North Korea What to do?

[ballsofsteel]

Besides threatening that little pork chop dictator, What can we realistically do military wise to put that sob in his place? We have 28K troops on that border,they have a million. China is not helping too much. If any shooting starts, what choice do we have but wipe them off the map. What a mess!

[NATI BENGALS]

Easy answer if you look around the boards here.

Be like our good friends over in Russia and help North Korea out.

Write off their debt, open new trade routes, and invest in their infrastructure.

[Benton]

Current administration is pretty keen on them. Current Congress is not.

My personal thought: Leave.

South Korea is a trading partner and I don't think it's as bad as Trump has said of the deficit ($28 billion in a deficit is not destroying the US economy). But Korus isn't benefiting us, having a military presence there isn't benefiting us (maybe a handful of US companies, but not much), and keeping the North and South from fighting isn't benefiting us.

Like most of the world, we should pull our forces out, reduce our military spending by half and work on our own failing infrastructure/business climate.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-28-2017, 06:32 PM)ballsofsteel Wrote: Besides threatening that little pork chop dictator, What can we realistically do military wise to put that sob in his place?  We have 28K troops on that border,they have a million. China is not helping too much. If any shooting starts, what choice do we have but wipe them off the map. What a mess!

I don't think numbers count very much.  It's what you are equipped with, and how often you get to train to use it.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Tell China that if they swoop in and wipe out the NK government, while easing off their territorial waters arming, the US will fully support them in a claim to the UN for recognizing the of absorption of NK into China.

We get rid of crazy NK.
The seas calm down with territorial disputes.
China gets a bunch of absurdly mineral-rich territory and more shoreline for off-shore drilling and fishing and such.

[Dill]

(06-29-2017, 03:53 PM)Benton Wrote: Current administration is pretty keen on them. Current Congress is not.

My personal thought: Leave.

South Korea is a trading partner and I don't think it's as bad as Trump has said of the deficit ($28 billion in a deficit is not destroying the US economy). But Korus isn't benefiting us, having a military presence there isn't benefiting us (maybe a handful of US companies, but not much), and keeping the North and South from fighting isn't benefiting us.

Like most of the world, we should pull our forces out, reduce our military spending by half and work on our own failing infrastructure/business climate.

Two questions:

Should the US abandon Japan and Taiwan as well?

If North Korea attacks the South, should the US then stay out of it?

[Dill]

(06-29-2017, 03:55 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Tell China that if they swoop in and wipe out the NK government, while easing off their territorial waters arming, the US will fully support them in a claim to the  UN for  recognizing the of absorption of NK into China.

We get rid of crazy NK.
The seas calm down with territorial disputes.
China gets a bunch of absurdly mineral-rich territory and more shoreline for off-shore drilling and fishing and such.

South Korea and Japan would hardly "calm down" if this happened.

You are recommending the US give the Pacific Rim to China, vastly increasing their power and diminishing our allies.

A Chinese occupation of N Korea would go about as well as the US occupation of Iraq.

[Au165]

Buy them off. I am serious, tell them we will invest in them if they forfeit military arms. I am not talking humanitarian aid, I am talking full fledged investment in their economy. Sell it to him as being the guy who propelled North Korea into a world leader in business. He was Western educated, appeal to his ego that he can turn North Korea into Japan.

[Benton]

(06-29-2017, 04:01 PM)Dill Wrote: Two questions:

Should the US abandon Japan and Taiwan as well?

If North Korea attacks the South, should the US then stay out of it?

Japan is unique given our WWII history and the agreements that were made in the years after. Many (all?) of which are still honored between the two countries. Our military presence there is not the same as our presence in South Korea or Niger or Australia. 

Taiwan, I'll admit, I don't stay very well versed of. I would help them join the United Nations and — similar to NATO with Russia — encourage Taiwan and other nations concerned about an aggressive China to form an ally agreement. Our formal agreement with Taiwan ended in the 80s (if I'm remembering right, I was in elementary school then).

And, yes, if North attacks South, the US should stay out of it, by and large. Help those displaced by fighting, offer assistance to victims. But we don't have to fight every fight in the name of stopping one despot or another. We need to encourage more of a unified effort through allies and potential allies and less of us taking on the role of trying to scare everyone into getting along. 

[Bengalzona]

The problem here isn't North Korea, guys. The problem is the lying fake-news media!!! Why, they have led us all to believe that Kim Jung Un is this evil dictator who mistreats his people. Take a look at this picture:

Does that look like an evil dictator to you, I ask?

No! Of course not. This guy is just a cross between Santa Claus and Buddha. The media just doesn't want you to know so you won't go there to get all of the toys!!! He's just getting a bad rap because of the lying liberal media, same as Trump.

Open your eyes! The media is lying to you!!!!

Now, about that ISIS....

[Millhouse]

Work with China and hope they can convince dildo face to stop pursuing nukes.

And if they would attack the South, offer as much military support as we can from space, air, and sea directly while not trying to deploy ground troops, as the south Koreans doing the ground fighting.

And another and, if NK decides to try to launch an icbm or a nuke at us or Japan or SK, then game over for them.

[Dill]

(06-29-2017, 04:49 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: The problem here isn't North Korea, guys. The problem is the lying fake-news media!!! Why, they have led us all to believe that Kim Jung Un is this evil dictator who mistreats his people. Take a look at this picture:

Does that look like an evil dictator to you, I ask?

I see your point Zona. That CAN'T be an evil dictator.

The liberal media has misled us with their constant attacks on the guy. I have always wondered why we never hear about the good things he has done for his people. When media only give you the bad side of some person or group, that is a clear sign they are cherry picking to fit an agenda.

[SunsetBengal]

What to do? Continue to demonstrate that we can blow ICBMs out of the sky. Other than that, just ignore them.

[Yojimbo]

(06-29-2017, 04:05 PM)Dill Wrote: South Korea and Japan would hardly "calm down" if this happened.

You are recommending the US give the Pacific Rim to China, vastly increasing their power and diminishing our allies.

A Chinese occupation of N Korea would go about as well as the US occupation of Iraq.

I don't think Kim Jung Un wants his citizens having a western economy. They would become too demanding of a better life and hard to control.

[Bengalzona]

(06-29-2017, 04:56 PM)Dill Wrote: I see your point Zona. That CAN'T be an evil dictator.

The liberal media has misled us with their constant attacks on the guy.  I have always wondered why we never hear about the good things he has done for his people.  When media only give you the bad side of some person or group, that is a clear sign they are cherry picking to fit an agenda.

His people love the guy. They cry tears of joy when he gives speeches. They call him "Dear Leader"! When is the last time all of the people in the U.S. called the President "Dear Leader" (besides Trump, of course)?

Clearly the liberal media is doing a hack job on this guy, just like Trump!!! 

We can work with this dude. You can't tell me that our President, the greatest deal-maker on the planet can't make a deal with Kim Jung Un! He should be able to trade their nuclear weapons for something like, say, yak turd pies. He is a freaking genius, after all.

[Matt_Crimson]

(06-29-2017, 05:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What to do?  Continue to demonstrate that we can blow ICBMs out of the sky.  Other than that, just ignore them.

Well that's only true to an extent. Successfully shooting down an ICBM from a foreign attack is only a concept and not something that has been fully proven as a real capability of the US. Yes the US has demonstrated it, but that was under very controlled conditions where the US was completely aware of the "attack" and knew the exact coordinates of the missle.

Some of my friends have been making "Let the Koreans try to nuke us, we'll blow them out of the sky" comments, but I don't think they understand how complicated that is and the fact that it's actually never been done before because countries aren't exactly shooting nukes at each other right now.

And if North Korea ever did decide to nuke us they definitely won't be firing just 1 nuke. In all honesty I wouldnt expect less than 10 nukes to come from them, and I don't see us shooting all of them down.

[Matt_Crimson]

(06-29-2017, 03:53 PM)Benton Wrote: Current administration is pretty keen on them. Current Congress is not.

My personal thought: Leave.

South Korea is a trading partner and I don't think it's as bad as Trump has said of the deficit ($28 billion in a deficit is not destroying the US economy). But Korus isn't benefiting us, having a military presence there isn't benefiting us (maybe a handful of US companies, but not much), and keeping the North and South from fighting isn't benefiting us.

Like most of the world, we should pull our forces out, reduce our military spending by half and work on our own failing infrastructure/business climate.

I think you have to keep in mind that our military deployments have much more to do with than our own economy. Although WW3 isn't currently going on, the US is playing a game of chess just like everyone else with their military. The fear of war is still very real and our capabilities to strike our enemies plays a big role in our military placements around the world.

[Dill]

(06-29-2017, 04:34 PM)Benton Wrote: Japan is unique given our WWII history and the agreements that were made in the years after. Many (all?) of which are still honored between the two countries. Our military presence there is not the same as our presence in South Korea or Niger or Australia. 

Taiwan, I'll admit, I don't stay very well versed of. I would help them join the United Nations and — similar to NATO with Russia — encourage Taiwan and other nations concerned about an aggressive China to form an ally agreement. Our formal agreement with Taiwan ended in the 80s (if I'm remembering right, I was in elementary school then).

And, yes, if North attacks South, the US should stay out of it, by and large. Help those displaced by fighting, offer assistance to victims. But we don't have to fight every fight in the name of stopping one despot or another. We need to encourage more of a unified effort through allies and potential allies and less of us taking on the role of trying to scare everyone into getting along. 

What ended in 1979 was our formal recognition of Taiwan as government of "China."

To help Taiwan join the United Nations, we'd have to violate our current one-China policy and recognize them as a separate nation. That might mean a serious break in diplomatic relations with China; they have broken with the 19 countries that recognize Taiwan as the legitimate government of China. That is their stated policy. As I mentioned in a thread on this subject some months ago, China is a great help to us in many ways, especially in Central Asia. We might not have had the Iran deal without them. Taiwan's power in this respect is nil.

We have Mutual Defense Agreement with South Korea and one with Taiwan, both signed in the same year. How seriously will people take our agreements if we give South Korea to NK and China? If I were Japan, I would be very nervous.

I think that abandoning SK would likely force all US allies in the region either 1) to develop a separate set of mutual defense alliances (that you suggest above), likely leading to nuclear proliferation (Taiwan and Japan's only chance of real deterrence), and before that offering many incentives for Chinese boundary-testing, or 2) to accept Chinese hegemony in the region.  The result would be the economies of SK, Japan, and Taiwan (and perhaps Vietnam, the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia?) would align with interests of Beijing rather than ours, as they do now.

You are right that we cannot police every dictator who pops up in the world (though I am not sure we have ever really done that anywhere our interests were not involved.) We are still paying for the Iraq blunder in so many ways, but I worry about abandoning the system of alliances and bases set up after WWII. The US presence deters state violence and invasions in many places, South Korea being one. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The result will be the kind of world that devolves into WWIII as various regional wars ignite and link together.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-29-2017, 04:05 PM)Dill Wrote: South Korea and Japan would hardly "calm down" if this happened.

You are recommending the US give the Pacific Rim to China, vastly increasing their power and diminishing our allies.

A Chinese occupation of N Korea would go about as well as the US occupation of Iraq.

Which would S Korea and Japan prefer? A reckless and aggressive nuclear powered N Korea, and China militarizing the south sea... or a stronger China and a free south sea?

Pretty easy choice there. 

The difference between a N Korea and Iraq occupation is China already controls N Korea's ability to get anything, including *food*. The US could never shut down Iraq's border. China could. Plus there wouldn't be a religion angle bringing foreign fighters and foreign government support. China throws 1m troops in N Korea, kills off the government and high ranking military, and takes over. Not an occupation, a destruction and absorbtion.

(06-29-2017, 04:49 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Now, about that ISIS....

I saw this and your sig girl picture right underneath it and was like "I'll take 72!"

[Dill]

(06-29-2017, 05:20 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Well that's only true to an extent. Successfully shooting down an ICBM from a foreign attack is only a concept and not something that has been fully proven as a real capability of the US. Yes the US has demonstrated it, but that was under very controlled conditions where the US was completely aware of the "attack" and knew the exact coordinates of the missle.

Some of my friends have been making "Let the Koreans try to nuke us, we'll blow them out of the sky" comments, but I don't think they understand how complicated that is and the fact that it's actually never been done before because countries aren't exactly shooting nukes at each other right now.

And if North Korea ever did decide to nuke us they definitely won't be firing just 1 nuke. In all honesty I wouldnt expect less than 10 nukes to come from them, and I don't see us shooting all of them down.

Then the solution is simple--combine defensive capability with diplomacy.

We get the N Koreans to sign a treaty agreeing to only shoot one missile at a time and give us the exact coordinates of each ahead of time.