New Mexico governor deliberately violates Constitution

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-13-2023, 08:30 AM)Dill Wrote: Yeah, "Krystal," the woman in the OP video, also mentions calling out the US military during the Floyd riots too. Then of course there was the 1/6 conspiracy. That wasn't "performative nonsense" but, it seems to me, an actual, authoritarian and anti-constitutional power grab of the sort which the 2A is often invoked to safeguard against. That power grab resulted in an impeachment charge--which the Senate could not follow through.

Incorrect.  The Senate did follow through with it and rejected it.

Quote:Seems like the NM governor is responding to a segment of her constituency that wants something--anything--done about gun violence. 

Oh, well that's ok then.  As long as enough people want the Constitution ignored then that's fine.  This rational is a far greater threat to our democracy than what happened on 01/06.

Quote:The governor's rationale, so far as I grasp it, has got me wondering about how "states of emergency" are to be handled by state and federal government, if the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights can never ever be suspended by anyone under any circumstances.  (For the record, I don't think the shootings which prompted her TEMPORARY ban on carrying firearms constituted a state of emergency.)

Wonder no more.

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/article-i/clauses/763

Constitutional rights cannot be suspended at the state level as they are guaranteed by the Federal government.  As for your conclusion that she is not responding to a state of emergency, not that it would matter if she was, what should be the consequences for her deliberately violating her oath of office?

Quote:I can envision situations in which, in the interest of public safety, temporarily banning the carrying of firearms--especially open carry--would be a good thing, starting with violent riots. Constitutional rights can and have been suspended in the case of public health emergencies, and I believe under the "plenary police power" left to states. But the Constitution leaves "emergency powers" and the like more directly in the hands of the legislative rather than the executive branch. Now I wonder if and how that can be done in emergencies, if never ever is really a Constitutional principle. Now is the time I most miss input from Bpat and Bels. 

You're rather answering your own question here.  I'm curious, do you condemn the clearly illegal actions taking by this governor?

[Bengalion]

(09-13-2023, 08:47 AM)Dill Wrote: You've got me wondering about a lot of this. Who is in charge of "the left's" infiltration of the educational system? 
How and from where are they directing it? Are there names and organizations we should know about? 

Also, how are people unschooled in "civics and economics" helpful to "the left"?  You imply this is an outcome they desire.

Would the problem you see here be addressed to some degree if Judeo-Christian values were somehow more prominently
integrated with public education?

Studies show that 7,243 professors at America’s top 40 colleges, 3,623 professors are registered Democrats (50.02%), whereas just 314 are registered Republicans (8.67%). This means that Democrat professors at America’s top colleges outnumber Republican professors by a ratio of nearly 12:1. Proof of left-wing indoctrination in America’s schools can be further seen in data on young Americans. According to a 2018 Gallup poll, just 45% of millennials view capitalism positively. To the contrary, 51% of millennials view socialism positively. This means that young Americans largely support socialism over capitalism. These views conflict with the views of every single other generation of Americans. Just 28% of the Silent Generation, 30% of Baby Boomers, and 41% of Generation X view socialism positively. 

Source: https://amac.us/newsline/society/leftist-indoctrination-in-americas-schools/

Furthermore, in 2020, 69% of American college students were estimated to have voted for Joe Biden, while just 19% of American college students were estimated to have voted for Donald Trump. This gap is larger than any other gap among any age group, making current American college students the most liberal age group in America. This, again, is not a coincidence, and is a direct result of systemic liberal indoctrination in both the education system, as well as college campuses.

Children’s fairy tales like Cinderella and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs are now criticised for favouring heterosexual love, classic novels like Moby-Dick for killing whales, and To Kill a Mockingbird for being written by a white woman. Sudents are asked to deconstruct Macbeth as an example of “patriarchal concerns with order and gender” and to undertake “an eco-critical reading of a selection of the poetry of either Wordsworth or Les Murray”. The argument is put that the literary works chosen for Years 11 and 12 are guilty of prioritising “heterosexual and cisgender identities as the norms against which to define the other”. The solution is for English teachers to embrace a diverse curriculum that “celebrates diverse sexualities”. These miresable people think that teachers should stop teaching pronouns like she and he in the classroom and instead ensure “their, they, them" are used as alternatives to gendered pronouns.

The human history has always been a struggle between the good versus the evil. Today the evil has the upper hand because most decent people are too tired and coward to fight back, a pity.

[hollodero]

(09-13-2023, 11:05 AM)Bengalion Wrote: Studies show that 7,243 professors at America’s top 40 colleges, 3,623 professors are registered Democrats (50.02%), whereas just 314 are registered Republicans (8.67%). This means that Democrat professors at America’s top colleges outnumber Republican professors by a ratio of nearly 12:1. Proof of left-wing indoctrination in America’s schools can be further seen in data on young Americans. According to a 2018 Gallup poll, just 45% of millennials view capitalism positively. To the contrary, 51% of millennials view socialism positively. This means that young Americans largely support socialism over capitalism. These views conflict with the views of every single other generation of Americans. Just 28% of the Silent Generation, 30% of Baby Boomers, and 41% of Generation X view socialism positively. 

Source: https://amac.us/newsline/society/leftist-indoctrination-in-americas-schools/

Furthermore, in 2020, 69% of American college students were estimated to have voted for Joe Biden, while just 19% of American college students were estimated to have voted for Donald Trump. This gap is larger than any other gap among any age group, making current American college students the most liberal age group in America. This, again, is not a coincidence, and is a direct result of systemic liberal indoctrination in both the education system, as well as college campuses.

Nothing you mention here is proof of indoctrination. Young people just have different views. And don't like Trump, for example. You take his unpopularity with young people as proof of evil leftist indoctrination? Or even that many prefer the more socialistic European economic model over the current American one? That just takes it too far.
Or put differently, I could just as well claim that the increased popularity of capitalism in former times is proof for rampant indoctrination happening back then - and could cheer for this indoctrination apparently finally being done with. Which would just make as much or little sense as your stance.

(09-13-2023, 11:05 AM)Bengalion Wrote: The human history has always been a struggle between the good versus the evil. Today the evil has the upper hand because most decent people are too tired and coward to fight back, a pity.

And there we go. Good conservatives, evil liberals. You don't have it a size smaller?

[LSUfaninTN]

(09-13-2023, 08:36 AM)Dill Wrote: I wish you could too. Trump is maybe not the best springboard for launching an attack on the dangers of leftist "fascism." 
And that's because of something that actually ended up happening.

Why do you think "the left" has been pushing for "fascism"? 

Have they been arguing that the state is the destiny of its people, 
and that the nation requires a leader above the law, to whom the military and government officials should 
demonstrate personal loyalty?  Without knowing it?

Found one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moJwQXb6W0A

Dude, Trump isn’t a fascist. Too many on the left think fascist just means “mean white guy.” Name one policy he had that was fascist. “He tried to overturn the election”, no, he genuinely believed it was rigged against him. With the Hunter Biden laptop story, the 2 year long frivolous Russia investigation, the way that the media has twisted his words and words of Republicans’ (“don’t say gay”, “Muslim ban”, “stronger borders = xenophobia and racism”), I don’t blame him. 

Here’s a small outline of how the left is displaying fascism:

1) Manipulation of speech. Plenty of examples of this, but one sticks out to me. If you’ll remember, last year we had 2 consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth. This, by definition, is a recession. That’s literally what the word means and has meant ever since it was coined. The White House announced the recession on a Friday, but didn’t call it a recession, and by Monday, the definition for “recession” had changed first on Wikipedia — but only the U.S. part. Look up what they changed the meaning of recession to. Do the research and see it for yourself. George Orwell was an genius. Also, there was the whole “he staged an insurrection” thing… an insurrection is an armed and violent takeover of the government. On January 6th, there was no gunfire from the civilians, and most of them were probably gun owners. How is that an insurrection again? Even so, he didn’t “stage” anything. Look at his last few tweets before Twitter banned him. He specifically called for peaceful protests saying that they were the party of law and order. Media didn’t report that. Just pushed a false narrative.

2) This is more Nazi-esque, but, the obsession with race. Traditional liberalism sought a colorblind society. This is the complete opposite of the left today—the left is absolutely OBSESSED with race. They bring it into every discussion. They categorize people by skin color and demand they act a certain way (“If they don’t vote for me, they ain’t black” - Joe Biden). For a good example of this, look up Candace Owens’ interview on CNN. She’s a black conservative (which, to many on the left means she’s a black white supremacist or Uncle Tom), and the first question she was asked by the anchor was “are you concerned about the color in the White House”? Our race relations now are worse than they were in the 90s, and it is SOLELY inflicted by the left. 

3) Controlling nearly all of mainstream and social media. They protect Biden at every turn. They colluded with Twitter and the FBI to shut down the one story that would’ve sunk Biden’s campaign. They let him get away with reading “end of quote, repeat the line” on a teleprompter, but when Trump tweeted “covfefe” the media went into a frenzy calling for a cognitive ability test. You see people mention stuff on this board alone about things the media ignores that Biden has done, or the democrats have done, that the media will not cover, because it makes him look bad. Try reading them some time. Not all of them are true, but many of them are dead on. 

4) Taking over universities. This has been happening for decades, but now the left is moving into middle schools and elementary schools with trans ideology, to the point where my girlfriend’s kid and her friends came home and said they all want to be or think they are trans. The typical retort is “Christianity is shoved down everyone’s throats too” to which I say… when’s the last time a non-religious kid came home from a public, non religious school and said “I want to be a Christian!”

5) Cancel culture. At first it was cancelling people like David Duke. Now they go after people like Jordan Peterson (Twitter suspension) pretty routinely. The big concern here is that, whether a person actually is a racist or a homophobe, that doesn’t matter. Orwellian “thought crimes” are a weapon of the left; the mere “accusation” that you’re a racist is enough to put a stain on or, if you’re famous enough, ruin your career. I could go on and on about instances were leftist students hijacked public speeches by conservatives by screaming nonsense and stepping up on the stage with signs and such, but you can see plenty of videos of that.  

98% of Twitter employees voted democratic in 2020. 98%. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-13-2023, 11:25 AM)hollodero Wrote: Nothing you mention here is proof of indoctrination. Young people just have different views. And don't like Trump, for example. You take his unpopularity with young people as proof of evil leftist indoctrination? Or even that many prefer the more socialistic European economic model over the current American one? That just takes it too far.
Or put differently, I could just as well claim that the increased popularity of capitalism in former times is proof for rampant indoctrination happening back then - and could cheer for this indoctrination apparently finally being done with. Which would just make as much or little sense as your stance.



And there we go. Good conservatives, evil liberals. You don't have it a size smaller?

Indoctrination is a heavily weighted word, and much like accusations of racism it is bandied about far too casually.  While it is certainly a fact that college professor lean heavily liberal that in no way means they are indoctrinating people with their personal ideology.  I also dislike this accusation as it completely removes the individual agency of the students.  We're not talking about impressionable children here, were talking about legal adults.

As for the good and evil argument, there are certainly those of an authoritarian bent on both sides of the ideological spectrum.  In fact, I don't think it's  stretch to say the further you get out onto the fringes the more authoritarian those people will be.  Where I do think a valid complaint can be made is that public discourse of late really focuses on right wing individuals of this bent and largely ignores the left leaning ones.  Look at the largely positive, at worst neutral coverage of CHAZ/CHOP, especially initially.  If a right wing group took over a section of a city and proclaimed it an independent territory the media would collectively shit their pants.  You're even seeing this in this very thread.  If a GOP governor pulled the exact same kind of stunt it would be met with far more outrage.  DeSantis is routinely labeled a fascist and hasn't done anything close to this.  Like him or not, everything he's done has been permissible under Florida's legal framework.

[treee]

(09-13-2023, 10:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Whatabout isn't really a good response to this topic.  Even allowing for your premise, can you find me an example of a GOP governor not only acknowledging that what they were doing was unconstitutional but that they had the authority to violate their oath f office.  If you can find one please post it, but I can't recall that happening.

I didn't intend to 'what-about' your post, you asked for feedback on what others thought about it. I guess I could have stated it explicitly but it was only implicit: this kind of crap is nothing new. Governors love to push the line on what will actually stand judicial scrutiny. There's almost never any negative consequences and it is red meat for the base. I personally think the first amendment is even more important than the second, so from my perspective their crusade against the separation of church and state is more egregious. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-13-2023, 03:06 PM)treee Wrote: I didn't intend to 'what-about' your post, you asked for feedback on what others thought about it. I guess I could have stated it explicitly but it was only implicit: this kind of crap is nothing new. Governors love to push the line on what will actually stand judicial scrutiny. There's almost never any negative consequences and it is red meat for the base. I personally think the first amendment is even more important than the second, so from my perspective their crusade against the separation of church and state is more egregious. 

My apologies for the misinterpretation.  I don't disagree that these types of overreach aren't exactly uncommon.  What is rather unique about this particular example is the governor flat out stated they knew it was unconstitutional but they could do it anyways because they have that power.  They also said that no right in the constitution is "absolute" nor is hear oath to it.  If we want negative consequences for this type of action then this is by far the best chance to do so in recent memory.

I also agree about the importance of the first amendment, but I don't full understand the correlation you're drawing.  I see far more assaults on first amendment rights from the far left than I do the far right, and least in the past decade or so (if this was the eighties through the early 2000's I'd say the opposite).  Take the proposed law in Michigan for example, which seeks to directly criminalize speech.  Could you provide some examples of what you are describing?

[Belsnickel]

(09-13-2023, 11:05 AM)Bengalion Wrote: According to a 2018 Gallup poll, just 45% of millennials view capitalism positively. To the contrary, 51% of millennials view socialism positively. This means that young Americans largely support socialism over capitalism. These views conflict with the views of every single other generation of Americans. Just 28% of the Silent Generation, 30% of Baby Boomers, and 41% of Generation X view socialism positively. 

Wooo! I am a young American!!!

FWIW, Millennials in 2018 were between 22 and 37. I turned 33 that year.

I'll tell you the real reason my generation doesn't view socialism in the same way, though. We didn't deal with the Cold War. Islamic extremism was our communism. Meanwhile, we saw the failure of trickle-down economics, the dismantling of the middle-class, a continual rise of the Gini Coefficient in the US after decades of it being relatively stable, and all of this the result of the abandonment of the progressive policies of the early twentieth century and a turn towards the more conservative, pro-business-neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism that was the hallmark of the two major parties during our lifetimes.

In short, removing the regulatory system around our market economy resulted in giving us the shaft with the sweet nothings being predominantly anti-brown people instead of anti-communist. So the ones running the show really screwed the pooch on that one and have no one to blame but themselves. The free market sucks, Adam Smith was wrong because people also suck, deal with it.

[Dill]

(09-13-2023, 10:16 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Incorrect.  The Senate did follow through with it and rejected it.

That's what I meant by "didn't follow through." They let him off the charge.

(09-13-2023, 10:16 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:Seems like the NM governor is responding to a segment of her constituency that wants something--anything--done about gun violence. 

Oh, well that's ok then.  As long as enough people want the Constitution ignored then that's fine.  This rational is a far greater threat to our democracy than what happened on 01/06.

Your words, not mine. If enough people want the Constitution "ignored" then what they do is change it. 
No idea what you mean by "rationale" here. That the governor is invoking a "health emergency" in response to gun violence?

Not sure why that sort of thing, which purports to follow law, is a greater threat than an attempt to overthrow a valid election.
You won't get all mad if I ask you to explain, will you?

(09-13-2023, 10:16 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan: Wrote: The governor's rationale, so far as I grasp it, has got me wondering about how "states of emergency" are to be handled by state and federal government, if the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights can never ever be suspended by anyone under any circumstances.  (For the record, I don't think the shootings which prompted her TEMPORARY ban on carrying firearms constituted a state of emergency.)

Wonder no more.
https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/article-i/clauses/763
Constitutional rights cannot be suspended at the state level as they are guaranteed by the Federal government.  As for your conclusion that she is not responding to a state of emergency, not that it would matter if she was, what should be the consequences for her deliberately violating her oath of office?

You're rather answering your own question here.  I'm curious, do you condemn the clearly illegal actions taking by this governor?

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/#:~:text=Massachusetts%2C%20197%20U.S.%2011%20(1905)&text=A%20state%20may%20enact%20a,smallpox%20and%20protect%20public%20health.

Well I'm not a Constitutional scholar, but it seems something like this (suspension of Constitutional rights) has happened before, and the SCOTUS ruled in favor of the state enforcing vaccination as part of a health emergency.  

So it's not clear to me that the Gov. would be violating the Constitution if she were acting on a genuine health emergency. I just don't think this case rises to that though. A riot with many armed participants and deaths might though. 

I do think the governor has made a mistake and don't condone her actions. I'm not on the impeachment bandwagon yet though. I want to get more information and study the law a bit more.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-13-2023, 05:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Wooo! I am a young American!!!

FWIW, Millennials in 2018 were between 22 and 37. I turned 33 that year.

I'll tell you the real reason my generation doesn't view socialism in the same way, though. We didn't deal with the Cold War. Islamic extremism was our communism. Meanwhile, we saw the failure of trickle-down economics, the dismantling of the middle-class, a continual rise of the Gini Coefficient in the US after decades of it being relatively stable, and all of this the result of the abandonment of the progressive policies of the early twentieth century and a turn towards the more conservative, pro-business-neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism that was the hallmark of the two major parties during our lifetimes.

In short, removing the regulatory system around our market economy resulted in giving us the shaft with the sweet nothings being predominantly anti-brown people instead of anti-communist. So the ones running the show really screwed the pooch on that one and have no one to blame but themselves. The free market sucks, Adam Smith was wrong because people also suck, deal with it.

I have a confession to make.  Until very recently I was on board with the "suck it up loser kids" mentality on rent etc.  Just get a roommate like I did I would think.  My friends and I were playing cards last weekend and we discussed the rent situation (one of my friends has his step kids, who are 25 and 31 living in his home and paying $500 a month in rent).  I opined that was very reasonable (it is, he lives in a nice 4 bedroom home in Orange County).  We then got to discussing rent in general, which prompted me to look what my first apartment was currently going for.  This was a two bedroom, one bath, with minimal living room and kitchen that I shared with one of the friends who was there playing cards.  In the mid 90's (I'm 49) it was going for $850 a month, which is reasonable.  The same place is now renting for $2,600 a month, which is more than my mortgage on a nice home in Tustin.  That is effing insane!

I have always been of the opinion that anything that is a necessity should not be wholly subject to the vagaries of the free market.  That is certainly the case with rent and in CA it is out of control.  I would be firmly in the corner of rent control and capping rents at this point.  I also apologize for underestimating just how bad things had become.  I'd still be living with my parents at 30 if I had to deal with the current rent situation.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

She's pushing forward with it. Hopefully she will be personally sued by anyone who is cited for this outrage.

https://sourcenm.com/2023/09/11/govs-office-promises-state-police-will-enforce-gun-ban/

[Belsnickel]

(09-13-2023, 05:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have a confession to make.  Until very recently I was on board with the "suck it up loser kids" mentality on rent etc.  Just get a roommate like I did I would think.  My friends and I were playing cards last weekend and we discussed the rent situation (one of my friends has his step kids, who are 25 and 31 living in his home and paying $500 a month in rent).  I opined that was very reasonable (it is, he lives in a nice 4 bedroom home in Orange County).  We then got to discussing rent in general, which prompted me to look what my first apartment was currently going for.  This was a two bedroom, one bath, with minimal living room and kitchen that I shared with one of the friends who was there playing cards.  In the mid 90's (I'm 49) it was going for $850 a month, which is reasonable.  The same place is now renting for $2,600 a month, which is more than my mortgage on a nice home in Tustin.  That is effing insane!

I have always been of the opinion that anything that is a necessity should not be wholly subject to the vagaries of the free market.  That is certainly the case with rent and in CA it is out of control.  I would be firmly in the corner of rent control and capping rents at this point.  I also apologize for underestimating just how bad things had become.  I'd still be living with my parents at 30 if I had to deal with the current rent situation.

Housing costs are just getting to be a cluster in so many places and there are so many reasons. Some, like a lot of places in California, there isn't enough high-density building happening to meet demand. The city I am in it is a matter of university students from wealthier areas being the target for the housing market resulting in low income families being priced out of the market.

My wife and I would have been stuck in the rent cycle had my FIL not decided he wanted to move up here and we shared a mortgage. He made the down payment and we pay the monthly bill. Our mortgage is about the same our rent was and is, but we just moved out in 2019, so it hasn't been that long.

All in all, there are a lot of issues in our economy that my generation has faced that the ones before us just don't get. The same is true for every generation, but it is always interesting to me how young some people think Millennials still are. I mean, we're the ones who should have children in school right now, buying houses, holding middle-management roles, etc. There are a lot of reasons that these things just aren't true, though, and many of them can be attributed in large part to the deregulation movement. Unfortunately, because most people don't like to live in a world of nuance and instead view things in black and white, we get the false dichotomy we saw in that poll from 2018. The reality is a much more complicated one filled with a variety of public policies that could put a check on our capitalist system while maintaining a healthy private sector.

[LSUfaninTN]

(09-13-2023, 06:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: My wife and I would have been stuck in the rent cycle had my FIL not decided he wanted to move up here and we shared a mortgage. He made the down payment and we pay the monthly bill. Our mortgage is about the same our rent was and is, but we just moved out in 2019, so it hasn't been that long.

It is pretty frustrating, I keep hearing "well you guys make more money so that's why houses are more expensive." I was fortunate enough to have a high paying job and bought in 2016* in California. 873 sq ft house. I sold it 50k above asking price (550) in 2020 within 3 days. 873 sq ft.

The bummer is (for others), the setup I have in Nashville is a house 3 times the size for about 70% of the price. I have a girlfriend that I stay over with and I just air bnb it, easily paying the mortgage and half of her rent every month with money to spare. If you just have enough for that down payment, and if you play it right, it can be easy pickens from there. If I rent it out 90% of a month I can make $3500-$4000 a month. Nashville is also a hot spot. But almost no one under 30 has that money for a down payment. First time home buyers and single mothers have some help from the gubment but I don't know enough and I also don't trust those at all. 

[Dill]

(09-13-2023, 11:44 AM)LSUfaninTN Wrote: Have they been arguing that the state is the destiny of its people, 
and that the nation requires a leader above the law, to whom the military and government officials should 
demonstrate personal loyalty?  Without knowing it?

Dude, Trump isn’t a fascist. Too many on the left think fascist just means “mean white guy.” Name one policy he had that was fascist. “He tried to overturn the election”, no, he genuinely believed it was rigged against him. With the Hunter Biden laptop story, the 2 year long frivolous Russia investigation, the way that the media has twisted his words and words of Republicans’ (“don’t say gay”, “Muslim ban”, “stronger borders = xenophobia and racism”), I don’t blame him. 

You are getting over anxious here. I did not say Trump was a fascist, and I have argued elsewhere in this forum, not only that he is not but people use the term improperly. They really should be using more general terms like "right-wing authoritarian populist" or "autocrat."  Calling him "fascist" is like calling garden variety Democrats and centrists "the left."  E.g., here:
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-The-Fight-Against-Fascists-I-Can-t-Believe-This-Exists?page=2&highlight=fascism (#25,27)
and here: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-CPAC-stage-design-Fascists-gonna-Fascist?pid=994984&highlight=fascism#pid994984 (#30)
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Republican-National-Convention-s?pid=894409&highlight=fascism#pid894409 (81)
and here: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Sometimes-it-is-a-drag-being-correct?pid=722978&highlight=fascism#pid722978  (23)

Since I don't think Trump is a fascist, I don't need to name one fascist policy of his.  But since I do think he is an authoritarian, I'm willing to name some statements and actions that are very clearly authoritarian in character. One that comes frequently to mind is his assertion that we should have "kept the oil" after the Iraq war--like an ill-advised war creates a right to other's private property. His efforts to scapegoat non-Anglo ethnicities also fit the authoritarian mold, warning Americans of Mexican "rapists" and doing his damnedest to create a Muslim ban. That is a consistent feature of right-wing populism across continents. The most blatant examples, of course, were his efforts to overthrow a valid election, during which he considered seizing voting machines, wanted the DOJ to declare a "problem" with the election, organized lists of fake electors, and the like. There are a lot of trimmings that could go here as well: the misogyny, wanting a military parade, that crazy press conference with his cabinet gushing over how wonderful it was to work for him, his love for foreign dictators, the phasing out of truth-tellers among his advisors and staff in favor of yes men, his public humiliation of subordinates, etc. 

(09-13-2023, 11:44 AM)LSUfaninTN Wrote: Here’s a small outline of how the left is displaying fascism:

2) This is more Nazi-esque, but, the obsession with race. Traditional liberalism sought a colorblind society. This is the complete opposite of the left today—the left is absolutely OBSESSED with race. They bring it into every discussion. They categorize people by skin color and demand they act a certain way (“If they don’t vote for me, they ain’t black” - Joe Biden). For a good example of this, look up Candace Owens’ interview on CNN. She’s a black conservative (which, to many on the left means she’s a black white supremacist or Uncle Tom), and the first question she was asked by the anchor was “are you concerned about the color in the White House”? Our race relations now are worse than they were in the 90s, and it is SOLELY inflicted by the left

You've put a lot of info out there. For the moment I'll just deal with the above.

First "racism" is not an intrinsic requirement of fascism. Fascism in Italy was born without it as either tenet or policy theme (though Italian fascists certainly had racist views similar to other Europeans and to Americans at the time). 

Second, if you consider Nazism fascism, racism and racial hierarchy were built into their policies and worldview for sure. But their view was that "non-Aryan" races were inferior. Fascism, in all its varieties, affirms natural inequality. Those people you call "the Left" sound more like they are obsessed with racial equality, not inequality, as Nazis were.  

So it seems to me that you are doing what I have accused "the Left" of doing--i.e., misapplying the term "fascism."  Why isn't that right wing "manipulation of speech"? (Though manipulation of speech is something all parties do in all countries--not an index of fascism.)

[Dill]

(09-13-2023, 11:05 AM)Bengalion Wrote: Also, how are people unschooled in "civics and economics" helpful to "the left"?  You imply this is an outcome they desire.

Studies show that 7,243 professors at America’s top 40 colleges, 3,623 professors are registered Democrats (50.02%), whereas just 314 are registered Republicans (8.67%). This means that Democrat professors at America’s top colleges outnumber Republican professors by a ratio of nearly 12:1. Proof of left-wing indoctrination in America’s schools can be further seen in data on young Americans. According to a 2018 Gallup poll, just 45% of millennials view capitalism positively. To the contrary, 51% of millennials view socialism positively. This means that young Americans largely support socialism over capitalism. These views conflict with the views of every single other generation of Americans. Just 28% of the Silent Generation, 30% of Baby Boomers, and 41% of Generation X view socialism positively. 

Source: https://amac.us/newsline/society/leftist-indoctrination-in-americas-schools/

I'll just deal with this bit for the moment. 

First, you've not actually answered my question. Why does being "unschooled in civics and economics" help whomever you are calling "the left"?  Why doesn't that help the Right, especially Trumpism?

I'll need to see whatever "study" you are referring to. I recall reading one such some 20 years ago, but it was sampled heavily towards the humanities and sciences, ignoring engineering, agriculture and business, where I'll wager Dems do not dominate, if they are even 50%. 

But I'm ready to concede there are far more Democrats in U.S. universities than Republicans. I just don't see how that proves left-wing "indoctrination," unless by "left-wing" you mean the kind of prioritizing of rational discussion and empirical evidence that birthed modern learning from the Renaissance forward--against feudal, conservative, and finally right wing resistance. Modern centers of learning, responsible for teaching and pursuing modern scholarship and science, are naturally going to seem progressive to the right--"pillars of deceit" as Limbaugh put it. These activities don't seem to attract many right wingers, and that's why we don't find many in universities. 

I checked out your link. Gosh, that is some bad reasoning. Do you think George W. Bush and supporters of NCLB were "leftists"? That's why they wanted to wrest control of hiring and firing from teachers unions? "The Left" wants a standardized curriculum? The "reporting" on the Oregon math initiative just seems intended to misinform. 

[Millhouse]

(09-12-2023, 04:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Literally all they have to do to is stay out of their own way and let the Republicans implode themselves out of another election in a year.

Instead you go full fascism.

Both sides have imploded so much these recent years, I almost want to move to Canada, or even worse Europe lol. It's like common sense moderates have no place in the U.S. politics these days.

[BigPapaKain]

Go ahead and file this under 'shit that'll be struck down sooner rather than later'.

It'll also likely cost her re-election.

[LSUfaninTN]

(09-13-2023, 08:30 PM)Dill Wrote: You are getting over anxious here. I did not say Trump was a fascist, and I have argued elsewhere in this forum, not only that he is not but people use the term improperly. They really should be using more general terms like "right-wing authoritarian populist" or "autocrat."  Calling him "fascist" is like calling garden variety Democrats and centrists "the left."  E.g., here:
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-The-Fight-Against-Fascists-I-Can-t-Believe-This-Exists?page=2&highlight=fascism (#25,27)
and here: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-CPAC-stage-design-Fascists-gonna-Fascist?pid=994984&highlight=fascism#pid994984 (#30)
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Republican-National-Convention-s?pid=894409&highlight=fascism#pid894409 (81)
and here: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Sometimes-it-is-a-drag-being-correct?pid=722978&highlight=fascism#pid722978  (23)

Since I don't think Trump is a fascist I don't think I need to name one fascist policy of his.  But since I do think he is an authoritarian, I'm willing to name some statements and actions that are very clearly authoritarian in character. One that comes frequently to mind is his assertion that we should have "kept the oil" after the Iraq war--like an ill-advised war creates a right to other's private property. His efforts to scapegoat non-Anglo ethnicities also fit the authoritarian mold, warning Americans of Mexican "rapists" and doing his damndest to create a Muslim ban. That is a consistent feature of right-wing populism across continents. The most blatant examples, of course, were his efforts to overthrow a valid election, during which he considered seizing voting machines, wanted the DOJ to declare a "problem" with the election, organized lists of fake electors, and the like. There are a lot of trimmings that could go here as well: the misogyny, wanting a military parade, that crazy press conference with his cabinet gushing over how wonderful it was to work for him, his love for foreign dictators. 


You've put a lot of info out there. For the moment I'll just deal with the above.

First "racism" is not an intrinsic requirement of fascism. Fascism in Italy was born without it as either tenet or policy theme (though Italian fascists certainly had racist views similar to other Europeans and to Americans at the time). 

Second, if you consider Nazism fascism, racism and racial hierarchy were built into their policies and worldview for sure. But their view was that "non-Aryan" races were inferior. Fascism, in all its varieties, affirms natural inequality. Those people you call "the Left" sound more like they are obsessed with racial equality, not inequality, as Nazis were.  

So it seems to me that you are doing what I have accused "the Left" of doing--i.e., misapplying the term "fascism."  Why isn't that right wing "manipulation of speech"? (Though manipulation of speech is something all parties do in all countries--not an index of fascism.)

I gotta cut down on the long posts so I'll try to make this my last one... anyway:

1) You did mention fascism and I assumed, probably correctly, that you were talking about right wing and what Trump was intending to do. You may not have called him a fascist, but I think that’s splitting hairs here.


2) Keeping the oil after the Iraq war is just an example of, to the victor go the spoils. It’s how war goes. No utopian rewriting of the rules is going to change that. 

3) Muslim ban: Trump took a page out of the Dems playbook here, and used a justified reason (countries that didn’t have proper vetting) to potentially do something shady. If he intended it as an actual Muslim ban, yes, that’s fascist and authoritarian. This begs the question, though, why would Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world) be excluded? This could easily go either way, the left will have its "justification" regardless. 

4) Re: overthrowing the election. I’d call that a wash, with the exception that Trump had more than enough reason to raise an eyebrow at the legitimacy of the election. It was rigged, flat out. The Dems, Twitter and the FBI colluded, and if you refuse to see that, I can’t help ya there. I’ll also point out that the 2016 election was contested because of possible Russia collusion. They found none, and fabricated the Steele dossier. Sorry man, that's prime fascism.


5) Racism - I made sure to point out that it was more Nazi-esque, so I’m going to skip over the part about how you said it may be a misapplication of the word fascism. The left has been weaponizing race and racism since the Obama administration. “Racial Equality” has become more and more about taking whites down, and less about racial equality. It’s been easier for blacks to get into schools than whites and Asians of equal qualifications for a really… really long time. All a moot point though, as the SC decided 3 generations of affirmative action was enough, and it’s going the way of the dodo since the Students for Fair Admissions situation; this would be the most honest and least political move towards racial equality that we’ve had in at least a decade. Until Elon came along, you could post racist things about whites with impunity;  but do it to blacks? Suspension or ban. That isn't tin foil hat stuff. It's a thing. I don't know your stance on that, but I'm certainly not cool with it. And a growing percentage of the country isn’t either. If we put racial equality at the top of the list, we gotta have it apply to everyone. I'm of the opinion that diversity hires and racial quotas, as opposed to equality of opportunity and hiring further divide the country based on race, as if the goal were a "separate but equal" type situation. 

Last thing re: racism. Police brutality has also been exaggerated and used as a weapon by the left to promote fascist riots (“there will be blood in the streets”). They reported stories falsely (look how Breonna Taylor, Rashard Brooks, Jacob Blake, Michael Brown and Stephon Clark were covered, then look up what actually happened). Manipulation of the media. To save you the time of doing the research on my claim of exaggeration: although blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be shot unarmed by police, they also commit more crimes. You can look that up on the homeland security / FBI web page, table 47a I believe. Racial relations were at their best in the 90s, yet the Dems will have you believe that it’s gotten worse now, it’s become a self fulfilling prophecy. Ask yourself this question: is the US more or less systemically racist in 2023, after 2 terms of a black president, than it was in 1990? If so, please explain.

I don’t think we will agree, because we’re telling each other 2 + 2 = 5, but I do appreciate that you have done research and are not reacting emotionally. That’s important, and that much, we can at least agree on.

[hollodero]

(09-13-2023, 10:02 PM)LSUfaninTN Wrote: 4) Re: overthrowing the election. I’d call that a wash, with the exception that Trump had more than enough reason to raise an eyebrow at the legitimacy of the election. It was rigged, flat out. The Dems, Twitter and the FBI colluded, and if you refuse to see that, I can’t help ya there. I’ll also point out that the 2016 election was contested because of possible Russia collusion. They found none, and fabricated the Steele dossier. Sorry man, that's prime fascism.

This just is the point where I have issues with your stance, how you throw the term fascism out there. That doesn't make much sense to me. The FBI did not expose the laptop story, just as much as they did not expose a counterintelligence investigation into the Trump campaign. They just don't do that. All that was around were unconfirmed allegations from folks like Rudy Giuliani. Who has a demonstrable track record of promoting fake stories. He deserved all the scrutiny he got.
One can discuss mistakes made, or even bias shown, over a laptop in FBI possession not being confirmed (that, as of now, still does not implicate Joe Biden) as a true story. I would even agree with that. But fascism? Isn't it part of your own stance that one should not use that word lightly?

And what you call possible collusion stemmed from a real story about Russian election meddling. That was not fake at all. Couple that with a candidate that by all appearances is the beneficiary, says quite some weird stuff (he just did, not my fault) and hires quite some Russia-affine people like Manafort Flynn and then some, and of course the media has a story, with special councels and all. If that were all about Hillary, FOX would have had a 24/7 story too. You can credibly accuse the media of sensationalizing, and certainly of severe bias, but again, fascism?

Same goes for the steele dossier, that was just dirty opposition research that did not come out before the election - one wonders why the anti-Trump FBI did not just leak it just in time before the election. Why not do that as a corrupt FBI agent? If they really were in cohouts with Democrats, they would have. That the dossier itself triggered the investigations into the Trump campaign or was the one central element in said investigations is just a wrong narrative and you know it. Yet you use it to make a fascism claim. That is a bit dishonest, imho.

[Dill]

(09-13-2023, 10:02 PM)LSUfaninTN Wrote: I gotta cut down on the long posts so I'll try to make this my last one... anyway:
1) You did mention fascism and I assumed, probably correctly, that you were talking about right wing and what Trump was intending to do. You may not have called him a fascist, but I think that’s splitting hairs here.
2) Keeping the oil after the Iraq war is just an example of, to the victor go the spoils. It’s how war goes. No utopian rewriting of the rules is going to change that. 
3) Muslim ban: Trump took a page out of the Dems playbook here, and used a justified reason (countries that didn’t have proper vetting) to potentially do something shady. If he intended it as an actual Muslim ban, yes, that’s fascist and authoritarian. This begs the question, though, why would Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world) be excluded? This could easily go either way, the left will have its "justification" regardless. 
4) Re: overthrowing the election. I’d call that a wash, with the exception that Trump had more than enough reason to raise an eyebrow at the legitimacy of the election. It was rigged, flat out. The Dems, Twitter and the FBI colluded, and if you refuse to see that, I can’t help ya there. I’ll also point out that the 2016 election was contested because of possible Russia collusion. They found none, and fabricated the Steele dossier. Sorry man, that's prime fascism.

Your last post? I frequently see a pattern among right wing posters here--they post claims that cannot withstand cross examination, then take off as that becomes plain, claiming "the Left" cannot be reasoned with.  Hope you'll break that pattern to consider your and my evidence more closely.

If you think I was splitting hairs when I said Trump was not a fascist, then you did not read any of my previous posts on the subject. Right now, it doesn't appear that you know what fascism was or what current strains of it look like. You misrecognize signs of actual authoritarianism while calling things "fascist" which plainly are not.

For example--contemporary liberal democracies do not make war on other countries to steal their property. That is what Hitler did. That's why we have the Geneva Conventions and international Humanitarian Law and the International Criminal Court. Yet you endorse using war to steal, while accusing "the Left" of fascism. You just dismissed the 300 years of human rights development and international law which separate us from a time when rape and booty were simply part of soldiers' pay. "Utopian rewriting of the rules" prevailed at Nuremburg and we have a better world for it.

How is a Muslim ban a "page out of the Dems playbook"? The point was to stop immigration from war torn countries generating mass refugees--people Trump and Stephen Miller didn't want in this country. That's not Saudi Arabia (with whom Trump and Kushner wished to partner in business), our NATO ally Turkey, and Indonesia. 

You claim the election was "rigged flat out" without a whit of evidence. Trump's own DoJ, state governors and secretaries of state told Trump there was no fraud. They were the ONLY ones actually positioned to know and confirm that. Yet you frame this as ME "refusing to see" because I require evidence more substantive than "because Twitter"? You seem to think if Trump believed in his heart the election was stolen then his power grab was "understandable" or even justified. That's a VERY anti-democratic defense of a leader who either can't tell reality from his own fictions, or knew very well what he was breaking democracy--with much help from his party.  

We agree the U.S. education system isn't working very well, but for very different reasons. I fear that large swaths of our population cannot recognize authoritarian behavior when they see it, and vague, expansive notions of fascism and "the left" deployed as propaganda are symptoms of this. Democracy cannot work without an educated citizenry which prioritizes rational argument grounded in empirical evidence in political debates, and which both values democracy and understands its fragility. Devaluing education for citizenship in favor of job training leaves us with millions who can be persuaded that legal opposition research like the Steel Dossier and a conspiracy to fabricate electors to overturn the will of the voters just make for a "wash."