Nancy Pelosi is too far Right for the Democrat base

[BmorePat87]

(09-21-2017, 12:04 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So we'll take your estimate of about 120,000. How many member of White Supremacist organizations do you think voted and do you think either was a voting base?

120,000 is 15% of the nearly 800,000 DACA recipients, so that would not be my estimate. You're taking me saying "far less than 1%" and making it 1% and then taking the nearly 12 million illegal immigrant estimate and going off that, which would be flawed methodology. 

What we know about non citizen voting stems from state investigations into whether or not voters were citizens (legal or not). Michigan investigated 9 people out of 2.9m ballots cast but didn't bring any charges. New Mexico identified 9 out of 1.2m voters who may not be citizens. Ohio said that 44 may have voted at some point between 2000-2012. 

Let's take Ohio and round that number up to 10 per election since some may have voted more than once. 10 of Ohio's 523,000 non citizen residents. If I make them representative of the 22,000,000 non citizens in the US, that's roughly 421 votes per election. Let's say all 44 voted in all election, that's 1850 or so. Illegal immigrants account for half of non citizens, so they may have voted in numbers ranging between 210-925. DACA recipients are 7% of the illegal immigrant population, so 15 to 60 votes there?

So 0.0019% to 0.008% would be my "far less than 1%" number accounting for a range of 15-60 votes, maybe. 

The biggest flaw in my methodology is assuming non citizen voting is representative of legal status. I think it's far more likely to suggest that it's easier to register to vote, whether accidentally or not, when you are legal. Would likely skew the numbers of illegals lower, maybe higher for DACA people, but from 15-60 to the thousands is unlikely.  


There are an estimated 5000 Klan members and the largest Neo Nazi group has 2500 members as of 2011. Let's round that up to 8000 knowing we're not accounting for the visible rise in their activity (which would likely mean rise in their membership) or true membership in other Neo Nazi groups. We're also leaving out White Nationalists. A recent WaPo/ABC poll found that 9% of Americans (or 22m) think these views are acceptable. It's hard truly gauge support, so we're just going off membership. Let's apply 98% of citizens who are eligible to vote and 65% of white people who voted. That's about 5,100, but it can range much higher if we are to accept the results of ABC's poll. Even just interpreting  5% of the acceptable responses as  agreeing with those beliefs puts us at 1 million likely voters.  

An argument could be made that White Nationalists constitute a base. DACA recipients? I couldn't call a number less than the amount of kids I teach in a day a "base". 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-20-2017, 06:45 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I asked for just one. It's a pretty low bar. Even for you. Still waiting.

Still waiting. Par for the course.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-21-2017, 08:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: How many racists/white supremacists that don't belong to an "organization" do you think voted?

Half of the white union voters who voted for Hillary?

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 10:18 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Half of the white union voters who voted for Hillary?

What would make half the white union members also racist?

Just to clarify I work with one avowed racist.  Hates blacks.  Period.

Big Trump supporter.

Laso happens he hates "liberals" and women who think they should work outside the home.

I'm sure none of those things are related.

I also work with several "I don't hate blacks, just the lazy ones and I don't want any working with me" guys.  Also all voted for Trump because he wasn't a woman and he was the only one with a plan to bring the jobs back.  (Note:  Don't ask them what the plan is or where they heard it.  They just "know".)

None of those people are part of an organized group....but they sure align with them.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-21-2017, 10:23 AM)GMDino Wrote: What would make half the white union members also racist?

Just to clarify I work with one avowed racist.  Hates blacks.  Period.

Big Trump supporter.

Laso happens he hates "liberals" and women who think they should work outside the home.

I'm sure none of those things are related.

I also work with several "I don't hate blacks, just the lazy ones and I don't want any working with me" guys.  Also all voted for Trump because he wasn't a woman and he was the only one with a plan to bring the jobs back.  (Note:  Don't ask them what the plan is or where they heard it.  They just "know".)

None of those people are part of an organized group....but they sure align with them.

There are also lots of white racists who vote Democrat for labor reasons.  Not to mention virtually any black racist..  

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 10:30 AM)michaelsean Wrote: There are also lots of white racists who vote Democrat for labor reasons.  Not to mention virtually any black racist..  

So we can acknowledge that racist vote even if they are not in an "organized group".

Good.

Albeit I don't personally know a person who hates white people that voted for the white person because of it.  I also don't know anyone who hates blacks and mexican who voted democrat.  Maybe my circle is too small.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-21-2017, 10:32 AM)GMDino Wrote: So we can acknowledge that racist vote even if they are not in an "organized group".

Good.

Albeit I don't personally know a person who hates white people that voted for the white person because of it.  I also don't know anyone who hates blacks and mexican who voted democrat.  Maybe my circle is too small.

You should probably meet some teamsters.  

And black racists will vote for the white people who constantly say how much white people suck.  

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 10:37 AM)michaelsean Wrote: You should probably meet some teamsters.  

And black racists will vote for the white people who constantly say how much white people suck.  

That automatically makes them not "racist", doesn't it?

The white racist I know would never vote for a black person no matter what they said.

That's what makes them racist.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-21-2017, 10:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: That automatically makes them not "racist", doesn't it?

The white racist I know would never vote for a black person no matter what they said.

That's what makes them racist.

No it doesn't automatically make them not racists.  I personally know people who voted for Obama who are racists. They don't actively do anything racist.  But they are the "good blacks and bad blacks" type.   It's party politics, and the wallet comes first.  

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 10:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: No it doesn't automatically make them not racists.  I personally know people who voted for Obama who are racists. They don't actively do anything racist.  But they are the "good blacks and bad blacks" type.   It's party politics, and the wallet comes first.  

Then they aren't racist.  A racist won't vote for anyone but a white person.  Like the people I described.

That's my narrow definition of a racist.  They can say "I don't hate ALL black people" but their actions say otherwise.

[Belsnickel]

(09-21-2017, 11:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Then they aren't racist.  A racist won't vote for anyone but a white person.  Like the people I described.

That's my narrow definition of a racist.  They can say "I don't hate ALL black people" but their actions say otherwise.

I call bullshit.

Look, everyone does/says racist things, and people that are blatantly racist will often do things that are counter to their racist views for a number of reasons. Just because a racist votes for someone that isn't white doesn't mean they aren't a racist.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 11:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I call bullshit.

Look, everyone does/says racist things, and people that are blatantly racist will often do things that are counter to their racist views for a number of reasons. Just because a racist votes for someone that isn't white doesn't mean they aren't a racist.

I not saying they don't have racist tendencies.  I saying they aren't RACIST.

The guy I work with is RACIST.  Hates black people.  Can't call them anything but the N word.  That is a RACIST.  The guy who hates "lazy blacks" but voted for Obama might be racist.  But he isn't RACIST.  And for the purposes of this discussion on who votes for who the RACIST people are the Nazis, white supremacists, and those unaffiliated that not only share common ground with those groups but act out their lives based on them.

Clearer?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-21-2017, 11:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Then they aren't racist.  A racist won't vote for anyone but a white person.  Like the people I described. That's my narrow definition of a racist.  They can say "I don't hate ALL black people" but their actions say otherwise.

So you're extremely narrow definition of a racist is someone who only votes for white people? That's it? So all of those white supremecists in Charlottesville, you know for a FACT that they won't vote or never have voted for a non-white person?

If so, I don't see how you can claim them to be racists based on your own, admitted narrow definition of racist.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 11:20 AM)PhilHos Wrote: So you're extremely narrow definition of a racist is someone who only votes for white people? That's it? So all of those white supremecists in Charlottesville, you know for a FACT that they won't vote or never have voted for a non-white person?

If so, I don't see how you can claim them to be racists based on your own, admitted narrow definition of racist.

See the post above yours.  

As Matt said: Lot's of people have racist tendencies. How racist they are is on a scale. I'm talking about RACIST people.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-21-2017, 11:20 AM)GMDino Wrote: I not saying they don't have racist tendencies.  I saying they aren't RACIST.

The guy I work with is RACIST.  Hates black people.  Can't call them anything but the N word.  That is a RACIST.  The guy who hates "lazy blacks" but voted for Obama might be racist.  But he isn't RACIST.  And for the purposes of this discussion on who votes for who the RACIST people are the Nazis, white supremacists, and those unaffiliated that not only share common ground with those groups but act out their lives based on them.

Clearer?

No. You're saying someone can be a racist but they aren't automatically a RACIST. That makes no sense.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 11:21 AM)PhilHos Wrote: No. You're saying someone can be a racist but they aren't automatically a RACIST. That makes no sense.

See the post above yours.

[*michaelsean*]

Maybe we could throw in the word bigotry which is what most "racism" seems to be.

Edit: But I gotta admit this is the first time I've ever seen a liberal limit the parameters of what is considered racism.

[Belsnickel]

(09-21-2017, 11:24 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Maybe we could throw in the word bigotry which is what most "racism" seems to be.

I do try to use bigotry or prejudice more, because it is a broader and more accurate term for what is seen. Like my reference to the carpetbagging bigots that came to Charlottesville.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2017, 11:24 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Maybe we could throw in the word bigotry which is what most "racism" seems to be.

That might work. 

Let me add too to the "racists blacks who vote for white people" I'd hazard to guess that more often than not there is no other option than to vote for the white person.  So any "racist" feelings toward whites would have to be put aside for the "lesser of two evils"?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-21-2017, 11:21 AM)GMDino Wrote: As Matt said: Lot's of people have racist tendencies.  How racist they are is on a scale.  I'm talking about RACIST people.

There is no racism scale. You either are or are not a racist. There's no partial racists or 3/4 racists. Whether people know you are, whether you openly admit you are makes no difference. You either are a racist or you are not.