(02-18-2023, 07:46 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: What you said above has nothing, repeat nothing to do with Desantis choosing her or not for the VP and hurting his chances against Trump because she won't be an issue until AFTER the Primaries of the GOP.
What does in your words " Running for president opens all sorts of doors that aren't about getting the nomination. You could get the VP, get a book deal, get a gig on a major network, set yourself up to make a bigger push in the next presidential election, etc."
Have to deal with Desantis vs Trump in the primaries when the VP nominee is not even considered yet????
The VP nominee is NEVER considered until the Dem or Rep candidate has wrapped up their respective primaries.
We can just agree to disagree, then. I think she's doing this to get a national stage to sell herself as a moderate woman who can be used to balance a ticket after Trump and DeSantis have to go extreme right in order to win the nomination.
(02-18-2023, 08:00 AM)Nately120 Wrote: We can just agree to disagree, then. I think she's doing this to get a national stage to sell herself as a moderate woman who can be used to balance a ticket after Trump and DeSantis have to go extreme right in order to win the nomination.
Just my 2 cents.
I don't disagree with you on her trying to get on a national stage to be VP.
What you said Desantis not choosing her, your words "might not pick her to be VP if she's hurting his chances to beat Trump. "
Picking a VP does not occur until AFTER the respected nominee wins the Primary.
If it is Desantis vs Trump during the primaries a VP has nothing repeat nothing to do what they are campaigning or debating about it is AFTER the primaries are done does the respected winner of the Democrat/Republican campaign picks a VP to run with in the general election.
(02-18-2023, 08:18 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: I don't disagree with you on her trying to get on a national stage to be VP.
What you said Desantis not choosing her, your words "might not pick her to be VP if she's hurting his chances to beat Trump. "
Picking a VP does not occur until AFTER the respected nominee wins the Primary.
If it is Desantis vs Trump during the primaries a VP has nothing repeat nothing to do what they are campaigning or debating about it is AFTER the primaries are done does the respected winner of the Democrat/Republican campaign picks a VP to run with in the general election.
In saying Haley taking "move on from Trump" votes away from DeSantis could cause some contention betwettn them if DeSantis wins.
I could see DeSantis thinking that Haley running puts his presidential nomination at risk because the primary is Trump versus moving on from Trump and everyone other than DeSantis who runs gets things one step closer to Trump getting the nod again.
For that reason I could see the other nominees getting on Ron's bad side and him going with someone else at VP out of spite.
DeSantis wins this unless a bunch of people run and dilute the "not Trump" votes like in 2016.
I can't blame her or any Republican wanting to run. Because at this rate, their chances of winning back the White House along with more seats in Congress are getting better and better, imo.
(02-18-2023, 09:56 AM)Millhouse Wrote: I can't blame her or any Republican wanting to run. Because at this rate, their chances of winning back the White House along with more seats in Congress are getting better and better, imo.
Maybe, but there are so many variables in the new look GOP. I'd agree with you, but there was no logical or historical reason the GOP shouldn't have dominated the 2022 midterms but they didn't.
If the GOP doesn't win the WH in 2024 that would be 4 straight blown election cycles since a narrow win in 2016. That seems implausible, but things are pretty unprecedented now.
(02-18-2023, 09:11 AM)Nately120 Wrote: In saying Haley taking "move on from Trump" votes away from DeSantis could cause some contention betwettn them if DeSantis wins.
I could see DeSantis thinking that Haley running puts his presidential nomination at risk because the primary is Trump versus moving on from Trump and everyone other than DeSantis who runs gets things one step closer to Trump getting the nod again.
For that reason I could see the other nominees getting on Ron's bad side and him going with someone else at VP out of spite.
DeSantis wins this unless a bunch of people run and dilute the "not Trump" votes like in 2016.
I once thought Ron had this in the bag, but I'm not so sure.
Trump is still mega-popular and polls very well at street level for the party. A big chunk of the country definitely views him as unelectable. Problem is, most of that chunk is already voting for Democrats and not in Republican primaries. The anti-Trump Republicans probably aren't as impactful to the party as the country as a whole would like to think.
Sure, there are powerful people on the right with a shitload of money that will do all they can to stop another Trump presidency. The Kochs are probably the biggest example. I'm not sure it matters enough. At the end of the day, the base might very well still want to run it back with a guy they view as the most effective right-wing leader since Reagan. I tend to think they will.
The rub here is that once that fight is over, the candidate has to face the other chunk of anti-Trump voters in the general election. This has always been the poison pill for the far right. That's how a guy as bland and mistake prone as Biden becomes president and then goes on to have one of the better midterm outcomes of any executive in recent memory.
Trump will absolutely not pick Haley as a VP candidate. He's going to go with another firebrand like Greene or Lake. They are both putting in work for him to position themselves. Again, the base will love it, but the country as a whole along with the powers that be with the money on the right may not be so enthusiastic.
(02-18-2023, 10:07 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe, but there are so many variables in the new look GOP. I'd agree with you, but there was no logical or historical reason the GOP shouldn't have dominated the 2022 midterms but they didn't.
Repubs shot themselves in the foot with the abortion issue.
As someone who voted for Trump, I wish the party would move on from him.
(02-18-2023, 09:11 AM)Nately120 Wrote: In saying Haley taking "move on from Trump" votes away from DeSantis could cause some contention betwettn them if DeSantis wins.
I could see DeSantis thinking that Haley running puts his presidential nomination at risk because the primary is Trump versus moving on from Trump and everyone other than DeSantis who runs gets things one step closer to Trump getting the nod again.
For that reason I could see the other nominees getting on Ron's bad side and him going with someone else at VP out of spite.
DeSantis wins this unless a bunch of people run and dilute the "not Trump" votes like in 2016.
Now that you have explained it, I understand.
Too bad Biden did not use your theory[going with someone else out of spite] as he Picked Kamala as his VP candidate.
In fact, out of all the Democratic candidates, Kamala attacked him the hardest.
"Mr Biden was visibly taken aback by the attack and he plodded through his response, before turning to fellow candidate Pete Buttigieg at the podium next to him during a commercial break and saying: “Well, that was some f***ing bulls***.”"
Reportedly, Jill Biden stated to Joe out of all the Black female candidates you picked her?
Dino!
Looks like you are quite uninformed when comes to alternative history.
The rest of us know all to well how Hitler sought to pack his government with Jews, Roma, and Marxists as he imposed the fascist policy of DIVERSITY on the German people, based on genes and blood.
And that was before Jews had lasers. Think of the danger now.
Those who do not know alternative history are doomed to repeat it!
(03-19-2023, 11:44 AM)GMDino Wrote: This is the kind of thing I find really disturbing about the right. And that their supporters don't see the problem with it is equally disturbing.
But she has to chase Trump for the authoritarian vote.
Haley: Our kids needs to be saying the pledge of the allegiance when they start their day so that they know to love America pic.twitter.com/LzT9zAt4ji
Again, for a political base that has gone full contrarian mode they really seem to miss that being told to or forced to do something by your government or elders isn't exactly a slam-dunk way to foster compliance and acceptance. And I say that as a rather bland person who had to autopilot his way through a daily dose of pledge and prayers. Hell, I went to a school where we'd go church as a school every friday and the teacher would watch you and if you didn't sing or respond enough in those monotone manners that were burned into you, you'd get a lovely C or D in Religion on your report card.
The GOP is so damn picky and illogical. It's important to comply when the government tells you to stand and pledge the flag or to go fight in war, but it's your patriotic duty to not comply when the government tells you to wear a mask or get a vaccine. That's not even getting into their grasp upon sexuality and morality. What a pain in the ass, it all comes down to a playbook that is so hypocritical and illogical that it requires translation by Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump.
They'll tell you what is moral. They'll tell you how taking your son to Hooters isn't sexual abuse but taking him to Cabaret is, they'll tell you how a guy like Trump is more Jesus-ey than a guy like Jimmy Carter. It doesn't make sense, so that's why you need someone to sit you down and explain it all to you. Freedom and stuff.
Ok, rant mode over. I need to go say 3 Hail Mary's and sing O' Canada now.
tl;dr - didn't we all say the pledge every morning growing up? It sure as shinola wasn't an option in my life from kindergarten to grade 12. Shouldn't everyone be a republican by now?
(03-19-2023, 12:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Again, for a political base that has gone full contrarian mode they really seem to miss that being told to or forced to do something by your government or elders isn't exactly a slam-dunk way to foster compliance and acceptance. And I say that as a rather bland person who had to autopilot his way through a daily dose of pledge and prayers. Hell, I went to a school where we'd go church as a school every friday and the teacher would watch you and if you didn't sing or respond enough in those monotone manners that were burned into you, you'd get a lovely C or D in Religion on your report card.
The GOP is so damn picky and illogical. It's important to comply when the government tells you to stand and pledge the flag or to go fight in war, but it's your patriotic duty to not comply when the government tells you to wear a mask or get a vaccine. That's not even getting into their grasp upon sexuality and morality. What a pain in the ass, it all comes down to a playbook that is so hypocritical and illogical that it requires translation by Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump.
They'll tell you what is moral. They'll tell you how taking your son to Hooters isn't sexual abuse but taking him to Cabaret is, they'll tell you how a guy like Trump is more Jesus-ey than a guy like Jimmy Carter. It doesn't make sense, so that's why you need someone to sit you down and explain it all to you. Freedom and stuff.
Ok, rant mode over. I need to go say 3 Hail Mary's and sing O' Canada now.
tl;dr - didn't we all say the pledge every morning growing up? It sure as shinola wasn't an option in my life from kindergarten to grade 12.
Sound like we had the same Catholic school upbringings!
We have a right to not say the pledge if we don't want to now. That's the thing the right wants to ignore.
I will be taking no further questions at this time.
(03-19-2023, 12:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: Sound like we had the same Catholic school upbringings!
We have a right to not say the pledge if we don't want to now. That's the thing the right wants to ignore.
I'm so sick of people who went to public school and send their kids to public schools complaining that public schools aren't doing what they want. Sell your iphone and stop going to starbucks and send your kids to a school that forces them to say the pledge and say their prayers (and take their vitamins, if you want to go full Hulk Hogan).
Anyone want to help me badger Thomas Massie into running ?
Not my fav, but man we need better candidates.
Libertarians are not fielding much, as the speculation goes.
I believe the only 4 that admitted considering are Justin Amash, Spike Cohen, Dave Smith (comedian), and Chase Oliver (ran against ol Hershal Walker in GA).
The party is in a bit of an upheaval at the moment.
I maaaaay be a bit to blame, as I often gave advice to the caucus leader that lead a "take-over" of the party.
Things are a bit sketchy and the financials are not quite there to support a presidential run.
Ballot access is also a mess, like the party not being recognized in Ohio anymore.
That's one reason I'm running as an Republican this year.
(03-20-2023, 11:29 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I wouldn't expect any debates. Could happen, but I think the GOP has taken a stance to not debate democrats.
And the AZ governor debate was called off by the democrat, too. I recall that.
I think Trump would want a debate--an opportunity to perform and strut and verbally abuse.
DeSantis too, though on more rational grounds. But polling at the time may suggest that his
policies don't draw well at the national level, so that could be incentive to avoid really
publicizing them while someone is challenging them in real time.
(03-20-2023, 12:06 PM)Dill Wrote: I think Trump would want a debate--an opportunity to perform and strut and verbally abuse.
DeSantis too, though on more rational grounds. But polling at the time may suggest that his
policies don't draw well at the national level, so that could be incentive to avoid really
publicizing them while someone is challenging them in real time.
Trump holds one sided rallies where he says what he wants and gets applauded for it, why debate? Same with DeSantis who has all of Fox News hosting him and spreading his message. Why would they engage in anything resembling a two-way debate or discussion?
Right or wrong, our two party system and the voters have seemed to accept the idea that not debating is OK, because the other side is spewing 100% bollocks and even getting into a discussion with them is a waste of time because it gives them a chance to spread their lies and BS. The perception between even us regular schmos is that attempting to discuss politics with someone of the opposite party is a waste of time at best, or an act of weakness/contrition at worst. I'm sure there were times when refusing to talk to people who disagree with you politically was seen as a bad thing, but now? Probably seen as a wise, prudent, or at least stress-reducing thing.
Primary debates will still be a thing because voters will expect their party representatives to have the decency and gall to engage with members of their own party, but it seems to me like our political system in the USA is very much catering to the idea that even speaking with the other side is a waste of time and there is no blowback for refusing to debate them, hell, people probably approve of it.
In the AZ gov race Katie Hobbs was the one who declined to debate by saying that it was just going to give Kari Lake a national platform to spout her BS and spread lies. The results of the race would indicate that people agreed with her refusing to provide that platform.
Trump and DeSantis will have to debate and it'll be a race to one up each other but after that the winner will probably just say "Biden sucks, why bother talking to that demented old commie?" and that'll be that. Biden could likely get away with saying that everyone knows what insanity DeSantis/Trump is going to spout, so why not just focus on being president and not wasting breath talking to them?
(03-20-2023, 12:29 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump holds one sided rallies where he says what he wants and gets applauded for it, why debate? Same with DeSantis who has all of Fox News hosting him and spreading his message. Why would they engage in anything resembling a two-way debate or discussion?
Right or wrong, our two party system and the voters have seemed to accept the idea that not debating is OK, because the other side is spewing 100% bollocks and even getting into a discussion with them is a waste of time because it gives them a chance to spread their lies and BS. The perception between even us regular schmos is that attempting to discuss politics with someone of the opposite party is a waste of time at best, or an act of weakness/contrition at worst. I'm sure there were times when refusing to talk to people who disagree with you politically was seen as a bad thing, but now? Probably seen as a wise, prudent, or at least stress-reducing thing.
Primary debates will still be a thing because voters will expect their party representatives to have the decency and gall to engage with members of their own party, but it seems to me like our political system in the USA is very much catering to the idea that even speaking with the other side is a waste of time and there is no blowback for refusing to debate them, hell, people probably approve of it.
In the AZ gov race Katie Hobbs was the one who declined to debate by saying that it was just going to give Kari Lake a national platform to spout her BS and spread lies. The results of the race would indicate that people agreed with her refusing to provide that platform.
Trump and DeSantis will have to debate and it'll be a race to one up each other but after that the winner will probably just say "Biden sucks, why bother talking to that demented old commie?" and that'll be that. Biden could likely get away with saying that everyone knows what insanity DeSantis/Trump is going to spout, so why not just focus on being president and not wasting breath talking to them?
Yeah, we'll see. Too early to tell.
No debate would be another of those terrible milestones, like Trump not making his taxes public and his supporters not caring, way more suspicious of "crooked Hillary" and her way-more-transparent finances.
A debate would be in the Dems favor though--a chance to for Americans to compare the differing emphases and party planks, rebuild infrastructure vs trans bathrooms, banking regulations vs "woke" investing, "weaponizing" the government by arresting presidential felons and scofflaws on the principle that no one is above the law vs actually weaponizing the government to attack enemies and stay in power.
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