New policy requires on-field players, personnel to stand for anthem

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 11:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Sorry, I misunderstood your comment.  Do you agree that everyone who cheered for Trump when he talked about how messed up the country was also "disrespected" this country?  I don't see how you can have it both ways.  Trump saying the country is messed up is no different from Kaepernick saying the same thing.

2.  The military are not the only patriots who love this country.

1. No they were not disrespectful; nor is anyone that speaks about injustices. However, anyone that intentionally chooses not to follow the US Code with the anthem is played is showing a lack of respect for the flag and the Nation for which it stands.

2. No they are not. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 11:43 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: 1. Requirements, force, they do not require a legal mandate to be used.


2. Has this been stated by those participating in these protests? You're assigning motive that I am unaware of. Do you find protest to be inherently disrespectful?

3. From what I am gathering, this is just an example of what I have been saying in this thread. People are coming to this discussion by stating their opinions as facts, and that is damaging to the discourse.

1. You keep thinking you're making a point and I'll keep thinking you're dealing in semantics. I think you knew full well my assertion when I asked who has ever forced you to stand for the National Anthem and you still haven't identified anyone.

2. Of course it has. Kaepernick even talked to Military Personnel to determine who he could continue his overt disrespect of the Nation without offending the Military. 

3. And you keep getting it wrong. It is a fact that lack of respect equals disrespect. There's really nothing subjective about it. Now each individual only knows there true intent; however, it does not mean disrespect was not displayed. 

[Belsnickel]

(05-25-2018, 12:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. You keep thinking you're making a point and I'll keep thinking you're dealing in semantics. I think you knew full well my assertion when I asked who has ever forced you to stand for the National Anthem and you still haven't identified anyone.

2. Of course it has. Kaepernick even talked to Military Personnel to determine who he could continue his overt disrespect of the Nation without offending the Military. 

3. And you keep getting it wrong. It is a fact that lack of respect equals disrespect. There's really nothing subjective about it. Now each individual only knows there true intent; however, it does not mean disrespect was not displayed. 

1. And you are wrong in you're thinking about my knowledge of your intentions. The ambiguity in your statement was interpreted differently by me than you had intended it.

2. So you are saying that he stated that he intended to disrespect the nation? I'm just trying to ascertain how you are aware of his motive with such certainty.

3. A lack of respect does equal disrespect, that is valid and sound. I am not contesting that. My argument is that Kepernick's actions being seen as disrespectful or lacking respect towards the nation is a subjective view. What you interpret as disrespectful, others do not. The entire concept of respect is not quantifiable, it is not something that is based in fact and therefore cannot be objectively measured. That is the flaw in your argument and what I am trying to point out. Until you can recognize that respect and the potential lack thereof is completely subjective, there can be no productive discussion on the topic.

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 12:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: 1. And you are wrong in you're thinking about my knowledge of your intentions. The ambiguity in your statement was interpreted differently by me than you had intended it.

2. So you are saying that he stated that he intended to disrespect the nation? I'm just trying to ascertain how you are aware of his motive with such certainty.

3. A lack of respect does equal disrespect, that is valid and sound. I am not contesting that. My argument is that Kepernick's actions being seen as disrespectful or lacking respect towards the nation is a subjective view. What you interpret as disrespectful, others do not. The entire concept of respect is not quantifiable, it is not something that is based in fact and therefore cannot be objectively measured. That is the flaw in your argument and what I am trying to point out. Until you can recognize that respect and the potential lack thereof is completely subjective, there can be no productive discussion on the topic.

1. I'll take you at your word that you did not understand my point when I asked who who has ever forced you to stand

2. Of course he did: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," 


3, The US code of how to show respect when the Anthem is played is quantifiable and is in no way subjective; regardless how many times you say it. As I have said their intentions are only known to them

[*PhilHos*]

(05-25-2018, 09:57 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The unfortunate truth about this all right now is that the movement in the NFL has failed. Not because the NFL made their policy decision, that is irrelevant. It failed because the conversation never really got to the issues the protesters were trying to bring attention to. I think this is a combination of failure in method as well as people unhappy with the message running a counter-message to shove the real intention under the rug.

(05-25-2018, 10:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree.  The problem was that it was so vague and poorly planned when it started.  Kaepernick had no real goal for what had to be done in order for him to stop protesting.  That allowed everyone who opposed him to claim he was protesting the wrong things or for the wrong reason.

If he had come out and said something like "I want an independent prosecutor appointed for all cases where a police officer is accused of misconduct.' we would not have all these people claiming "He encourages cop killers" and things like that.

Agreed.

[Belsnickel]

(05-25-2018, 12:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. I'll take you at your word that you did not understand my point when I asked who who has ever forced you to stand

You've already said that once and then brought it up again.

(05-25-2018, 12:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 2. Of course he did: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," 

Pride and respect are not synonyms.

(05-25-2018, 12:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 3, The US code of how to show respect when the Anthem is played is quantifiable and is in no way subjective; regardless how many times you say it. As I have said their intentions are only known to them

Does the USC state that is the only way to show respect? Your argument is rooted in the formal logical fallacy of denying the antecedent.

If you are following the USC, then you are respecting the flag/anthem.

You are not following the USC, so you are not respecting the flag/anthem.

The conclusion doesn't logically follow and your argument is invalid.

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 12:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You've already said that once and then brought it up again.


Pride and respect are not synonyms.


Does the USC state that is the only way to show respect? Your argument is rooted in the formal logical fallacy of denying the antecedent.

If you are following the USC, then you are respecting the flag/anthem.

You are not following the USC, so you are not respecting the flag/anthem.

The conclusion doesn't logically follow and your argument is invalid.

Yeah, no. 

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 11:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. No they were not disrespectful; nor is anyone that speaks about injustices. However, anyone that intentionally chooses not to follow the US Code with the anthem is played is showing a lack of respect for the flag and the Nation for which it stands.

That is a ridiculous double standard.  That would be like a judge saying "It is okay to call me a crook, but if you don't wear a suite and tie in my court you are being disrespectful."

[*PhilHos*]

(05-25-2018, 01:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is a ridiculous double standard.  That would be like a judge saying "It is okay to call me a crook, but if you don't wear a suite and tie in my court you are being disrespectful."

Just out of curiousity and with the acknowledgement that they aren't exactly the same thing, is it disrespectful to not stand in court (if you're physically capable) when the bailiff says, "All rise"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2018, 10:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It failed because no one wants to hear anyone who disagrees with them.  Doesn't matter how much money they make.

I do, all the time.  I enjoy a well reasoned counter argument.  I enjoy when someone presents a topic or debates and issue to the point that my opinion on that issue is shifted.

 

Quote:Rich people don't think their opinion counts any more than the average Joe.  They just know they have a method of reaching more people with their message.  If the average Joe who serves you coffee made apolitical comment that you disagreed with you would be just as upset.

This is completely false.  Rich people absolutely believe their opinion counts for more, because it absolutely does.  DO you think your opinion or mine matters as much as the Koch brothers or Soros?

Quote:All this hatred aimed at "rich and famous" people is just jealousy.

Some of it is, to be sure.  Some of it is due to the sanctimony in which these opinions are conveyed.  Some of it is the arrogance that they know better than "average Joe" because they're on TV.  To say all of the "hatred" is due to sheer jealousy is both wrong and childishly simplistic.

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 01:48 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Just out of curiousity and with the acknowledgement that they aren't exactly the same thing, is it disrespectful to not stand in court (if you're physically capable) when the bailiff says, "All rise"?

Yes.  But it is also disrespectful to call the judge a crook.  You can't have that type of double standard.  They are either both disrespectful or neither is.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-25-2018, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  But it is also disrespectful to call the judge a crook.  You can't have that type of double standard.  They are either both disrespectful or neither is.

Yeah, I wasn't caring about calling the judge a name, just wondering your opinion of standing in court in a thread about standing for the national anthem. Not trying to start an argument or debate or anything. I was just curious your thought on standing in court. You provided your answer and I appreciate it. 

Carry on.

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 01:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  Some of it is the arrogance that they know better than "average Joe" because they're on TV. 

I have never heard a single one of them claim anything like that.

Got a link?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2018, 01:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have never heard a single one of them claim anything like that.

Got a link?

Yes

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 02:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes

Can I see it?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2018, 02:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Can I see it?

Oh, sorry.  I thought we were playing the stupid question, stupid answer game.

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 01:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is a ridiculous double standard.  That would be like a judge saying "It is okay to call me a crook, but if you don't wear a suite and tie in my court you are being disrespectful."

It would be nothing like that. Have no idea how you came up with that. It would be like they asked you to stand when the judge comes in and you choose to sit there 

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 02:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh, sorry.  I thought we were playing the stupid question, stupid answer game.

Uh, okay then.

No person has ever said that their opinion is more important than the average Joe just because they are on TV, and you can't prove me wrong.

Is that better?

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 02:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It would be nothing like that. Have no idea how you came up with that. It would be like they asked you to stand when the judge comes in and you choose to sit there 

And that is just as disrespectful as calling the judge a crook, right?

I was talking about your double standard where you say it is not disrespectful to say the country is messed up, but it is disrespectful to kneel during the national anthem.

To me they are both the same.  Both the Trump crowds and the kneeling players are saying this country has problems.  If one is disrespectful then both are.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2018, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, okay then.

No person has ever said that their opinion is more important than the average Joe just because they are on TV, and you can't prove me wrong.

Is that better?

Nope.  Let me ask you this, are people in show business known for the lack of ego and unassuming manner.  Are you familiar with the term "rider" and what it means.  If so, are you familiar with what they typically contain?  Seriously, your question was stupid.