New Green Deal Proposal

[Benton]

(02-14-2019, 01:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I've heard altering folk's threads to make it appear they typed something they did not is frowned upon by moderation. 

We can address the actual point made if you wish. 

Nobody should be frowning from that post. 

[Belsnickel]

(02-14-2019, 01:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: How did we exploit those massive amounts of natural resources..............wait for it.........here it comes...............

Capitalism

With the help of government. Government assistance comes in the form of land grants, subsidies, and of course during the time of Manifest Destiny the military assistance in clearing out those pesky indigenous folks whose land those resources were on in the first place.

(02-14-2019, 01:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: How have we isolated ourselves from our serious enemies..........wait for it..........here it comes...........

A strong military. 

In all seriousness, it definitely has been mostly our geography that has helped us on this. It's why the history of foreign attacks on our soil isn't very prolific. It's also probably why we get involved in so many things, the military industrial complex needs to make its money and we could defend our country with a fraction of the money we put into defense spending.

[GMDino]

So now we don't have to worry about this we can start moving ahead.

Kudlow tells reporters that the deficits are not alarming because they remain a reasonable share of the overall economy, around 4 percent of GDP. "I don't think that's an issue, a problem,” he says.

— Peter Baker (@peterbakernyt) February 14, 2019

Edit to add that Kudlow also said the deficit was coming down "rapidly" back in June.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/29/larry-kudlow-says-deficit-coming-down-rapidly-against-cbo-evidence.html

Quote:Larry Kudlow, President Donald Trump's top economic advisor, said Friday that "the deficit" is "coming down, and it’s coming down rapidly," appearing to contradict both the Treasury Department's official figures and government estimates about the trajectory of U.S. budget deficits.

Kudlow made the claim during an interview on the Fox Business Network while touting the effects of the tax reform law signed late last year.

"As the economy gears up, more people working, better jobs and careers, those revenues come rolling in and the deficit, which is the other criticism, is coming down, and it’s coming down rapidly," Kudlow said. "Growth solves a lot of problems.”

But data from the Congressional Budget Office, a nonpartisan government agency, tells a different story. The CBO said on June 7 that the federal deficit was $530 billion so far in the 2018 fiscal year — $97 billion more than it was at this point last year.

Of course it just passed 22 Trillion for the first time ever.

[Dill]

(02-13-2019, 07:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: That's not entirely true. Sure, the US is a big country full of brilliant people and brilliant doctors and there are specialists on many fields there, ones that maybe can't be found elsewhere. But you're not really ahead of western Europe in terms of high-quality medicine, and there are specialists also in Germany and other countries you won't find anywhere else either. And that the US has a lot of high-quality care and people wouldn't change through healthcare for all. There's also still money to be made even with universal healthcare. Ask Bayer.

As someone who has spent many years under both German and US healthcare systems, I can not only vouch for the quality, but remind people that ACCESS is important too.  The biggest difference between the US and Europe is that quality care is not only cheaper but easier to get, in Germany at least. I still can't believe I have to submit bills to insurance companies so they can decide whether they have to pay, and wait for months sometimes for treatment. All of which costs twice what I paid in Germany.

Also, I once had the choice between having my 5 year old daughter treated for leukemia in Germany or in the US.  I chose Germany. American doctors at the time also concurred--the Germans had a higher success rate in treating that disease.  Many people would make choices like that if they could.  The U.S. is better at breast and prostate cancer though.  It's because we have capitalism.

Your mention of Bayer AG, which has recently swallowed up Cargill and Monsanto, was just to remind us of all the world leading chemical/pharmaceutical companies headquartered outside the US, right.  We still got more of them! At least of any one country.  So we are still number one, sort of, depending on how you count.

(02-13-2019, 07:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: Again, Europe. Scandinavia, Germany, hell my own country was dominated by a socialist party for a long time and we are wealthy, our quality of life is deemed higher - and at least not lower - than in the US, we have less crime, we have roaring economies too, we invent stuff, we do top-notch research too, we are quite smiilar to the US in almost every aspect and are capitalist nations as well.

LOL and now your government is dominated by a clique of far right Burschenschaftern. Howz THAT that going to turn out for the quality of life and top-notch research in your advanced capitalist nation?

Can't play "Besseroesti" with us anymore.

[fredtoast]

(02-14-2019, 01:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: We can address the actual point made if you wish

Did not realize you needed our permission to respond. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-14-2019, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Did not realize you needed our permission to respond. 

I did respond; so not sure what you're getting at.  The issue comes when you change folk's posts to make it appear they said something they did not. 

We have enough of folks telling other what they said in this forum, we don't actually need them changing the content. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-14-2019, 02:20 AM)Benton Wrote: Nobody should be frowning from that post. 

Oh, I'm sure they won't.

[Dill]

(02-14-2019, 01:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: How did we exploit those massive amounts of natural resources..............wait for it.........here it comes...............

Capitalism

How have we isolated ourselves from our serious enemies..........wait for it..........here it comes...........

A strong military. 

Oh dear!

The Atlantic Ocean just said "Thanks a lot" on its Facebook page and unfriended the U.S.

[Dill]

(02-12-2019, 06:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I stop right about where she stated Global Warming is related to the gender wage gap.

There's nothing scientific about relating Climate change to Gender wage gap.

IMO everyone in the climate change category should be slamming, not justifying this document. It only emboldens those that dispute the phenomenon. I think Pelosci was even smart enough to ridicule it.

Where did she state that? I can't find it. Or what do you mean "related"?

She isn't saying/implying the gender gap is CAUSED by climate change, is she?

[Dill]

(02-13-2019, 10:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: First, let me start by saying that the Green New Deal that was put out there was garbage from a wonk point-of-view. I'm not going to get into specifics because I have to go audit someone and the post would be a lengthy one, but the main gist is that it wasn't a very well thought-out framework. This isn't to say I disagree with everything in it, but when I read through what I could find of the document I was not at all impressed with the thought that went into it.

I know you're busy, but I wish you'd have been more specific about the "garbage" part.

Judging from your past posts on policy issues, I am guessing that over-general formulations of problems and policy goals rubbed you the wrong way.

E.g.,  2. L, while "cleaning up existing hazardous waste and abandoned sites" seems specific enough (work crews could start tomorrow if funded), but "ensuring economic development and sustainability on those sites" doesn't immediately bring policies to mind. Go to the cleaned sites and look around and think of ideas?  Not an insurmountable problem at all, but the solution is not clearly envisioned; the language just gestures in that direction, and this and every other proposal is complicated by inclusion of every imaginable stakeholder as well. 

Then the collection of so many individually worthy goals together, all under this one umbrella, makes it almost certain they cannot be funded together or receive effective oversight from a Green New Deal central. While I applaud the constant demand for buy in and "consultation" from formerly marginalized demographics, that will also make this new New Deal unwieldy and impractical. In addition to opposition from declared opponents, this collection of "stakeholders" will be infighting from the get go, since many of these goals will conflict with one another, forcing priorities and creating policy losers. While a big supporter of the first New Deal, I am also thinking of how much of what was proposed was clogged in Congress or couldn't get past the courts. It really required clear legislative targets and massive support of citizenry and party.

That said though, after reading the GND twice I can't find a goal I really disagree with.  I'm happy AOC has got this online with people talking about it, so that a debate over solutions (and the needed setting of priorities) can begin, which will hopefully, finally, drag more of our right wing friends into recognition something needs to be done.  I don't buy the claim this will hurt more than help the climate change movement, or that this is simply the LEFTWING CRAZY counterpart to RIGHTWING CRAZY.  Leftwing Crazy, from abolition of slavery to women's suffrage to the 8-hour day to insurance coverage for people  with pre-existing conditions, tends to become law of the land. If that progression stops, it won't be good for the country.

Any way, this GND seems to me certainly better thought out and approving of worthier goals than the anti-communism opposed to it. The question is how to make it more practical.  

[*bfine32*]

(02-14-2019, 08:19 PM)Dill Wrote: Where did she state that? I can't find it. Or what do you mean "related"?

She isn't saying/implying the gender gap is CAUSED by climate change, is she?

I mean related in the terms she used related when she said it was a related issue in her proposal. 

It's like on the first page. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-14-2019, 07:15 PM)Dill Wrote: Oh dear!

The Atlantic Ocean just said "Thanks a lot" on its Facebook page and unfriended the U.S.

Who knew the Atlantic was such an invasion stopper. I think all countries can abolish their Navies now. The folk in PnR have cracked the code. 

[hollodero]

(02-14-2019, 01:07 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL and now your government is dominated by a clique of far right Burschenschaftern. Howz THAT that going to turn out for the quality of life and top-notch research in your advanced capitalist nation?

Can't play "Besseroesti" with us anymore.

Yeah, sadly, somehow I still could. While our sturdy right-wing warriors are an embarrassment and our young chancellor is nothing but a mask hiding nothing, every other day I find myself being glad that at least we have no Trump and no one of those rather awful folks is close to being like Trump. They don't really do much, really. What our "big scandals" and "major mishaps" are, Trump usually gets done things like those before lunch.

Also, I would never play that game. I'm a Schlechterösi. My small narrow country created small narrow people, and we are not a great nation. You've been in the neighbourhood, it can't have stayed hidden from you :)

- But our healthcare works better for the people at obviously lower costs and we have less crime and less social tensions.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-14-2019, 11:05 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, sadly, somehow I still could. While our sturdy right-wing warriors are an embarrassment and our young chancellor is nothing but a mask hiding nothing, every other day I find myself being glad that at least we have no Trump and no one of those rather awful folks is close to being like Trump. They don't really do much, really. What our "big scandals" and "major mishaps" are, Trump usually gets done things like those before lunch.

Also, I would never play that game. I'm a Schlechterösi. My small narrow country created small narrow people, and we are not a great nation. You've been in the neighbourhood, it can't have stayed hidden from you :)

- But our healthcare works better for the people at obviously lower costs and we have less crime and less social tensions.

Is that another way of saying “homogenous”?

I am glad to see you have something nice to say about your country even though there are things you don’t like. A lot of people have trouble with that.

[hollodero]

(02-14-2019, 11:30 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Is that another way of saying “homogenous”?

That is a tough one. Sure, we do not have a formerly enslaved different ethnicity amongst our citizens, that comes with uniquie issues my country can't match. But we're not that homogenous. The iron curtain used to be at our borders, and amongst other folks many Yugoslavians came here and now build some kind of more or less well tolerated subgroup here. The war in the 90's increased that influx. We also have quite a lot of Turkish people, and I think an Austrian and a Turkish family are at least not less culture-clashy as a black/hispanic/white one in the US. And there's some refugees. The countryside is something else, but Vienna is a town of many cultures, many ethnicities and many languages.

(02-14-2019, 11:30 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I am glad to see you have something nice to say about your country even though there are things you don’t like. A lot of people have trouble with that.

We also have good ski-jumpers, almost as good as the Slovenian, Polnish, German or Japanese ones. That's nice too. We also have beautiful mountains. And I don't just say that because it's a felony here to say otherwise. They are beautiful. Come and see and leave a lot of dollars.
Also, skiing is fun and not at all a super expensive mass hypnosis, and we do have good health care for our beloved skiers, you should totally try it out! It's kind of a package deal.

- But is there really one US-American that doesn't believe the US are the greatest nation ever built and a shining city on a hill? From what I feel, you all believe that unequivocally.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-14-2019, 11:05 PM)hollodero Wrote: - But our healthcare works better for the people at obviously lower costs and we have less crime and less social tensions.

Give it time.

(02-15-2019, 12:12 AM)hollodero Wrote: - But is there really one US-American that doesn't believe the US are the greatest nation ever built and a shining city on a hill? From what I feel, you all believe that unequivocally.

Name a better one and your reasons for doing so.  At the very least it will spark an interesting discussion.

[hollodero]

(02-15-2019, 01:27 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Give it time.

We gave it time. Turns out a society where you are less likely to die of a curable disease because you can't afford treatment creates less bitterness and less desperation. It might sound surprising, but it really has a positive effect on society.

(02-15-2019, 01:27 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Name a better one and your reasons for doing so.  At the very least it will spark an interesting discussion.

I didn't say I necessarily disagree with the statement or that I think there are "better" nations out there. I merely stated that US americans usually don't indulge in exercices of false modesty on that one, and well, you're exhibit A now. Nothing wrong with that.

But the US certainly is not perfect. And with your line of thinking, one could also justify, say, those massive lobbying efforts in Washington. Show me one nation that doesn't have that kind of powerful donors and interest groups that is better than the US! Show me one nation that doesn't gerrymander that is better... you get what I'm saying. I consider that a logical flaw in some of your arguments.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-15-2019, 12:12 AM)hollodero Wrote: That is a tough one. Sure, we do not have a formerly enslaved different ethnicity amongst our citizens, that comes with uniquie issues my country can't match. But we're not that homogenous. The iron curtain used to be at our borders, and amongst other folks many Yugoslavians came here and now build some kind of more or less well tolerated subgroup here. The war in the 90's increased that influx. We also have quite a lot of Turkish people, and I think an Austrian and a Turkish family are at least not less culture-clashy as a black/hispanic/white one in the US. And there's some refugees. The countryside is something else, but Vienna is a town of many cultures, many ethnicities and many languages.



We also have good ski-jumpers, almost as good as the Slovenian, Polnish, German or Japanese ones. That's nice too. We also have beautiful mountains. And I don't just say that because it's a felony here to say otherwise. They are beautiful. Come and see and leave a lot of dollars.
Also, skiing is fun and not at all a super expensive mass hypnosis, and we do have good health care for our beloved skiers, you should totally try it out! It's kind of a package deal.

- But is there really one US-American that doesn't believe the US are the greatest nation ever built and a shining city on a hill? From what I feel, you all believe that unequivocally.

First day here? Let me introduce you around.

And we could have better ski jumpers if we wanted. We could have the best. Really really talented ones. We choose not to. Only the greatest can do that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2019, 02:40 AM)hollodero Wrote: We gave it time. Turns out a society where you are less likely to die of a curable disease because you can't afford treatment creates less bitterness and less desperation. It might sound surprising, but it really has a positive effect on society.

When I said that I mean from this point forward.  See how sustainable this model is given the new challenges that Europe faces.

Quote:I didn't say I necessarily disagree with the statement or that I think there are "better" nations out there. I merely stated that US americans usually don't indulge in exercices of false modesty on that one, and well, you're exhibit A now. Nothing wrong with that.

A statement of fact is just that.  False modesty is worse than outright braggadocio.  The US is the wealthiest most powerful nation the world has ever known, for various reasons.  

Quote:But the US certainly is not perfect. And with your line of thinking, one could also justify, say, those massive lobbying efforts in Washington. Show me one nation that doesn't have that kind of powerful donors and interest groups that is better than the US! Show me one nation that doesn't gerrymander that is better... you get what I'm saying. I consider that a logical flaw in some of your arguments.

Perfect?  Far from it to be sure.  There are flaws built into our founding documents (the 3/5's compromise for instance).  We also have several "original sins" as it were.  However, using just WW2 as an example, what other time in history did the conqueror not only not demand reparations from the conquered but actually spent time and money to get them back on their feet?  The very systems you tout in Austria and other European nations are only possible because of those efforts.  I'm not saying there weren't self serving reasons, or that anyone owes us anything, for it, I'm merely using it as an example to prove my point.

[Dill]

(02-14-2019, 11:05 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, sadly, somehow I still could. While our sturdy right-wing warriors are an embarrassment and our young chancellor is nothing but a mask hiding nothing, every other day I find myself being glad that at least we have no Trump and no one of those rather awful folks is close to being like Trump. They don't really do much, really. What our "big scandals" and "major mishaps" are, Trump usually gets done things like those before lunch.

   -->     -->       -->        -->       -->   -->    -->     :whiteflag:

(02-14-2019, 11:05 PM)hollodero Wrote: - But our healthcare works better for the people at obviously lower costs and we have less crime and less social tensions.

Not for INSURANCE COMPANIES and THE MORE PROFITABLE HOSPITALS! 

We are still that shining health care conglomerate on a hill.