North Carolina

[Belsnickel]

(12-06-2018, 04:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But snarky comments are more than welcomed.

We know. It's something you excel at.

[*bfine32*]

(12-06-2018, 04:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You already have to prove you are a citizen to vote. What do you think you do when you register?

It is a complicated issue. It's only simple if you refuse to acknowledge the policy and bureaucratic hurdles to the situation as well ignoring the history and the explicit statements from GOP officials stating that they are passing the laws to prevent people from voting to gain a political advantage. Or you could just be incapable of looking past the surface level of the issue.

My capabilities aside. Once one registers to vote, one should be given instructions on how to obtain a picture ID that must bee shown when you vote. Perhaps we should look forward; instead of focusing on what happened in the past. Or you could just be incapable of looking forward.

[Belsnickel]

(12-06-2018, 04:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My capabilities aside. Once one registers to vote, one should be given instructions on how to obtain a picture ID that must bee shown when you vote. Perhaps we should look forward; instead of focusing on what happened in the past. Or you could just be incapable of looking forward.

If there was an appropriate ID given, free of charge, when the registration took place then that could be well and good. Unfortunately, the goal of these laws is not about preventing voter fraud. That's not looking at the past, that is looking at the present. These laws are being passed to fix a non-existent problem and it has been explicitly stated it is to disenfranchise voters.

(12-06-2018, 04:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I know. I was recently given a Time Out because of it.

For snark? That's some bullshit. This subforum wouldn't exist with out.

[*bfine32*]

(12-06-2018, 05:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If there was an appropriate ID given, free of charge, when the registration took place then that could be well and good. Unfortunately, the goal of these laws is not about preventing voter fraud. That's not looking at the past, that is looking at the present. These laws are being passed to fix a non-existent problem and it has been explicitly stated it is to disenfranchise voters.


For snark? That's some bullshit. This subforum wouldn't exist with out.

Earlier you applauded Fred for pointing out that the fraud occurs during registration and then informed me that the proof of citizenship burden is satisfied during the registration process. You should be required to provide proof of citizenship when you register and then you should be given instructions on how to obtain your photo ID.

I amazed that you know that non-citizens/unregistered voting is not a problem. I think disenfranchise it just another word for they shouldn't have to. As to the cost of the ID card. It should be based on a percentage of your income. Voting is a right, but it should include some responsibility.  

[Belsnickel]

(12-06-2018, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Earlier you applauded Fred for pointing out that the fraud occurs during registration and then informed me that the proof of citizenship burden is satisfied during the registration process.

Yes. They get caught trying to commit fraud at that level. Because they check those sorts of things.

(12-06-2018, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You should be required to provide proof of citizenship when you register and then you should be given instructions on how to obtain your photo ID.

Which must be absolutely free of charge, or else it is a poll tax.

(12-06-2018, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I amazed that you know that non-citizens/unregistered voting is not a problem.

I know there is no evidence that it is a problem.

(12-06-2018, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think disenfranchise it just another word for they shouldn't have to.

I think disenfranchise is what conservatives have been trying to do for a long time in this country as they attempt to prevent people from voting. Wait, I don't just think that, it's historical record.

(12-06-2018, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to the cost of the ID card. It should be based on a percentage of your income. Voting is a right, but it should include some responsibility.  

Good thing that would be unconstitutional. Voting is, in itself, a responsibility.

[fredtoast]

(12-06-2018, 04:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Once again; I do not see how requiring ID disenfranchises the poor. Do we disenfranchise them from buying a drink?

You don't have to see it.  The fact is it exists and Republican leaders know it exists.  


Pennsylvania Republican House leader Mike Turzai admitted that the voter ID laws would allow Mitt Romney to win his State during the 2012 election.  And there was no proof of any voter fraud that he could have been talking about.

Wisconsin Republican congressman Glen Grothman also said that voter ID laws would hurt Democrats despite the fact that there is zero evidence that Democrats commit voter fraud any more than Republicans.

Todd Allbaugh, a former Republican legislative aid quit his job over what he heard in a Republican caucus discussing using voter ID laws to suppress the vote of minorities and college students.

Pennsylvania Republican Party Chairman Robert Gleason said that voter ID laws help suppress the number of votes Obama received in 2012. Again no evidence at all that Democrats committed voter fraud more than Republicans. 

Republican consultant Scott Tranter called voter ID laws "part of the party's tool kit".

All of these people know that there is zero evidence that Democrats commit voter fraud more than Republicans.  They know that voter ID laws suppress the vote of the poor who tend to vote more Democrat.

You can brag about your ignorance of how it works as much as you want, but politicians know exactly what the purpose of the voter ID laws are.

[GMDino]

(12-06-2018, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Earlier you applauded Fred for pointing out that the fraud occurs during registration and then informed me that the proof of citizenship burden is satisfied during the registration process. You should be required to provide proof of citizenship when you register and then you should be given instructions on how to obtain your photo ID.

I amazed that you know that non-citizens/unregistered voting is not a problem. I think disenfranchise it just another word for they shouldn't have to. As to the cost of the ID card. It should be based on a percentage of your income. Voting is a right, but it should include some responsibility.  

Have there not been studies and this has been looked into (repeatedly) and found to be almost zero problem?

[fredtoast]

(12-06-2018, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I amazed that you know that non-citizens/unregistered voting is not a problem.

You should not be amazed.  Unlike you, Bels is educated on the subject.


Hint.....Don't believe everything your Donald tells you.

[jj22]

Add Michigan to the list.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/michigan-republicans-rush-to-weaken-unions_us_5c09758de4b0b6cdaf5d29be?knh

[BmorePat87]

I believe we had a commission that was suppose to look at the unsubstantiated claim that there were 3-5 million illegal votes cast in the 2016 election. The idea that 4% of all votes were illegal.

We haven't had evidence that even 1% of that figure, 30,000, is true. Hell, even 1% of 1% would have been highlighted, right?

Voter ID laws aren't responses to problems. They're used to limit the electorate. Just look at North Dakota. There was a concerted effort to hinder the ability of one group to vote, claiming it was in response to a problem that did not exist.

[*bfine32*]

If I have to prove citizenship to vote and that requires me to provide a birth certificate. Is purchasing that Birth certificate a poll tax?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-06-2018, 04:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's only complicated if we make it so. Showing an ID is not a difficult process and I am 100% sure there are programs that would help those that have difficulty acquiring such an ID card. To not have to prove you are a citizen to vote in ludicrous and it's not complicated.

There is in every single state that has passed the voting id laws.
People act like it's going to disenfranchise all these poor people, but in order for them to get paychecks cashed, gov assistance etc they are already required to have a photo id. It's not the big issue the left is making it out to be.

(12-06-2018, 04:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You already have to prove you are a citizen to vote. What do you think you do when you register?

It is a complicated issue. It's only simple if you refuse to acknowledge the policy and bureaucratic hurdles to the situation as well ignoring the history and the explicit statements from GOP officials stating that they are passing the laws to prevent people from voting to gain a political advantage. Or you could just be incapable of looking past the surface level of the issue.

Can you explain the process as to how you prove that you are a citizen?

[Belsnickel]

(12-06-2018, 09:20 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: There is in every single state that has passed the voting id laws.

Because they were forced to by the courts.

(12-06-2018, 09:20 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: People act like it's going to disenfranchise all these poor people, but in order for them to get paychecks cashed, gov assistance etc they are already required to have a photo id. It's not the big issue the left is making it out to be.

You'd be surprised how many people don't have a photo ID. I work with a non-profit that deals with the impoverished on a regular basis and the number of people that have come in that lack that documentation is astounding.

(12-06-2018, 09:20 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Can you explain the process as to how you prove that you are a citizen?

In Virginia, when you fill out the voter registration it is then checked by the Department of Elections where they verify the match of your SSN, DOB, name, and address. If anything doesn't mesh, then they will either reject the application or they will contact you to correct the issue or provide further documentation. Since you won't have an SSN without being a citizen, that verification is how they get that proof.

It should be noted that even with voter ID laws, this is when you prove you are citizen. We have the voter ID law here, one of the strictest in the country, but your ID doesn't provide the proof.

[*bfine32*]

(12-06-2018, 09:33 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: In Virginia, when you fill out the voter registration it is then checked by the Department of Elections where they verify the match of your SSN, DOB, name, and address. If anything doesn't mesh, then they will either reject the application or they will contact you to correct the issue or provide further documentation. Since you won't have an SSN without being a citizen, that verification is how they get that proof.

It should be noted that even with voter ID laws, this is when you prove you are citizen. We have the voter ID law here, one of the strictest in the country, but your ID doesn't provide the proof.

So as long as I can provide (without documentation) a SSN, DOB, Name, and Address that all match; that's the proof required by one of the most strict states in the Nation.

I can see why Fred stated this is where the most fraud occurs. 

[GMDino]

(12-06-2018, 09:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If I have to prove citizenship to vote and that requires me to provide a birth certificate. Is purchasing that Birth certificate a poll tax?

Yes.

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/modern/jb_modern_polltax_1.html

[fredtoast]

(12-06-2018, 04:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My capabilities aside. Once one registers to vote, one should be given instructions on how to obtain a picture ID that must bee shown when you vote. 

Here is a good test for you.  Propose to Republicans that everyone get a free photo ID card when they register to vote.

Not a single one will support that type of legislation.

[*bfine32*]

(12-07-2018, 12:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a good test for you.  Propose to Republicans that everyone get a free photo ID card when they register to vote.

Not a single one will support that type of legislation.

Will they back free Birth certificates if one is required to register? You have said the fraud comes during registration. Should we work to make that process more detailed?

[fredtoast]

All of these free photo ID cards are going to cost the government a lot of money.

So shouldn't we have some proof of a problem before we start wasting more tax money?

When I was born people did not even have a photo on a drivers license. How did we ever have fair elections over the first 200 years in this country?

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 12:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Will they back free Birth certificates if one is required to register? You have said the fraud comes during registration. Should we work to make that process more detailed?

If there is proof of fraud then I say we spend the money or take the steps required to fix it.

[*bfine32*]

(12-07-2018, 12:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If there is proof of fraud then I say we spend the money or take the steps required to fix it.

Well you're the one that stated that's where the fraud occurs.