NYPD Officers Unhapppy

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-25-2018, 12:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No this is not ethical at all.  The fact that you, as a police officer, thinks so is very troubling to me.  Especially since the District Attorneys works so closely with police officers.  You are basically admitting that if a police officer is charged with a crime then the District Attorneys office will give him a "favorable outcome" under some sort of "ethical" discretion.

Interesting that you didn't answer the question I posed you.  It's OK, we all know the real answer.  Also, you've created a straw man by addressing an argument I didn't make.

Quote:Also we are talking about THIRTY A YEAR for EVERY SINGLE OFFICER.  That goes way beyond just helping out a family member every once in a while unless all of these officers are member of a crime syndicate family.  It is clear that these cards were traded for favors or sold for cash.  That is legalized bribery.  Giving an officer cash or a favor in order to get away with a crime.

Wait, you'll have to point me in the direction of the post in which I defended the NYPD cards.

Quote:This is proof of widespread corruption and abuse of the power by police officers.

In the case of these cards I'd agree, they are unethical.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-25-2018, 12:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It absolutely acknowledges reality.

When a person is allowed to cut inline at the DMV it pisses off everyone behind that person.  The fact that it happens does not mean it is okay.  That is the problem with police officers.   They think corruption is okay as long as they are the ones benefiting form it.  Then they act shocked when people accuse them of being corrupt.

They won't cut in line because they'll never be in it.  Obtuse much?

Quote:You can't come out and admit that you give your buddies breaks and then act shocked when one of your buddies kills someone and you are accused of giving him a break.  You can't brag about the "honor" of the "blue wall" and then act shocked when people accuse you of lying to protect a crooked cop.

Like I said, hyperbole, you revel in it.  I'm going to let you off for this speeding ticket is now I'm going to let you get away with murdering someone.


Answer this question.  Is it within the discretion of an LEO to not issue a citation for an infraction?

[Belsnickel]

(01-25-2018, 12:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I understand your point, but I don't think it acknowledges reality.  Knowing people makes certain tasks easier.  If you work at the DMV do you wait in line with everyone else to renew your drivers license?  

I take classes at the university where I work. When I go to register, I wait for my time frame to come around, and many times the classes I wanted a first shot at are full. Now, I know that I have enough ins with the Registrar and with the departments around campus that I could easily get an earlier time slot or get an override other students wouldn't. I never have, and never will.

There are many opportunities I have to get preferential treatment on campus as a student (which is our customer base) because I am an employee, but it would be unethical to do so. You're right in that the reality is that these things happen, but the reality is also that it created inequity when done in the public sector and is unethical. It is only reality because it is a remnant of the spoils system that existed before we really instituted bureaucracies and public administration models. It has been difficult to tear it out by the roots, and so it continues to exist in less egregious forms than it once did. But it is still unethical.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-25-2018, 12:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I take classes at the university where I work. When I go to register, I wait for my time frame to come around, and many times the classes I wanted a first shot at are full. Now, I know that I have enough ins with the Registrar and with the departments around campus that I could easily get an earlier time slot or get an override other students wouldn't. I never have, and never will.

There are many opportunities I have to get preferential treatment on campus as a student (which is our customer base) because I am an employee, but it would be unethical to do so. You're right in that the reality is that these things happen, but the reality is also that it created inequity when done in the public sector and is unethical. It is only reality because it is a remnant of the spoils system that existed before we really instituted bureaucracies and public administration models. It has been difficult to tear it out by the roots, and so it continues to exist in less egregious forms than it once did. But it is still unethical.

This is why I enjoy discussing things with you.  Well argued.

The NYPD cards are wholly unethical, especially if they are expected to work as no questions asked, you're free to go.  The argument I am making regarding discretion is that, if you have the discretion to let someone off of a citation, then it's hard to make a fact based argument that you are abusing said discretion.  If you only let fellow LEO's off that would be abuse.  If you let other people off, dependent on the circumstances, then it would not.  I'd also like to stress, for others trying to engage in this discussion, that we are talking about citations, not criminal acts.  Letting someone off for a criminal act would not be ethical, regardless of who committed said act.

[fredtoast]

(01-25-2018, 12:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Like I said, hyperbole, you revel in it.  I'm going to let you off for this speeding ticket is now I'm going to let you get away with murdering someone.

When police officers talk about the honor of the "blue wall" they are not just talking about speeding tickets.  There is a long history of police lying to protect crooked cops who commit all sorts of crimes including murder.

This is one of the biggest reasons so many people do not trust police, and the police bring it on themselves.  Just look at the LaQuan McDonald case.  If the police force had immediately kicked all of those guys off the force citizens would be more likey to trust the police in that city.  But when citizens see police lying to protect murder in one case they are automatically going to assume it happens all of the time.

[Belsnickel]

(01-25-2018, 01:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is why I enjoy discussing things with you.  Well argued.

The NYPD cards are wholly unethical, especially if they are expected to work as no questions asked, you're free to go.  The argument I am making regarding discretion is that, if you have the discretion to let someone off of a citation, then it's hard to make a fact based argument that you are abusing said discretion.  If you only let fellow LEO's off that would be abuse.  If you let other people off, dependent on the circumstances, then it would not.  I'd also like to stress, for others trying to engage in this discussion, that we are talking about citations, not criminal acts.  Letting someone off for a criminal act would not be ethical, regardless of who committed said act.

So here is where I think we are diverging in our scenarios. If an officer exercises discretion in handing out a citation based on contextual circumstances, more often than not it is initiated by the officer. In my scenario, the scenario at the DMV, or someone pulling out a card from the NYPD, this is someone asking for preferential treatment. I may be a bureaucrat, but I know that black and white policies/rules don't cover every situation and there has to be flexibility, which leads to discretion. However, when someone seeks preferential treatment because of their position or because of who they know, they are acting unethically and so too is the one acquiescing.

I hope my argument makes sense.

[fredtoast]

(01-25-2018, 12:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Answer this question.  Is it within the discretion of an LEO to not issue a citation for an infraction?

Yes.

Answer this question.  Can a police officer get in trouble based on how he uses this discretion?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-25-2018, 01:21 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So here is where I think we are diverging in our scenarios. If an officer exercises discretion in handing out a citation based on contextual circumstances, more often than not it is initiated by the officer. In my scenario, the scenario at the DMV, or someone pulling out a card from the NYPD, this is someone asking for preferential treatment. I may be a bureaucrat, but I know that black and white policies/rules don't cover every situation and there has to be flexibility, which leads to discretion. However, when someone seeks preferential treatment because of their position or because of who they know, they are acting unethically and so too is the one acquiescing.

I hope my argument makes sense.

Yes, the distinction is quite clear and, yes, it make sense.