New Leaked Russian Documents

[Bengalfan4life27c]

It must be nice being a GOP/Trump supporters to live in a bubble. anything they don't like is fake and the deepstate. Things they do like are unequivocally true regardless of source

[Dill]

(07-18-2021, 12:58 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: It must be nice being a GOP/Trump supporters to live in a bubble. anything they don't like is fake and the deepstate. Things they do like are unequivocally true regardless of source

I'm glad someone else noticed this. 

We get GOP OUTRAGE over fake scandals from Benghazi to the Biden Crime Family, 

while they and RWM fall in line with Trump on the Russia "Hoax", the impeachment "witchhunts," the "China virus,"

and finally the BIG LIE, which continues to threaten our democracy by driving the current plague of voter suppression laws.

The MSM, especially the NYT and WaPo, have sorted all that pretty well.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-18-2021, 12:58 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: It must be nice being a GOP/Trump supporters to live in a bubble. anything they don't like is fake and the deepstate. Things they do like are unequivocally true regardless of source

(07-20-2021, 12:24 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm glad someone else noticed this. 

We get GOP OUTRAGE over fake scandals from Benghazi to the Biden Crime Family, 

while they and RWM fall in line with Trump on the Russia "Hoax", the impeachment "witchhunts," the "China virus,"

and finally the BIG LIE, which continues to threaten our democracy by driving the current plague of voter suppression laws.

The MSM, especially the NYT and WaPo, have sorted all that pretty well.

If either of you ever wonder why right leaning people increasingly distance themselves from left leaning sources/people, simply reread these posts.  Your posts literally drip with condescension, and are hardly unique in that regard.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(07-20-2021, 01:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If either of you ever wonder why right leaning people increasingly distance themselves from left leaning sources/people, simply reread these posts.  Your posts literally drip with condescension, and are hardly unique in that regard.

The dumb thing is what the describe can easily apply to leftist as well as right wing people.

[Dill]

(07-20-2021, 01:43 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: The dumb thing is what the describe can easily apply to leftist as well as right wing people.

No, it cannot. 

"Both sides" have not swallowed Trump's BIG LIE that the election was stolen, and there is no "left" equivalent of such mass and willing deception.

"Both sides" aren't spreading disinformation about COVID, discouraging vaccination. Again no "left" equivalent.

"Both sides" don't place their party leader above rule of law.

"Both sides" don't dismiss the scientific consensus about climate change.

etc. etc. etc.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-20-2021, 01:43 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: The dumb thing is what the describe can easily apply to leftist as well as right wing people.

To be sure, just on different subjects.

(07-20-2021, 02:08 PM)Dill Wrote: No, it cannot. 

"Both sides" have not swallowed Trump's BIG LIE that the election was stolen, and there is no "left" equivalent of such mass and willing deception.

"Both sides" aren't spreading disinformation about COVID, discouraging vaccination. Again no "left" equivalent.

"Both sides" don't place their party leader above rule of law.

"Both sides" don't dismiss the scientific consensus about climate change.  

etc. etc. etc.

Yes, it can.

Do both sides claim police are on the prowl to murder "people of color"?

Do both sides subvert the rule of law by mischarging criminals because the system is "inherently racist"?

Do both sides have daily riots in certain cities because they're "fighting fascism"?

Do both sides ignore the actions of a repressive regime involved in genocide or excuse the actions of the regime in Cuba?

I could go on, but I think the point is made.  Your side is just as full of shit and unreasonable, just about different topics.  I know this threatens your smug condescension bubble, but so be it. 

[Dill]

(07-20-2021, 02:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, it can.

Do both sides claim police are on the prowl to murder "people of color"?

Do both sides subvert the rule of law by mischarging criminals because the system is "inherently racist"?

Do both sides have daily riots in certain cities because they're "fighting fascism"?

Do both sides ignore the actions of a repressive regime involved in genocide or excuse the actions of the regime in Cuba?

I could go on, but I think the point is made.  Your side is just as full of shit and unreasonable, just about different topics.  I know this threatens your smug condescension bubble, but so be it. 

LOL both sides are certainly not fighting fascism. That's the point you drove home.

And I don't think "my side" is subverting the rule of law by addressing systemic racism. Quite the opposite. 

And I can't tell whether ANY side ignores repression and genocide in a regime so long as that regime remains unnamed.

But your post teaches us something about how faulty equivalence drives bad judgment. 

What percentage of the GOP believe that Biden stole the election from Trump and what percentage of Democrats believe police are on the prowl to murder "people of color," or are engaging in "daily riots"? 

My post contained examples of mass belief in erroneous Trump claims which are now driving the policies of an entire political party across the U.S. because TENS OF MILLIONS believe them. And belief in those claims indicates a complicit RWM and inadequate vetting by a mass of individual voters. You have presented NOTHING comparable.

Your post is a smattering of actions and positions you do not agree with, but which are either unrepresentative of the mass of voters centrist, liberal and left which you comprehensively call "the left," or the kind of positions arising from actual policy research and historical precedent, and about which reasonable people might disagree.  

So your comparison here is about as balanced as your "Whattabout Hillary?" on the Big Lie thread. 

It's like you decided the claim was that only one side had actors who represent extremes on the current political spectrum, and so you set out to school everyone on that--ignoring the real problem of mass delusion, fed and maintained by both right wing politicians and the right wing press, which my post foregrounded. 

So still no equivalence, rather an illustration of what goes wrong when people assume "both sides" are simply symmetrical mirror images of one another.

They are not. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-20-2021, 12:24 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm glad someone else noticed this. 

We get GOP OUTRAGE over fake scandals from Benghazi to the Biden Crime Family, 

while they and RWM fall in line with Trump on the Russia "Hoax", the impeachment "witchhunts," the "China virus,"

and finally the BIG LIE, which continues to threaten our democracy by driving the current plague of voter suppression laws.

The MSM, especially the NYT and WaPo, have sorted all that pretty well.

You might want to check in and get some updates regarding that which is in bold, assuming you're referring to Hunter Biden and the Lab Leak.

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-20-2021, 02:08 PM)Dill Wrote: "Both sides" don't dismiss the scientific consensus about climate change. 

I feel like you lobbed one in here for anyone who wants to take a swing, and it's regarding a very sensitive scientific subject that isn't at all on the left's side.

I would point it out but it appears it's discussion on here is a tad bit dicey.   It's tee'd up for anyone else that wants to take a cut though.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-20-2021, 03:15 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL both sides are certainly not fighting fascism. That's the point you drove home.

Correct, neither side is.  One side doesn't think there's any fascism to fight (pro tip, there isn't) and the other is a bunch of LARPing a holes who think they're storming the beach at Normandy (pro tip, they aren't).

Quote:And I don't think "my side" is subverting the rule of law by addressing systemic racism. Quite the opposite. 

Of course you don't.  Equally obvious is your, and your ilks, completely blinkered and extremely exaggerated interpretation of what constitutes that.

Quote:And I can't tell whether ANY side ignores repression and genocide in a regime so long as that regime remains unnamed.

Yeah, you're right.  There weren't prominent Dems blaming the Cuba situation on anyone but the Cuban government.  You're equally "correct" that the Dems routinely condemn Chinese human rights abuses.  I mean it's not like the "woke" entertainment industry, the NBA and other "woke" organizations routinely take their marching orders from China in order to make a buck.  Never mind the genocide boys, the real oppression is here in the US!

Quote:But your post teaches us something about how faulty equivalence drives bad judgment. 

Pontification mode enabled.  

Quote:What percentage of the GOP believe that Biden stole the election from Trump and what percentage of Democrats believe police are on the prowl to murder "people of color," or are engaging in "daily riots"? 

Unknown.  If you listen to the loudest voice you'd think a lot.  

Quote:My post contained examples of mass belief in erroneous Trump claims which are now driving the policies of an entire political party across the U.S. because TENS OF MILLIONS believe them. And belief in those claims indicates a complicit RWM and inadequate vetting by a mass of individual voters. You have presented NOTHING comparable.

Because I don't give a shit trying to convince you of anything.  A simple internet search would provide countless examples.

Quote:Your post is a smattering of actions and positions you do not agree with, but which are either unrepresentative of the mass of voters centrist, liberal and left which you comprehensively call "the left," or the kind of positions arising from actual policy research and historical precedent, and about which reasonable people might disagree.  

Wait, I call people "the left" and that's a problem, but you routinely engage in the same behavior and it's not?  More of "Dill doesn't see it".

Quote:So your comparison here is about as balanced as your "Whattabout Hillary?" on the Big Lie thread. 

So, 100% accurate then?  

Quote:It's like you decided the claim was that only one side had actors who represent extremes on the current political spectrum, and so you set out to school everyone  on that--ignoring the real problem of mass delusion, fed and maintained by both right wing politicians and the right wing press, which my post foregrounded. 

Tell you what, the next time you acknowledge wrongdoing by the left (which would be the first time), I'll start giving you more of the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:So still no equivalence, rather an illustration of what goes wrong when people assume "both sides" are simply symmetrical mirror images of one another.

They are not. 

Correct, they both have different topics they're full of shit about.  Problem is "Dill only sees" the wrongdoings of the far right.  Your inconsistency is amazing, especially for an old man who you'd think would have a broader perspective on life.  But c'est le vie I guess.

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-20-2021, 03:15 PM)Dill Wrote: What percentage of the GOP believe that Biden stole the election from Trump and what percentage of Democrats believe police are on the prowl to murder "people of color," or are engaging in "daily riots"?

Probably a similar percentage to that of the DNC that beleived that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election.

[Dill]

(07-20-2021, 03:42 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I feel like you lobbed one in here for anyone who wants to take a swing, and it's regarding a very sensitive scientific subject that isn't at all on the left's side.

I would point it out but it appears it's discussion on here is a tad bit dicey.   It's tee'd up for anyone else that wants to take a cut though.

The tee could be a little straighter, I guess. 

I don't know what you mean when you say a "subject" isn't "all on the left's side." 

My point would be that the greatest organized resistance to the scientific consensus on climate change in the U.S. is currently to be found in the Trump party.

And I'll add that the resistance was initially orchestrated by Big Oil, though they are no longer in control of the narrative.

Now the point is ready for a swing.

[Dill]

(07-20-2021, 03:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct, neither side is.  One side doesn't think there's any fascism to fight (pro tip, there isn't) and the other is a bunch of LARPing a holes who think they're storming the beach at Normandy (pro tip, they aren't).

Of course you don't.  Equally obvious is your, and your ilks, completely blinkered and extremely exaggerated interpretation of what constitutes that.

Yeah, you're right.  There weren't prominent Dems blaming the Cuba situation on anyone but the Cuban government.  You're equally "correct" that the Dems routinely condemn Chinese human rights abuses.  I mean it's not like the "woke" entertainment industry, the NBA and other "woke" organizations routinely take their marching orders from China in order to make a buck.  Never mind the genocide boys, the real oppression is here in the US!

Pontification mode enabled.  

Unknown.  If you listen to the loudest voice you'd think a lot.  

Because I don't give a shit trying to convince you of anything.  A simple internet search would provide countless examples.

Wait, I call people "the left" and that's a problem, but you routinely engage in the same behavior and it's not?  More of "Dill doesn't see it".

So, 100% accurate then?  

Tell you what, the next time you acknowledge wrongdoing by the left (which would be the first time), I'll start giving you more of the benefit of the doubt.

Correct, they both have different topics they're full of shit about.  Problem is "Dill only sees" the wrongdoings of the far right.  Your inconsistency is amazing, especially for an old man who you'd think would have a broader perspective on life.  But c'est le vie I guess.

This is rather scattershot--quips and reaction. And again you want ME to find examples supporting YOUR claims.

Can you tidy this up into an argument someone can responsibly address?  

Where are the examples of mass delusion/misinformation leading the Dem party? 

If you don't have support for your claims, then don't make them; stop asking me to find it for you. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-20-2021, 03:52 PM)Dill Wrote: The tee could be a little straighter, I guess. 

I don't know what you mean when you say a "subject" isn't "all on the left's side." 

My point would be that the greatest organized resistance to the scientific consensus on climate change in the U.S. is currently to be found in the Trump party.

And I'll add that the resistance was initially orchestrated by Big Oil, though they are no longer in control of the narrative.

Now the point is ready for a swing.

Yeah, I'm not taking it.  It's been made clear lately to tread lightly on here when talking about it.

What current issue that involves science isn't on the left's side?  Think about it long enough and you'll figure it out.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-20-2021, 04:03 PM)Dill Wrote: This is rather scattershot--quips and reaction. And again you want ME to find examples supporting YOUR claims.

No, I don't. Anyone who cares to can find numerous examples with a simple google search.

Quote:Can you tidy this up into an argument someone can responsibly address?  

Not for you, no.

Quote:Where are the examples of mass delusion/misinformation leading the Dem party? 

Wait, wasn't my example that the ways in which both sides engage in stupid shit are different?  I could use "defund the police" as an example.  The utterly false perception that police routinely kill unarmed "people of color" is endlessly perpetuated by the Democratic party.  I suppose when you cater to extremists you paint yourself into a corner, much like the GOP did.

Quote:If you don't have support for your claims, then don't make them; stop asking me to find it for you. 

I'll do whatever I like within the forum rules.  But thanks for the lecture, Dad. 

[Vas Deferens]

[SunsetBengal]

(07-20-2021, 02:08 PM)Dill Wrote: "Both sides" have not swallowed Trump's BIG LIE that the election was stolen, and there is no "left" equivalent of such mass and willing deception.

You state that like it's a fact, but to me, it sounds more like a directed talking point to avoid scrutiny over what transpired.

[Dill]

(07-20-2021, 04:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Wait, wasn't my example that the ways in which both sides engage in stupid shit are different?  I could use "defund the police" as an example.  The utterly false perception that police routinely kill unarmed "people of color" is endlessly perpetuated by the Democratic party.  I suppose when you cater to extremists you paint yourself into a corner, much like the GOP did.

Is this the argument part? 

Yes, you trotted out some examples of "stupid shit", though we don't agree on all. 

But to repeat, I have not claimed only one side has some crazies who do stupid shit. 
You keep wanting THAT to be the claim so you can talk about Portland or ANTIFA or whatever.

My point was that mass delusions guide only one sides legislation and member behavior--all maintained by ideology-driven news.

"Both sides" don't do it. Still my claim.

"Defund the police" is an example of what, exactly? Certainly not of a comparable mass delusion. That's a slogan used by some demanding police reform. Can you sort that out a bit, perhaps consider some evidence to focus the claim so people can judge whether it constitutes a mass delusion based primarily on claims by Biden? 

Likely a majority of Dems would advocate police reform--a reasonable desire--but is there evidence a majority want departments defunded? What is Biden's role?

If we keep reading about unarmed black people killed by the police, it should not be surprising that some conclude this might be a problem.

And it is a fact such killings occur; the debate is only about what one can infer from them. 

Such facts are not the basis of mass delusion in the sense that Trump's Big Lie is, founded on nothing but rumors he himself has started or amplified. The trial of officer Chauvin was not based upon a rumor.

[NATI BENGALS]

BRB gonna go smash my nuts in a car door. It takes away some of the pain from the Trump and qanon pro insurrection anti-democracy party lecturing me about both sides doing it.

[Dill]

(07-20-2021, 03:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Probably a similar percentage to that of the DNC that beleived that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election.

Hey this looks like a good point to explore. I found a poll that said 53% of Americans still think Trump colluded with Russia. That was right after Mueller completed his Report. And I could link to polls showing 53% of Republicans still think the election was stolen.  Neat.

So you and I could maybe sort this out through a definitive comparison, starting with this question--

What are the FACTUAL GROUNDS of each each party's "delusion," if these diverse beliefs are such.

And what, for the most part, has been inferred from them? 

I'll start the ball rolling by claiming that grounds for belief in Trump's collusion with Russia starts with what our intel services revealed about the people in his campaign who offered to collude with Russia or actually did. That followed by more circumstantial evidence, like Trump's inability to criticize Putin and his exposing intel to the FSB, even AFTER elected. Dems tend to follow the Mueller report: there was collusion on the part of Trump's campaign, but Trump's actions did not themselves rise to the level of prosecution.

Grounds for the Big Lie are, so far, just lies, stuff Trump, Giuliani and other eager Trumpers claimed but which could not survive investigation, as could, say, FBI, intel on Trump aids.  So what have the majority of Republicans concluded on the basis of these, er, "non facts"? That the election was stolen. And they are still looking for evidence to put Trump back in power.