Newt wants to deport Americans who practice Islam

[Brownshoe]

(07-19-2016, 01:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But it was abolished under Sharia Law in Tunisia.

It wasn't abolished under Sharia law. The government of Tunisia abolished it.

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2016, 01:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But it was abolished under Sharia Law in Tunisia.

Nope, it was abolished contrary to Sharia Law.

[Brownshoe]

(07-19-2016, 01:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Now you are just playing semantics.

Or are you saying it is okay to follow the Quran but not Sharia Law?

It's not ok to follow any violent ideology.

[fredtoast]

(07-19-2016, 01:40 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: It's not ok to follow any violent ideology.

So should we deport all Jews or Christians that believe in the Old Testament Law?

[Brownshoe]

(07-19-2016, 01:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So should we deport all Jews or Christians that believe in the Old Testament Law?

I never said that we should deport anyone, but keep saying that.

But if they believe in the laws to murder people or violate other peoples rights then we shouldn't let them in the country, and we should put them on a watch list.

[fredtoast]

(07-19-2016, 01:56 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: But if they believe in the laws to murder people or violate other peoples rights then we shouldn't let them in the country, and we should put them on a watch list.

So all Jews and Christians who believe in the Old Testament law, correct?

And all Christians who believe it is okay to deny same sex couples equal protection under the law. That is a pretty big violation of other peoples rights.

[Brownshoe]

(07-19-2016, 02:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So all Jews and Christians who believe in the Old Testament law, correct?

And all Christians who believe it is okay to deny same sex couples equal protection under the law.  That is a pretty big violation of other peoples rights.

There are different sets of laws in the old testament. Not just one set like Sharia. If a Christian or a Jew believes in the laws that violates other peoples rights then yes.

There should be laws in place where you get punished for denying same sex couples equal protection under the law, and there are already a lot of states who have that.

[fredtoast]

(07-19-2016, 02:19 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: There should be laws in place where you get punished for denying same sex couples equal protection under the law, and there are already a lot of states who have that.

That is not the point. We are talking about denying entrance into the United states or placing people on a watch list who follow Judea Christian law.

The Old testament orders death and destruction in the name of God.

[Brownshoe]

(07-19-2016, 03:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is not the point.  We are talking about denying entrance into the United states or placing people on a watch list who follow Judea Christian law.

The Old testament orders death and destruction in the name of God.

Yes if they follow the death and destruction laws. There are more than one set of laws in the Old Testament. Like the 10 commandments is one set of laws. The covenant that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God made with Abraham is another set of laws, ect. Sharia law is it's own set.

[Belsnickel]

(07-19-2016, 02:19 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: There are different sets of laws in the old testament. Not just one set like Sharia. If a Christian or a Jew believes in the laws that violates other peoples rights then yes.

There should be laws in place where you get punished for denying same sex couples equal protection under the law, and there are already a lot of states who have that.

Mmm, no. There are the 613 Mitzvot, which are the laws to guide the lives of the Hebrew people. They include some pretty heinous shit, and following those laws are what results in being a god Jew and being judged well in the end.

[BmorePat87]

(07-18-2016, 11:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not concerned. I'll await feedback from your Muslim friends that follow Sharia and can pick and choose what parts they adhere to.  

Asked my best friend (Muslim and Bengals fan, reason why I started posting here) and he made fun of me for arguing about this on the Bengals message board. He called some of the more intense stuff crazy and said he doesn't know anyone who believes that.

(07-19-2016, 12:23 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You don't believe in the law that you break. If you break Sharia law then you don't believe it. If you break an internet law you don't believe in that internet law. It's as simple as that.

Hold up, bud. You said "If you don't follow one part of Sharia, you do not believe in it". So since you decided to compare it to laws, I am now asking "If I do not follow ONE law of the thousands of laws in the US, are you saying I do not believe in US laws as a whole?". Please try to follow your own asinine argument.

[BmorePat87]

Seems to be a lot of confusion as to what is included in Sharia and that was the point of this thread. I learned a long time ago that "Sharia" covers most aspects of Islam, from dietary rules to prayer to punishment. It seems like people want to focus on the heinous shit, which should not be allowed in this country. HOWEVER, saying that anyone who believes in Sharia should be banned would not only be unconstitutional but it would also be ignorant as it would technically cover daily religious practice. Newt should have specified.

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2016, 09:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Hold up, bud. You said "If you don't follow one part of Sharia, you do not believe in it". So since you decided to compare it to laws, I am now asking "If I do not follow ONE law of the thousands of laws in the US, are you saying I do not believe in US laws as a whole?". Please try to follow your own asinine argument.

Are you comparing religious law to secular? Also the issue is "believe" not follow. Do you believe it is against the law to donwload songs as you suggested?

As to your "best friend" IF I take you at your word that he believes in Sharia Law; then I am sure he has his own interpretation, but he would have to tell me personally that he follows Sharia, but there are parts he doesn't believe in.

[Brownshoe]

(07-19-2016, 09:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Asked my best friend (Muslim and Bengals fan, reason why I started posting here) and he made fun of me for arguing about this on the Bengals message board. He called some of the more intense stuff crazy and said he doesn't know anyone who believes that.


Hold up, bud. You said "If you don't follow one part of Sharia, you do not believe in it". So since you decided to compare it to laws, I am now asking "If I do not follow ONE law of the thousands of laws in the US, are you saying I do not believe in US laws as a whole?". Please try to follow your own asinine argument.

If you brake one US law you're breaking the law. If you don't follow one US law you're not following the law. If you brake one Sharia law you're breaking Sharia law. If you don't follow one Sharia law you're not following Sharia law.

If you get caught breaking a law and go to court you can't say "well I was still following the law I just don't agree with that one law". Even if it's just as simple as selling a song or movie illegally. You can't follow Sharia law unless you do the heinous things in Sharia too. Otherwise you're not following the law. You're not following old testament laws if you don't do it's heinous things in it.

You can't pick and choose what laws you want to do and which you don't want to do. Because if you do you're no longer following the law. You can still be a Muslim, you just can't follow laws like Sharia. You can still be a Christian/Jew, but you can't follow the laws in Leveticus.

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2016, 09:55 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Are you comparing religious law to secular? Also the issue is "believe" not follow. Do you believe it is against the law to donwload songs as you suggested?

Brownshoe is, so I told him I'd roll with his comparison and play along. Silly, I know, but that's where he wanted to take his argument. 

 Yes, I am breaking that law, but I still believe in all of the other laws.

Quote:As to your "best friend" IF I take you at your word that he believes in Sharia Law; then I am sure he has his own interpretation, but he would have to tell me personally that he follows Sharia, but there are parts he doesn't believe in.

Don't worry, I am trustworthy. I'd never be dishonest like someone suggesting that they have never known people to disagree over which aspects of their religion to follow. 

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2016, 09:57 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: If you brake one US law you're breaking the law. If you don't follow one US law you're not following the law. If you brake one Sharia law you're breaking Sharia law. If you don't follow one Sharia law you're not following Sharia law.

If you get caught breaking a law and go to court you can't say "well I was still following the law I just don't agree with that one law". Even if it's just as simple as selling a song or movie illegally. You can't follow Sharia law unless you do the heinous things in Sharia too. Otherwise you're not following the law. You're not following old testament laws if you don't do it's heinous things in it.

You can't pick and choose what laws you want to do and which you don't want to do. Because if you do you're no longer following the law. You can still be a Muslim, you just can't follow laws like Sharia. You can still be a Christian/Jew, but you can't follow the laws in Leveticus.

This is really simple. You can either answer my question using your parameters, or you can admit that your comparison was incredibly stupid. You said that if I do not follow one part of Sharia, I do not believe in any of it. You then compared it to the laws of this nation. So we are going to use your argument with your parameters. I get that your argument was bad, but that's not my fault. Either stick with it now or go away. 

So since not following one part of Sharia mean you do not believe in any of it, do I not believe in the laws of the US if I break one of them? Whether it is me downloading one song illegally or MLK Jr.  refusing to get up from a lunch counter, are you going to tell me that someone who disobeys one law does not believe in the system of laws for the United States?

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2016, 10:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 1) Brownshoe is, so I told him I'd roll with his comparison and play along. Silly, I know, but that's where he wanted to take his argument. 

 Yes, I am breaking that law, but I still believe in all of the other laws. So perhaps we can agree with the notion that your friend believes in Sharia Law, he just justifies in his head which ones he follows.





2) Don't worry, I am trustworthy. I'd never be dishonest like someone suggesting that they have never known people to disagree over which aspects of their religion to follow. 

1) And you also believe in the law you are breaking; you just choose not to abide by it, most likely because of how you interpret it and justify it in your head; but you still believe it is a law.

2) No one is considering you untrustworthy; it's just perhaps you and your friend haven't had a deep enough conversation on belief versus follwing.

Folks do understand that Sharia is a form of legal system don't they? So to suggest no one in the US follow Sharia is simply saying, believe all you want; you just cannot impose your Sharia Law here. it is different from the core beliefs of muslims.

[Brownshoe]

(07-19-2016, 10:06 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This is really simple. You can either answer my question using your parameters, or you can admit that your comparison was incredibly stupid. You said that if I do not follow one part of Sharia, I do not believe in any of it. You then compared it to the laws of this nation. So we are going to use your argument with your parameters. I get that your argument was bad, but that's not my fault. Either stick with it now or go away. 

So since not following one part of Sharia mean you do not believe in any of it, do I not believe in the laws of the US if I break one of them? Whether it is me downloading one song illegally or MLK Jr.  refusing to get up from a lunch counter, are you going to tell me that someone who disobeys one law does not believe in the system of laws for the United States?

I didn't say that if you don't don't follow one part of Sharia, you don't believe any of it. I said if you don't follow one part of Sharia you're not following Sharia law. You can still believe in some aspects of Sharia law, but you don't believe in Sharia law unless you follow all aspects of it.

You're taking your analogy too far, because that would be the equivalent of me saying "If you don't follow Sharia law you're not a Muslim". If you don't follow a law in the US then you don't believe in that law. That doesn't mean that you don't believe in all of the laws. Sharia law umbrella's all of the rules from killing someone who insults Islam, to dietary rules. You can believe in the dietary rules, but disagree with killing someone who insults Islam. That would make you a Muslim that doesn't believe in Sharia law.

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2016, 10:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 1) And you also believe in the law you are breaking; you just choose not to abide by it, most likely because of how you interpret it and justify it in your head; but you still believe it is a law.

2) No one is considering you untrustworthy; it's just perhaps you and your friend haven't had a deep enough conversation on belief versus follwing.

3) Folks do understand that Sharia is a form of legal system don't they? So to suggest no one in the US follow Sharia is simply saying, believe all you want; you just cannot impose your Sharia Law here. it is different from the core beliefs of muslims.

1) Correct, I recognize it is a law. That does not mean, as I was told by another, that I do not believe in the system of laws in this nation.

2) You're still hung up on all or nothing. 

3) And if I believe the law of god should govern my daily life in areas that do not conflict with the laws of this nation (such as daily worship and dietary laws), I believe in it. It's unconstitutional to try to deport me for practicing this. 

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2016, 10:31 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I didn't say that if you don't don't follow one part of Sharia, you don't believe any of it. I said if you don't follow one part of Sharia you're not following Sharia law. You can still believe in some aspects of Sharia law, but you don't believe in Sharia law unless you follow all aspects of it.

You're taking your analogy too far, because that would be the equivalent of me saying "If you don't follow Sharia law you're not a Muslim". If you don't follow a law in the US then you don't believe in that law. That doesn't mean that you don't believe in all of the laws. Sharia law umbrella's all of the rules from killing someone who insults Islam, to dietary rules. You can believe in the dietary rules, but disagree with killing someone who insults Islam. That would make you a Muslim that doesn't believe in Sharia law.

The all of nothing argument doesn't hold up. If someone asked if I followed or believed in the laws of the US, I'd say yes even though I occasionally speed or, in the past, have downloaded music illegally. 

If I was asked by Newt Gingrich "Do you believe in US laws", I'd still answer yes as most of them guide my daily life. 

It also goes for any other religious law. I do not know many people who agree on following all of them even within denominations.