Nascar bans Confederate flags

[BmorePat87]

"The Confederate myth that the South loves and seems to be getting the rest of the nation to accept, furnished a psychological barrier to desecration. […] Confederate flags, pageants, songs, and such organizations as the Daughters of the Confederacy and its junior branch, the Children of the Confederacy, pictures and monuments to Confederate heroes - all serve to perpetuate a false image of history and strengthen the old ante-bellum ideals of white supremacy and colored inferiority […]” Dr. L.D. Reddick as reported by AFRO (1961)

The flag remains a relic of a false history that sought to promote white superiority after the Civil War. It has no place in the United States nor does its false message of benevolent heritage.

Carson Palmer was QB for the Bengals for longer than the Confederacy existed. 4 years isn't "heritage"

[Bruce]

(06-14-2020, 06:46 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: "The Confederate myth that the South loves and seems to be getting the rest of the nation to accept, furnished a psychological barrier to desecration. […] Confederate flags, pageants, songs, and such organizations as the Daughters of the Confederacy and its junior branch, the Children of the Confederacy, pictures and monuments to Confederate heroes - all serve to perpetuate a false image of history and strengthen the old ante-bellum ideals of white supremacy and colored inferiority […]” Dr. L.D. Reddick as reported by AFRO (1961)

The flag remains a relic of a false history that sought to promote white superiority after the Civil War. It has no place in the United States nor does its false message of benevolent heritage.

Carson Palmer was QB for the Bengals for longer than the Confederacy existed. 4 years isn't "heritage"

The confederate Flag doesnt stand for bad things with all people who have one. I have flown one proudly for years in my yard and on my truck and i aint racist or anything bad. I use to show my southern pride. Its where i came from and its part of the history. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-17-2020, 07:53 PM)Bruce Wrote: The confederate Flag doesnt stand for bad things with all people who have one. I have flown one proudly for years in my yard and on my truck and i aint racist or anything bad. I use to show my southern pride. Its where i came from and its part of the history. 

I’m sure to you it means that, but it historically is a symbol for a rebellion based on preserving slavery and later a campaign that sought to subjugate free Black Americans.

The fact that people do not know the history and mistake it as an innocent t symbol for southern pride is the problem.

[Bruce]

(06-17-2020, 09:48 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I’m sure to you it means that, but it historically is a symbol for a rebellion based on preserving slavery and later a campaign that sought to subjugate free Black Americans.

The fact that people do not know the history and mistake it as an innocent t symbol for southern pride is the problem.

i get how blacks feel differnt about it and how it means different things for there people. all im saying is that just cause people has confederate flags dont mean theyre racist or bad. i mean plenty of nasty shit has been done under the american flag but i still love that flag and fly it proudly an dont think you can say the flag isa bad cause bad shit was done in the name of the Flag. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-18-2020, 05:05 PM)Bruce Wrote: i get how blacks feel differnt about it and how it means different things for there people. all im saying is that just cause people has confederate flags dont mean theyre racist or bad. i mean plenty of nasty shit has been done under the american flag but i still love that flag and fly it proudly an dont think you can say the flag isa bad cause bad shit was done in the name of the Flag. 

and what I am saying is that the flag existed for less than 4 years as a representation of an armed rebellion against our nation that was based on the preservation of slavery. The South has since engaged in a propaganda campaign to promote the myth of the Lost Cause in an attempt to suggest it was not about slavery, but in addition to it 100% being about slavery, the iconography of the confederacy was used for decades afterwards to promote violence against Black Americans and Jim Crow laws.

The difference between the Confederate flag and the US flag is that, while the US flag flew under dark times, it flies under our best times as well. The US grew to (mostly) respect and protect the rights of all while the Confederacy, which only existed for 4 years out of the 413 years that this land has been colonized by the present inhabitants, only ever stood for treason and slavery.

Ignorance of history doesn't erase the history attached to relics of an immoral cause.

[Bruce]

(06-18-2020, 05:47 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: and what I am saying is that the flag existed for less than 4 years as a representation of an armed rebellion against our nation that was based on the preservation of slavery. The South has since engaged in a propaganda campaign to promote the myth of the Lost Cause in an attempt to suggest it was not about slavery, but in addition to it 100% being about slavery, the iconography of the confederacy was used for decades afterwards to promote violence against Black Americans and Jim Crow laws.

The difference between the Confederate flag and the US flag is that, while the US flag flew under dark times, it flies under our best times as well. The US grew to (mostly) respect and protect the rights of all while the Confederacy, which only existed for 4 years out of the 413 years that this land has been colonized by the present inhabitants, only ever stood for treason and slavery.

Ignorance of history doesn't erase the history attached to relics of an immoral cause.

always good to know all history an not just one side oir another. aint noone totally innocent in our history. https://www.history.com/news/deeper-roots-of-northern-slavery-unearthed

[BmorePat87]

(06-18-2020, 06:08 PM)Bruce Wrote: always good to know all history an not just one side oir another. aint noone totally innocent in our history. https://www.history.com/news/deeper-roots-of-northern-slavery-unearthed

That's why, as a history teacher, I mostly use primary sources, like the various articles of secession or the arguments made in southern legislatures in support of secession. 

And, yes, the North was guilty of many things as well for many years before and after. That doesn't change what the Confederacy represented. 

[Bruce]

(06-18-2020, 06:13 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's why, as a history teacher, I mostly use primary sources, like the various articles of secession or the arguments made in southern legislatures in support of secession. 

And, yes, the North was guilty of many things as well for many years before and after. That doesn't change what the Confederacy represented. 

so are you for banning any flag that flew up in the north while thye were owning slaves. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-18-2020, 06:26 PM)Bruce Wrote: so are you for banning any flag that flew up in the north while thye were owning slaves. 

I am against flying any flag of an enemy or any flag that was used specifically to defend slavery or incite violence against minority groups. 

[Bruce]

(06-18-2020, 06:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I am against flying any flag of an enemy or any flag that was used specifically to defend slavery or incite violence against minority groups. 

we see things kind of different on this friend and probably wont ever be exactly alike on our thinking, but i respect your stance and thank you for speaking an honest opinion and being straightfoward unlike the guy fredtoast who i was dealing with in klotsh. i respect an honest man who doesnt mainpulate and lie. like i said we have different views but i respect yours even if i dont totally agree or have a different experience than you.

[BmorePat87]

(06-18-2020, 06:39 PM)Bruce Wrote: we see things kind of different on this friend and probably wont ever be exactly alike on our thinking, but i respect your stance and thank you for speaking an honest opinion and being straightfoward unlike the guy fredtoast who i was dealing with in klotsh. i respect an honest man who doesnt mainpulate and lie. like i said we have different views but i respect yours even if i dont totally agree or have a different experience than you.

I 100% appreciate the civility. I do believe that someone can fly it without prejudice in their hearts, but I think a lot of that has to do with nearly 150 years of a purposeful campaign by southern society to misrepresent the history.

[Bruce]

(06-18-2020, 06:43 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I 100% appreciate the civility. I do believe that someone can fly it without prejudice in their hearts, but I think a lot of that has to do with nearly 150 years of a purposeful campaign by southern society to misrepresent the history.

thers defintely folks who fly the rebel flag for bad reasons. i aint denying that friend. i wish that wasnt the case but it is. that flag for me and my folks is more about family history, moonshining, way of life in the hollers and the good folks that live a certain way an that includes black folk who have always been a part and we all take care of each other.

[jfkbengals]

(06-18-2020, 05:05 PM)Bruce Wrote: i get how blacks feel differnt about it and how it means different things for there people. all im saying is that just cause people has confederate flags dont mean theyre racist or bad. i mean plenty of nasty shit has been done under the american flag but i still love that flag and fly it proudly an dont think you can say the flag isa bad cause bad shit was done in the name of the Flag. 

It doesn't need to be flown to remember history.

Case in point, World War 2 and the Nazi regime are still well known, and always will be.  There are historical collectors who own actual Nazi flags as a piece of history, and they are not racist or Nazi because they own historical artifacts.  But if they are proudly flying those flags, do you think they are just trying to say they want history remembered?  No.  Those who are actually flying Nazi flags are doing so in support of that ideology.  And for those doing it out of pride, it is again pride in that ideology.  And these are historical artifacts we are talking about, which is not what is being displayed.  These are modern productions, not artifacts.  So it is not a matter of preserving the memory of history.

[Bruce]

(06-19-2020, 12:15 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: It doesn't need to be flown to remember history.

Case in point, World War 2 and the Nazi regime are still well known, and always will be.  There are historical collectors who own actual Nazi flags as a piece of history, and they are not racist or Nazi because they own historical artifacts.  But if they are proudly flying those flags, do you think they are just trying to say they want history remembered?  No.  Those who are actually flying Nazi flags are doing so in support of that ideology.  And for those doing it out of pride, it is again pride in that ideology.  And these are historical artifacts we are talking about, which is not what is being displayed.  These are modern productions, not artifacts.  So it is not a matter of preserving the memory of history.

we got lots of blacks around my neck of the woods. lots of rebel flags to. guess what, you know who gets offednded, heres a hint it aint the blacks. its certain types of white folks who wanna be offended for the blacks. the blacks round here tell them they dont need folks to be offended for them. but that dont matter. certain white folks dont wanna hear blacks folks opinons if it dont meet their agenda. 

we take care of each other down here. white folks black folks. men women. young old. whatever. we're all holler folk and we got amercian flags and rebel flags. blacks got symbols of there past and stuff in there yards. we all exicst and we all got each other backs. aint no one get offended by other folks cause we got more important things to do like workin, takin care of our land, worshiping the Lord and raisng our young ones. we Aint got time to walk around llokin for reasons to be mad at each other. aint like we always agree on every single thing but we aint lettin things come between us just cause other people tryna get offended that dont even live among us or know our ways.

[fredtoast]

(06-19-2020, 08:38 PM)Bruce Wrote: we got lots of blacks around my neck of the woods. lots of rebel flags to. guess what, you know who gets offednded, heres a hint it aint the blacks. its certain types of white folks who wanna be offended for the blacks. the blacks round here tell them they dont need folks to be offended for them. but that dont matter. certain white folks dont wanna hear blacks folks opinons if it dont meet their agenda. 

we take care of each other down here. white folks black folks. men women. young old. whatever. we're all holler folk and we got amercian flags and rebel flags. blacks got symbols of there past and stuff in there yards. we all exicst and we all got each other backs. aint no one get offended by other folks cause we got more important things to do like workin, takin care of our land, worshiping the Lord and raisng our young ones. we Aint got time to walk around llokin for reasons to be mad at each other. aint like we always agree on every single thing but we aint lettin things come between us just cause other people tryna get offended that dont even live among us or know our ways.

This is 100% bullshit.

I live as far back in the country as you can get and black "holler folks" here are still offended by the Confederate flag.  I guarantee the ones who live around you are just as offended.  They just never talk to you about it.

But please tell us exactly where this racial utopia where you claim to live exists.  Lots of people will be interested to see it and study the sociology arounds there in order to figure out why it is different from every other place else in the country.

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2020, 04:20 AM)UKWhoDey Wrote:  The North has every bit as much to answer for as the South but no one wants to have that honest conversation in today's society sadly. 

The North fought a war to end slavery.

The South fought a war to preserve slavery.

There was racism in the north but there is no way in hell you can compare the two and say they are the same.

If you believe in "Souther Pride" then wear a fishing hat or a John Deere shirt, or fly an SEC or NASCAR banner.  Use something that is a symbol of a reason WHY you are proud of the South other than the fact they fought a war to preserve the right to own slaves.

[fredtoast]

(06-13-2020, 05:11 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: We have become a selfish society where only our personal opinion matters. 

EXACTLY!!

"The Confedrate battle flag is a universal symbol of white supremacy."

"I don't care.  I like it and my personal opinion is all that matters.  I also think the swastika looks nice so I am going to put it all over my yard and clothes.  If anyone feels uncomfortable because I publically honor countries that promoted murder and oppression of minorities and the white supremacist groups that still preach racism then that is just their fault.  History is meaningless to me."

[fredtoast]

(06-18-2020, 06:08 PM)Bruce Wrote: always good to know all history an not just one side oir another. aint noone totally innocent in our history. https://www.history.com/news/deeper-roots-of-northern-slavery-unearthed

Everyone knows the north was involved in the slave trade.

Everyone also knows the north was the side that fought a war to correct this mistake and end slavery.

So what is your point?

[fredtoast]

I was born and raised in Ohio, but my parents were from the south, and in the small town where I grew up (Franklin) many of the people were from the south who came north for jobs in the 50's and 60's. I moved to Tennessee immediately after I graduated from high school and to help fit in I got a Confederate flag as the front license plate of my car. This was 1981 and I was not as aware of it being a symbol of white supremacy.

So I can understand how some of the less educated toady might still just see it as a symbol of "Southern Pride", but claiming ignorance is no excuse once you know the truth. It is like a child who grew up thinking a swastika, an iron eagle, or a Steelers logo look cool. They might indeed "look cool", but once that child learns what they mean he should stop displaying those symbols.

[fredtoast]

(06-13-2020, 08:02 PM)J24 Wrote: To me if you're against corporate censorship and you're for the banning of the flag you are full of crap. If you're for corporate censorship ( like Colin Kaepernick in the NFL) and against this then you are full of crap.

I am in favor of corporate sponership than bans symbols of violence and hatred against minorities.

It is a false equivelancy to try and compare that to a silent kneeling protest.  It is like saying you can't support freedom if you believe in DUI laws.  There is nothing about kneeling during the anthem that promotes violence or hatred toward anyone.