal charges.  Getting away with things because you are a politician, rich, or powerful is not how America is supposed to work. Somehow though MAGA seems to think so.  Everyone else is ok with Trump being charged

I do not "hate" Donald Trump personally.  If he stayed a crooked businessman fleecing consumers I wouldn't have given a thought to him.  However, this grfting con artist with sociopathic tendencies has no business running this country.  As a result, I will do my part to keep him from ever returning to office.  If as a result of increased scrutiny, his decades of fraud came to light, then that is on him for perpetuating the crimes in the first place.  

[SunsetBengal]

(02-20-2024, 03:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: As an 11-year member of a zoning board (chairing 9 of those), saying "all it takes" in regards to this made me chuckle, but that is for Virginia-specific reasons.

So, the issue here is that the restrictive covenant is actually a proffer, or a "deed restriction" that Trump entered into upon the purchase of the property. This prohibits the property from being used as a private home and it can only be used as a commercial property, or club. This was done to reduce the tax bill on the property from all accounts. In this scenario it isn't really a variance that would be needed, but rather a negotiation with the municipality with regards to the lifting of the restriction. From my understanding of the situation in the area, that would face significant hurdles from the neighbors and would probably not pass muster. If it did, the locality could very well come back and say "well, you have been using it in violation of the restriction for x number of years, anyway, so in order to lift the restriction there needs to be a fine and back taxes paid based on that."

Edit to correct: He entered the restricted agreement in 994 when he converted the property to a club, it seems. It was in response to Palm Beach blocking his attempt to subdivide the property.

You're definitely right about me making it sound simpler than it is in reality.  My experience with Zoning and Planning boards was mostly with the Suburbs of Raleigh.  I helped to draft plans, as well as a few of the variance applications themselves.  It seemed to me that if a developer wanted to build a subdivision with "starter" level homes, the board would typically cling to the UDO, if it were for mixed commercial development or a mid to upper end neighborhood, then they seemed quite amicable to having that new revenue coming into the tax base.

[*pally*]

(02-20-2024, 04:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You're definitely right about me making it sound simpler than it is in reality.  My experience with Zoning and Planning boards was mostly with the Suburbs of Raleigh.  I helped to draft plans, as well as a few of the variance applications themselves.  It seemed to me that if a developer wanted to build a subdivision with "starter" level homes, the board would typically cling to the UDO, if it were for mixed commercial development or a mid to upper end neighborhood, then they seemed quite amicable to having that new revenue coming into the tax base.

There is an added problem with Mar a Lago too and that it is listed on the National Registry of Historic Places.  It means there is yet another layer of approval that must happen before anything can be done with the property

[Belsnickel]

(02-20-2024, 04:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You're definitely right about me making it sound simpler than it is in reality.  My experience with Zoning and Planning boards was mostly with the Suburbs of Raleigh.  I helped to draft plans, as well as a few of the variance applications themselves.  It seemed to me that if a developer wanted to build a subdivision with "starter" level homes, the board would typically cling to the UDO, if it were for mixed commercial development or a mid to upper end neighborhood, then they seemed quite amicable to having that new revenue coming into the tax base.

Every locality has its own quirks and board members always look at it differently. I am known as the hard ass on our board. In Virginia, we actually can't grant a variance unless the property is unusable without one and there is no alternative. It's a problem with the code and I am always lobbying for it to be fixed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2024, 03:21 PM)pally Wrote: Amazing how you know more than the judge does.  The judge who has read every single solitary filing in this case.  Have you?

I'm not claiming to know more than the judge.  I am saying that allowing a summary judgment under these conditions reeks of impropriety, and if Bel is correct and the law allows for it then the law is deeply flawed.   

Quote:Trump was required to respond to the charges in filings and responses.  Real estate experts on value don't help when your lies centered around the amount of square feet in the property, occupancy levels, and rent collected.  A building that is 50% leased is valued differently than one that is 100% leased.  A 30,000 sq ft apartment is valued differently than a 10,000 square foot apartment.  You can't value someplace like Mar a Lago as a private home because it is prohibited to be used for that purpose.  You can't subdivide the property because that is also prohibited.  Its only allowable use is as a private club, only open part-time, which extremely limits its value despite Trump's claims of $1.5 billion.  He can't even claim the "presidential" premium of the properties because he wasn't President when he committed these frauds.  It is meaningless what these properties may sell for today.  If his lawyers did a piss-poor job of convincing the judge that Trump had legitimate reasons to lie about salient facts about his properties then that is on them and him for hiring bad lawyers.  Bad lawyering is not usually an appealable factor.

All of that may be true.  So why do we keep hearing about his over valuing the property as a key component of this case?  Is it all of the sudden unimportant now that a major problem with this case is being discussed?

Quote:There is no one here on the liberal side who falls into the cult definition.  There is no leader we follow blindly.  Every single one of us has criticized Biden and democrats at one time or another.  

Miss me with that BS.  You guys can't even name a single Dem policy you disagree with.  Go ahead, amaze us and give us a few examples.

Quote:Try again with your projection...it doesn't work here

You guys are the ones constantly throwing around the accusation.  I'm just pointing out how you, and several others exhibit the exact same behavior you accuse of others of engaging in.  I get that self introspection is hard, but give it a shot.

[NATI BENGALS]

I remember when people used to claim Trump was smart for gaming the system. Hindsight says otherwise.

Now that he got caught cooking the books and his fraudulent business practices were brought to light, a lot of the people that said he was smart are crying it’s not fair?

Now all of a sudden we should all be on board with cooking the books and business fraud. Ah today’s GOP. Such a special group.

[Luvnit2]

(02-20-2024, 04:02 PM)pally Wrote: what "opposition" leader is in jail?  No conservative voice has been silenced.  

The USA is a country based on laws.  Multiple grand juries saw fit to charge Trump with crimes. He will get his day in court to defend himself.  That is how American justice works.  He doesn't get a "get out of jail free" card just because he used to be President. He also can't use running for President as an excuse to avoid facing justice for his criminal charges.  Getting away with things because you are a politician, rich, or powerful is not how America is supposed to work. Somehow though MAGA seems to think so.  Everyone else is ok with Trump being charged

I do not "hate" Donald Trump personally.  If he stayed a crooked businessman fleecing consumers I wouldn't have given a thought to him.  However, this grfting con artist with sociopathic tendencies has no business running this country.  As a result, I will do my part to keep him from ever returning to office.  If as a result of increased scrutiny, his decades of fraud came to light, then that is on him for perpetuating the crimes in the first place.  

Yet in his 70's and never been convicted of a crime. As far as silenced, Jack Smith is trying to silence him, the kangaroo judge fined hm $10,000 for speaking while a DA in Fulton County goes off and court and no silencing, no fines.

Yes, they are doing their best to silence and jail Trump. They realize it is the only way to stay in power, they fear Trump, they like you wet the bed over Trump and become unhinged. Same thing you say about Trump.

If Trump does not run again, no cases would have been filed. Their 3rd country gestapo tactics are failing, fun to watch. 

gestapo -the German secret police under Nazi rule. It ruthlessly suppressed opposition to the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe, and sent Jewish people and others to concentration camps. From 1936 it was headed by Heinrich Himmler.

[Luvnit2]

(02-20-2024, 08:12 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I remember when people used to claim Trump was smart for gaming the system. Hindsight says otherwise.

Now that he got caught cooking the books and his fraudulent business practices were brought to light, a lot of the people that said he was smart are crying it’s not fair?

Now all of a sudden we should all be on board with cooking the books and business fraud. Ah today’s GOP. Such a special group.

We will see in November if the GOP is actually special politically. I understand your 'special group' comment, just one more insult thrown out on voters who don't see the world as you do. As for "special people", not nice to poke fun on their behalf as they are very special.

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-20-2024, 08:22 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We will see in November if the GOP is actually special politically. I understand your 'special group' comment, just one more insult thrown out on voters who don't see the world as you do. As for "special people", not nice to poke fun on their behalf as they are very special.

https://youtu.be/zJ2P7XHHYjw?si=cmJ6aW_G7p6Qjs3d

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-20-2024, 08:22 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We will see in November if the GOP is actually special politically. I understand your 'special group' comment, just one more insult thrown out on voters who don't see the world as you do. As for "special people", not nice to poke fun on their behalf as they are very special.

You were one if I recall correctly that said he was smart. Turns out it was because of fraud and he got busted.

Maybe think for yourself for just one second. Could the narcissistic, conman, reality tv show host, who bankrupted multiple businesses, hung out with Epstein for a couple decades, admitted to being a serial sexual assaulter, tried to illegally seize power at the highest level of your government, lied to you on a daily basis, and is now installing his daughter in law to steal all the GOP donor money. lol lol. Could that guy actually be what all signs indicate?

Close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears, and keep screaming about the greatest president ever? Or accept reality? Up to you.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2024, 09:56 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: You were one if I recall correctly that said he was smart. Turns out it was because of fraud and he got busted.

Maybe think for yourself for just one second. Could the narcissistic, conman, reality tv show host, who bankrupted multiple businesses, hung out with Epstein for a couple decades, admitted to being a serial sexual assaulter, tried to illegally seize power at the highest level of your government, lied to you on a daily basis, and is now installing his daughter in law to steal all the GOP donor money. lol lol. Could that guy actually be what all signs indicate?

Close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears, and keep screaming about the greatest president ever? Or accept reality? Up to you.

At this point I'm closing in on wanting him to win again to watch people like you literally explode. 

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-20-2024, 10:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: At this point I'm closing in on wanting him to win again to watch people like you literally explode. 

Only way the guy who lost the popular vote the last two times and whose party was supposed to see red waves but didn’t because he is the biggest sore loser our county has ever seen, only way that guy wins is if he successfully rigs the election like he attempted to do last time. So yes. If a conman, traitor, who idolizes dictators, who is currently the leader of the deep state whose goal is to shut down any progress on crucial national security issues (all so he can regain power) and hung out with Epstein for decades, if that guy wins, my brain may very well explode.

[*pally*]

(02-20-2024, 07:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm not claiming to know more than the judge.  I am saying that allowing a summary judgment under these conditions reeks of impropriety, and if Bel is correct and the law allows for it then the law is deeply flawed.   



All of that may be true.  So why do we keep hearing about his over valuing the property as a key component of this case?  Is it all of the sudden unimportant now that a major problem with this case is being discussed?



Miss me with that BS.  You guys can't even name a single Dem policy you disagree with.  Go ahead, amaze us and give us a few examples.


You guys are the ones constantly throwing around the accusation.  I'm just pointing out how you, and several others exhibit the exact same behavior you accuse of others of engaging in.  I get that self introspection is hard, but give it a shot.

Agreement on top-line general policies is not a cult.  Agreeing that Americans should have living wages, a decent roof over their head, 3 square meals a day, medical care, and education does not make one a cult. What makes one a cult is thinking that there is only 1 way to acheive those goals and only 1 person who can lead us there and anyone who opposes him is unAmerican.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2024, 10:29 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Only way the guy who lost the popular vote the last two times and whose party was supposed to see red waves but didn’t because he is the biggest sore loser our county has ever seen, only way that guy wins is if he successfully rigs the election like he attempted to do last time. So yes. If a conman, traitor, who idolizes dictators, who is currently the leader of the deep state whose goal is to shut down any progress on crucial national security issues (all so he can regain power) and hung out with Epstein for decades, if that guy wins, my brain may very well explode.

Rigged elections?  Someone sounds like Trump or a MAGA conspiracy extremist.

(02-20-2024, 11:00 PM)pally Wrote: Agreement on top-line general policies is not a cult.  Agreeing that Americans should have living wages, a decent roof over their head, 3 square meals a day, medical care, and education does not make one a cult. What makes one a cult is thinking that there is only 1 way to acheive those goals and only 1 person who can lead us there and anyone who opposes him is unAmerican.

Oh, are those all the Dem policies you can think of?  Also, it's easy to be for things everyone wants, it's quite another thing to actually provide them, 'cause guess what, I live in CA with a Dem supermajority, and we don't have any of those pipe dreams.  Instead we have the largest homeless population in America, the 4th highest income inequality of any state, and are #38 in public education.  Spare me your "we're so good" wish list that you can't even begin to provide in the state with the largest solo economy in the US by far.

So, I'll give you another chance to actually answer the question.  Can you think of a Dem policy you don't agree with.  Just one, tiny little policy?

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-21-2024, 12:08 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Rigged elections?  Someone sounds like Trump or a MAGA conspiracy extremist.

Well… close but no cigar. Similar concerns up until the actual proof of meddling with our voting machines and data. Show me the trail of video surveillance, text messages, and communications with the Biden campaign to illegally breach voting systems?

I’m gonna guess Trump, the pillow guy, and Rudy are still moments away from producing their proof of voter fraud? Let’s let friend of Epstein and his crew keep messing around with our voting equipment. He is a stand up guy right? I can’t think of any wrong doing he has ever been accused of. What could go wrong?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/security-footage-shows-georgia-county-republican-chair-election-official-present-during-breach-of-voting-equipment

Guess how much I trust a serial sexual assaulter, conman, traitor, reality tv show host, who stole top secret national security documents, and has already been involved in illegal breaches of our voting equipment? If you guessed not very much. You are correct.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-21-2024, 01:12 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Well… close but no cigar. Similar concerns up until the actual proof of meddling with our voting machines and data. Show me the trail of video surveillance, text messages, and communications with the Biden campaign to illegally breach voting systems?

I’m gonna guess Trump, the pillow guy, and Rudy are still moments away from producing their proof of voter fraud? Let’s let friend of Epstein and his crew keep messing around with our voting equipment. He is a stand up guy right? I can’t think of any wrong doing he has ever been accused of. What could go wrong?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/security-footage-shows-georgia-county-republican-chair-election-official-present-during-breach-of-voting-equipment

Guess how much I trust a serial sexual assaulter, conman, traitor, reality tv show host, who stole top secret national security documents, and has already been involved in illegal breaches of our voting equipment? If you guessed not very much. You are correct.

The amusing/sad thing is that I agree with you about 90-95%.  You just lose me entirely when you can't see more subtle arguments or points that aren't accompanied by hair pulling, mouth frothing, teeth gnashing, histrionics.  Like I said earlier, you guys need 100% agreement or the other person is an enemy.  Sad really.