North Korea threatens to withdraw from summit with Trump

[Yojimbo]

Am I the only one that thinks it was massively stupid to hold military exercises (which are entirely designed to show off) while you are trying to broker a peace deal? Maybe NK would have changed their mind and cancelled the summits anyways for another reason, but why give them an easy out? Military exercises are cancelled and rescheduled all the time. If we had competent people in the state department/Pentagon/Whitehouse they would have known these exercises would only hurt the chance for peace.

[GMDino]

(05-16-2018, 10:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: What Kim has been doing is nothing different than what has happened before. Right now, he is setting the stage to pigeonhole Trump in a way where they will meet, he gets a photo op which equals respect as a world leader in his mind, and he will make unreasonable claims. They'll walk away from the summit and Kim will announce some new nuclear project.

The only real thing that is new has been the razing of the nuclear test site and all of that. However, this is a site that was (IIRC) reported to be suffering from cave ins from instability as a result of the testing done there. So they may have determined the site was unsafe to continue testing in and already had plans to move to a different location.

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I don't expect anything to come of this.

(05-16-2018, 10:26 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: Am I the only one that things it was massively stupid to hold military exercises (which are entirely designed to show off) while you are trying to broker a peace deal? Maybe NK would have changed their mind and cancelled the summits anyways for another reason, but why give them an easy out? Military exercises are cancelled and rescheduled all the time. If we had competent people in the state department/Pentagon/Whitehouse they would have known these exercises would only hurt the chance for peace.

I'm not sure this is one of the threads where we are allowed to talk about Trump, but these two posts speak to his lack of understanding about international politics and policy.  While everyone else was talking about the reasons this type of meeting has never happened and the pitfalls of going all in when announcing it, Trump and his fans insisted it was his unorthodox style that made this time different.  And the only difference is we have POTUS who may end up getting played by NK with nothing to show for it.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-16-2018, 02:54 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Popular with conservatives. But conservatives are a minority.

Regulations and enforcing immigration laws are in fact popular with most Americans.

When Americans have an easier time getting home loans they feel it.

[Bengalzona]

(05-16-2018, 10:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Regulations and enforcing immigration laws are in fact popular with most Americans.  

When Americans have an easier time getting home loans they feel it.

"Regulations and enforcing immigration laws" does not necessarily equate to "the Wall" or gunning down illegals on the border. Those are conservative abstracts.

And weren't "easy home loans" a primary cause for the housing bubble and the Great Recession? Pretty sure most people didn't like those two things very much. But, hey, maybe some will be able to stash away enough money in the meantime to join the 2% and totally ignore the impact of future bubbles and recessions, right?

Regulatory cuts are only popular until people re-learn about the hellish situations that led to the initial regulations in the first place. Regulations just don't appear out of thin air because someone thought it would be cool to make other peoples' lives harder.

[Belsnickel]

(05-16-2018, 10:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Regulations and enforcing immigration laws are in fact popular with most Americans.

When Americans have an easier time getting home loans they feel it.

You know what else is popular with most Americans?

-Universal background checks
-Marijuana legalization
-The Affordable Care Act
-Freedom to choose abortion
-A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants in the country right now
-Focusing research and development on alternative energy sources to help combat climate change

I could go on and on. There are a lot of domestic policies where the popular policy mood is much more liberal than the mood of our elected officials. If you're going to use that for justification for policy initiatives, just know what you're going to be getting yourself into.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-16-2018, 11:12 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: "Regulations and enforcing immigration laws" does not necessarily equate to "the Wall" or gunning down illegals on the border. Those are conservative abstracts.

And were "easy home loans" a primary cause for the housing bubble and the Great Recession. Pretty sure most people didn't like those two things very much. But, hey, maybe some will be able to stash away enough money in the meantime to join the 2% and totally ignore the impact of future bubbles and recessions, right?

Regulatory cuts are only popular until people re-learn about the hellish situations that led to the initial regulations in the first place. Regulations just don't appear out of thin air because someone thought it would be cool to make other peoples' lives harder.

The housing bubble hit because people could use stated income. Then we also had issues in the refinancing area as well, a lot of refi to adjustable rates. Plus appraisers also played into this as well.

That being said we could have gotten out of it quicker had people been allowed to assume mortgages.

I just wished we rebooted to renew regulations every ten years to ensure they are working as intended. If they aren’t they can scrap them and write new ones. If they are no longer necessary then they can lapse.

But none of this is hardly pertinent to NK.

[*Nately120*]

(05-16-2018, 11:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You know what else is popular with most Americans?

-Universal background checks
-Marijuana legalization
-The Affordable Care Act
-Freedom to choose abortion
-A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants in the country right now
-Focusing research and development on alternative energy sources to help combat climate change

I could go on and on. There are a lot of domestic policies where the popular policy mood is much more liberal than the mood of our elected officials. If you're going to use that for justification for policy initiatives, just know what you're going to be getting yourself into.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-16-2018, 11:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You know what else is popular with most Americans?

-Universal background checks
-Marijuana legalization
-The Affordable Care Act
-Freedom to choose abortion
-A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants in the country right now
-Focusing research and development on alternative energy sources to help combat climate change

I could go on and on. There are a lot of domestic policies where the popular policy mood is much more liberal than the mood of our elected officials. If you're going to use that for justification for policy initiatives, just know what you're going to be getting yourself into.

Yeah your list is not as supported as you think. We had an election proving that fact.

[GMDino]

(05-16-2018, 11:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You know what else is popular with most Americans?

-Universal background checks
-Marijuana legalization
-The Affordable Care Act
-Freedom to choose abortion
-A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants in the country right now
-Focusing research and development on alternative energy sources to help combat climate change

I could go on and on. There are a lot of domestic policies where the popular policy mood is much more liberal than the mood of our elected officials. If you're going to use that for justification for policy initiatives, just know what you're going to be getting yourself into.

Sure he does.  He isn't for them so that means the majority isn't.

Plus "Trump won" so that means the "majority" support Trump.

(05-16-2018, 11:24 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yeah your list is not as supported as you think.  We had an election proving that fact.

It's sad and predictable.

[Belsnickel]

(05-16-2018, 11:24 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yeah your list is not as supported as you think. We had an election proving that fact.

You mean the one where the more liberal candidate received the most votes?

[*Nately120*]

(05-16-2018, 11:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You mean the one where the more liberal candidate received the most votes?

[StLucieBengal]

(05-16-2018, 11:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You mean the one where the more liberal candidate received the most votes?

The one where trump was elected for running against almost everything you listed.

[Belsnickel]

(05-16-2018, 02:50 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The one where trump was elected for running against almost everything you listed.

Without winning the popular vote. The winner of the popular vote, meaning the one with more support from the people in the country, the one who a higher percentage of the voters agreed would be better for the job, was the more liberal person that agreed with many of those positions.

Nice effort, though. I mean, your argument shows a lack of understanding in how the popular vote and the Electoral College numbers are different and that the popular vote correlates more directly to the policy mood of the country. But other than that, nice effort.

[*bfine32*]

People should really stop embarrassing themselves by pointing to popular vote. It is not how we elect a President in the United States of America and therefore the point is moot. No one in the forum knows how the popular vote would have turned out if that was the standard before the election, not one that many have chosen to employ after the election.

President Trump won the election in large part because of the policies he supports. It's OK to be mad about it; just stop embarrassing yourselves, by continually saying..."but he lost in a system we don't use"

[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 03:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: People should really stop embarrassing themselves by pointing to popular vote. It is not how we elect a President in the United States of America and therefore the point is moot. No one in the forum knows how the popular vote would have turned out if that was the standard before the election, not one that many have chosen to employ after the election.

President Trump won the election in large part because of the policies he supports. It's OK to be mad about it; just stop embarrassing yourselves, by continually saying..."but he lost in a system we don't use"

Who won the election is determined by the electoral college.

What is most popular with the most citizens is not.

Stop acting like the electoral college has anything to do with what a majority of US citizens want.




And why would anyone be embarrassed about being correct?

[Belsnickel]

(05-16-2018, 03:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: People should really stop embarrassing themselves by pointing to popular vote. It is not how we elect a President in the United States of America and therefore the point is moot. No one in the forum knows how the popular vote would have turned out if that was the standard before the election, not one that many have chosen to employ after the election.

President Trump won the election in large part because of the policies he supports. It's OK to be mad about it; just stop embarrassing yourselves, by continually saying..."but he lost in a system we don't use"

Were I discussing the outcome of the election and saying that Clinton should have won, you would have a valid point. However, since the argument I was engaged in was regarding the public opinion on policy issues, and that is something that correlates to the popular vote and not the Electoral College, it is sound logic to defer to the popular vote.

I would have been happy to not discuss the election at all given that I was discussing public opinion on policy. I did not care to embarrass anyone because their invalid arguments or their lack understanding of public opinion and its correlation to the 2016 presidential election, but I certainly am not embarrassed since, as Fred put it, I am correct.

[*Nately120*]

(05-16-2018, 03:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: People should really stop embarrassing themselves by pointing to popular vote. It is not how we elect a President in the United States of America and therefore the point is moot. No one in the forum knows how the popular vote would have turned out if that was the standard before the election, not one that many have chosen to employ after the election.

President Trump won the election in large part because of the policies he supports. It's OK to be mad about it; just stop embarrassing yourselves, by continually saying..."but he lost in a system we don't use"

Lucie specifically brought up the notion of Trump's policies being in the majority, and that is something that isn't reflected in the raw data.  The topic of debate was whether or not Trump's policies represent what the majority of voters want.  The data suggests the majority of the voters voted for Clinton as well as against Trump. When someone asserts that 46 is bigger than 48 you should expect someone to call him out on it. So what?

Neither the electoral college, nor the results of the election enter into this specific argument.

[*bfine32*]

(05-16-2018, 03:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Who won the election is determined by the electoral college.

What is most popular with the most citizens is not.

Stop acting like the electoral college has anything to do with what a majority of US citizens want.




And why would anyone be embarrassed about being correct?

(05-16-2018, 04:07 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Were I discussing the outcome of the election and saying that Clinton should have won, you would have a valid point. However, since the argument I was engaged in was regarding the public opinion on policy issues, and that is something that correlates to the popular vote and not the Electoral College, it is sound logic to defer to the popular vote.

I would have been happy to not discuss the election at all given that I was discussing public opinion on policy. I did not care to embarrass anyone because their invalid arguments or their lack understanding of public opinion and its correlation to the 2016 presidential election, but I certainly am not embarrassed since, as Fred put it, I am correct.

(05-16-2018, 04:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Lucie specifically brought up the notion of Trump's policies being in the majority, and that is something that isn't reflected in the raw data.  The topic of debate was whether or not Trump's policies represent what the majority of voters want.  The data suggests the majority of the voters voted for Clinton as well as against Trump.  When someone asserts that 46 is bigger than 48 you should expect someone to call him out on it.  So what?

Neither the electoral college, nor the results of the election enter into this specific argument.

I'll ask one question:

What would the outcome of the popular vote have been if candidates would have campaigned and folks would have voted knowing that is how we select our POTUS?

I know for me there would have been one more vote from Trump; as I would have not voted 3rd party.

If you guys don't see the folly in pointing to the result of the popular vote when no parameters were establish to suggest it would mean anything, then I cannot be of further assistance. Just know that your pointing to it will be popular to point to popular vote (see what I did) here, but the real world we no it have 0 merit.

[Belsnickel]

(05-16-2018, 04:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll ask one question:

What would the outcome of the popular vote have been if candidates would have campaigned and folks would have voted knowing that is how we select our POTUS?

We don't know. There are too many variables to make a good estimate.

I'll ask one question to you:

Which is more relevant to a discussion of popular opinion, the popular vote total or the Electoral College results?

[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 04:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you guys don't see the folly in pointing to the result of the popular vote when no parameters were establish to suggest it would mean anything, then I cannot be of further assistance. Just know that your pointing to it will be popular to point to popular vote (see what I did) here, but the real world we no it have 0 merit.

In the real world we give no merit to the electoral college when talking about public opinion.  Instead we only use it for Presidential elections.

Why not step out of the right-wing echo chamber and into our real world for a while.