Norway handles migrants

[Vas Deferens]

(01-22-2016, 04:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/01/islam_and_rape_joined_at_the_hip.html

What do you say to this?

I like it when religious whackos claim their texts should be read in a certain way and have all these other meanings, but other texts should be absolutely literal.  Forget about the old testament, but this other stuff is REAL.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(01-22-2016, 08:40 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There may be countries with that in their laws, however according to Shariah, no witnesses are needed for the rape charge. Also, for regular adultery in Shariah, the women needs to bring no witnesses against the man, but the man must bring three witnesses against the woman. Some countries have corrupted the Islamic laws to be more patriarchal in recent history.

I don't think this is correct.

If a woman says she has been raped, then she will be held blameless and her honor restored but if she accuses someone of raping her, then she has to have 2 witnesses or more maybe to testify that she was raped.

As for physical evidence, I don't know. I hope the Sharia Court would take that into account.

[Belsnickel]

(01-22-2016, 06:34 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I don't think this is correct.

If a woman says she has been raped, then she will be held blameless and her honor restored but if she accuses someone of raping her, then she has to have 2 witnesses or more maybe to testify that she was raped.

As for physical evidence, I don't know. I hope the Sharia Court would take that into account.

Such evidence is only required for the punishment to result in a death penalty, as rape is a capital crime according to Shariah. But the witnesses are not required just for the charge, or even for the man to be found guilty.

[StLucieBengal]

 Vas Defer Wrote:I like it when religious whackos claim their texts should be read in a certain way and have all these other meanings, but other texts should be absolutely literal.  Forget about the old testament, but this other stuff is REAL.

Which is why I have long advocated that Islam needs a reformation to the modern age.    Until they do they will always be a punching bag for anyone who lives according to western ways.

Explain how this is ok ....

Quote:According to Islamic clerics, a woman who fails to wear a headscarf is asking to be raped. Consequently, in the eyes of Muslim men, Western women are seen as "promiscuous, loose, and willing," and since no one in the Islamic community refutes this, they engage in the violence and abuse of power that rape represents. In Australia, Lebanese gangs threaten policemen's wives and girlfriends with rape. In 2006, the mufti of Australia, Sheikh Taj al-Din al Hilali, maintained that "women who do not veil themselves, and allow themselves to be 'uncovered meat,' are at fault if they are raped."

In Rotherham, England, some 1,400 British children as young as 11 were plied with drugs before being passed around and sexually abused by Muslims. As shocking as this was, it is the fifth sex abuse ring led by Muslims according to Raymond Ibrahim, who has been unremitting in his revelation of crimes committed in the name of Islam.

According to Abigail R. Esman, since 2006 the Dutch have described how second-generation Moroccan youths grope Dutch women and call them sluts. Jamie Glazov describes the horrible scar that myriad women now bear. Known as "smiley," whereby "one side of the face is cut up from mouth to ear, it is a war mark left by Muslim rapists as a warning to other women who don't veil themselves." Thus, Muslim and now even non-Muslim women feel the pressure to veil themselves. And female European leaders in perfect synchronized dhimmitude stance tell women to "adopt a code of conduct" to discourage men from committing sexual assault.

[BmorePat87]

It's really awful that rape is prevalent in Norway, Sweden, and Florida, but I have to ask you something, Lucie.

Why is it relevant that some Muslims are doing things at similar or lower rates than Westerners do these things?

It's like the story you posted about Syrian family killing their daughter. I provided data on how far more prevalent murder between family members is in the US compared to Syrian refugees in Germany. You were concerned that they did not understand how we do things in the West. Apparently they don't as they're not killing or raping enough...

This isn't a two wrongs makes a right because I am not condoning or justifying anything. I'm just asking, why the hell are these stories being posted if they don't demonstrate a significant problem?

Also, why aren't you this interested in understanding why Christians rape despite it not being a good thing in their religion? Why not question why any member of a group that abhors rape commits rape?

[StLucieBengal]

 BmorePa Wrote:It's really awful that rape is prevalent in Norway, Sweden, and Florida,  but I have to ask you something, Lucie.

Why is it relevant that some Muslims are doing things at similar or lower rates than Westerners do these things?

It's like the story you posted about Syrian family killing their daughter. I provided data on how far more prevalent murder between family members is in the US compared to Syrian refugees in Germany. You were concerned that they did not understand how we do things in the West. Apparently they don't as they're not killing or raping enough...

This isn't a two wrongs makes a right because I am not condoning or justifying anything. I'm just asking, why the hell are these stories being posted if they don't demonstrate a significant problem?

Also, why aren't you this interested in understanding why Christians rape despite it not being a good thing in their religion? Why not question why any member of a group that abhors rape commits rape?

It's an immigration problem.   Which is exactly what happens when you allow your borders to be flooded.   You can't remove citizens... But you can remove refugees who are begging to join your country.  

In Florida we have a problem with pedos as well and as much as it bothers me I can't just remove people who have rights as citizens.     Non citizens don't get the same treatment.

Find me non citizens who are raping away in Florida and I will happily post about how ridiculous it is we aren't rounding them up.

Oh wait ..... I always mention this when we speak about illegal immigration from Central America and how we shouldn't have lawless immigrants who do not respect our laws or ways.

[BmorePat87]

(01-22-2016, 10:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: It's an immigration problem.  

Then prove it's an immigration policy. Show us that immigrants are more likely to be rapists than citizens.

[StLucieBengal]

 BmorePa Wrote:Then prove it's an immigration policy. Show us that immigrants are more likely to be rapists than citizens.

Yeah the endless news reports of massive migrants raping away on European women and children aren't enough.....  

[*bfine32*]

(01-22-2016, 10:34 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's really awful that rape is prevalent in Norway, Sweden, and Florida,  but I have to ask you something, Lucie.

Why is it relevant that some Muslims are doing things at similar or lower rates than Westerners do these things?

It's like the story you posted about Syrian family killing their daughter. I provided data on how far more prevalent murder between family members is in the US compared to Syrian refugees in Germany. You were concerned that they did not understand how we do things in the West. Apparently they don't as they're not killing or raping enough...

This isn't a two wrongs makes a right because I am not condoning or justifying anything. I'm just asking, why the hell are these stories being posted if they don't demonstrate a significant problem?

Also, why aren't you this interested in understanding why Christians rape despite it not being a good thing in their religion? Why not question why any member of a group that abhors rape commits rape?

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous stance I have seen on these boards. Quoted you, but it is prevalent.

Folks are worried about what refugees are doing in other countries because there is a movement to open wide the gates to let them in here and the best defense folks can come up with is: "We alreadyt do it". 

A better defense would be: "That is not an issue here, we have systems in place to prevent that type of behavior". 

So the "logical" way of thinking is we already have a problem with that; what's a little more.

[Belsnickel]

(01-22-2016, 10:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is quite possibly the most ridiculous stance I have seen on these boards. Quoted you, but it is prevalent.

Folks are worried about what refugees are doing in other countries because there is a movement to open wide the gates to let them in here and the best defense folks can come up with is: "We alreadyt do it". 

A better defense would be: "That is not an issue here, we have systems in place to prevent that type of behavior". 

So the "logical" way of thinking is we already have a problem with that; what's a little more.

I am legitimately unaware of any large scale movement to open the gates wide for the refugees. I know of a movement to take refugees in through the asylum seekers process that involves screening, a waiting period, and limits, but nothing like what you seem to be suggesting with this post.

[*bfine32*]

(01-22-2016, 10:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I am legitimately unaware of any large scale movement to open the gates wide for the refugees. I know of a movement to take refugees in through the asylum seekers process that involves screening, a waiting period, and limits, but nothing like what you seem to be suggesting with this post.

Out of that post, that's what you focused on?

Typical.

Europe is showing us that every country (please don't focus on every) immigrants are allowed in in increased numbers that these types of crimes have increased. The point was suggested "We already do it; so it's OK?". I suggested that is a ridiculous POV and you come back with "I don't know of a large scale movement"? Has absolutely nothing to do with the point in contention other that deflect from it. 

[Belsnickel]

(01-22-2016, 10:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Out of that post, that's what you focused on?

Typical.

Europe is showing us that every country (please don't focus on every) immigrants are allowed in in increased numbers that these types of crimes have increased. The point was suggested "We already do it; so it's OK?". I suggested that is a ridiculous POV and you come back with "I don't know of a large scale movement"? Has absolutely nothing to do with the point in contention other that deflect from it. 

Your argument is that the reason for concern is a movement to throw the gates wide open, which is not something I was aware of. Sonce that is what your argument really hinges on, is that concern, it is entirely relevant.

I also don't disagree that the notion we already do it so it is okay is bad, however I don't infer that from anyone in this thread. I think that is a misrepresentation of their position. They certainly aren't addressing the issue with their commentary, but that is a different matter.

[*bfine32*]

(01-22-2016, 11:07 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Your argument is that the reason for concern is a movement to throw the gates wide open, which is not something I was aware of. Sonce that is what your argument really hinges on, is that concern, it is entirely relevant.

I also don't disagree that the notion we already do it so it is okay is bad, however I don't infer that from anyone in this thread. I think that is a misrepresentation of their position. They certainly aren't addressing the issue with their commentary, but that is a different matter.

That is not what the arguement hinges on regardless what you say.

There is talk of allowing an increased number of migrants into this country

Folks are seeing that the countries in which this increased immagration is allowed in seeing a spike in these types of crimes

The best defense is "We already do it". If it is not a defense; then why are they bringing it up?

Yet you focus on the term "open wide the gates" to illustrate a proposal in increased immigration.

You guys are a trip... 

[Belsnickel]

(01-22-2016, 11:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That is not what the arguement hinges on regardless what you say.

There is talk of allowing an increased number of migrants into this country

Folks are seeing that the countries in which this increased immagration is allowed in seeing a spike in these types of crimes

The best defense is "We already do it". If it is not a defense; then why are they bringing it up?

Yet you focus on the term "open wide the gates" to illustrate a proposal in increased immigration.

You guys are a trip... 

I am not saying there isn't a movement to allow an increased number. But it would still be limited, would still be screened, and still have a waiting period. At least from everything I have seen. This is very different from what we see over in Europe because it is much harder to maintain those borders due to geography.

Also, I have already explained my opinion as to why it is being brought up.

[BmorePat87]

(01-22-2016, 10:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is quite possibly the most ridiculous stance I have seen on these boards. Quoted you, but it is prevalent.

Folks are worried about what refugees are doing in other countries because there is a movement to open wide the gates to let them in here and the best defense folks can come up with is: "We alreadyt do it". 

A better defense would be: "That is not an issue here, we have systems in place to prevent that type of behavior". 

So the "logical" way of thinking is we already have a problem with that; what's a little more.

I've noted your disclaimer. In case you are trying to lump me in with this, I'll say:

If say 1 in 16 men in a population commit rape, I can expect that any male immigrants will have a similar rate. It's not perfect because it doesn't account for actual rates in their home country, but we can roll with this for the time being.

I can expect that for every 16 men that enter into a population, one most likely will commit rape. It's the reality of my country, country X,  and something that must be addressed. 

Now, if someone is trying to suggest that this new group that just entered my country had a significant problem with rape, I assume that means they are raping at a higher rate than the 1 in 16 rate that my country already has. If they are lower than that, they are, in reality, better than the average male population in my country. If they are 1 in 16 too, they are no bigger problem than what we are already facing.

This is why I ask for relevance. Unless this is occurring at higher numbers than it has already been occurring in the country being mentioned, it's not a significant problem and it seems odd to call out one group if they aren't worse than the whole population.

[*bfine32*]

(01-22-2016, 11:20 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I am not saying there isn't a movement to allow an increased number. But it would still be limited, would still be screened, and still have a waiting period. At least from everything I have seen. This is very different from what we see over in Europe because it is much harder to maintain those borders due to geography.

Also, I have already explained my opinion as to why it is being brought up.

So if I would have said "increased number" instead of "open wide the gates" it would have been different and my point would have "hinged" on something else?

Recently a point has been rejected becuase the word "abandoned" was used to desribe an empty building in the middle of nowhere. Another point rejected because I inserted the words "for satisfaction" to define the objectification of women. Now using Open wide the gates instead of increasing the numbers, dismisses another point.

Have you ever heard the phase "Missing the forest because of the trees"? It is an all too common approach in this forum.

****Waits for someone to mention Lucie has used the term savage in the past****

[*bfine32*]

(01-22-2016, 11:24 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I've noted your disclaimer. In case you are trying to lump me in with this, I'll say:

If say 1 in 16 men in a population commit rape, I can expect that any male immigrants will have a similar rate. It's not perfect because it doesn't account for actual rates in their home country, but we can roll with this for the time being.

I can expect that for every 16 men that enter into a population, one most likely will commit rape. It's the reality of my country, country X,  and something that must be addressed. 

Now, if someone is trying to suggest that this new group that just entered my country had a significant problem with rape, I assume that means they are raping at a higher rate than the 1 in 16 rate that my country already has. If they are lower than that, they are, in reality, better than the average male population in my country. If they are 1 in 16 too, they are no bigger problem than what we are already facing.

This is why I ask for relevance. Unless this is occurring at higher numbers than it has already been occurring in the country being mentioned, it's not a significant problem and it seems odd to call out one group if they aren't worse than the whole population.

This doesn't address the fact that every (most/ many/some/ a few/ a couple/ one or two/ ones Lucie brings up) country that has increased imigration from the middle east has seen an increase in these types of crimes.

For instance: Sweden has passed up in number of rapes per capita. I wonder if there was a S-holm Pat that said let them in, we already have a problem with rape? 

[BmorePat87]

(01-22-2016, 11:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This doesn't address the fact that every (most/ many/some/ a few/ a couple/ one or two/ ones Lucie brings up) country that has increased imigration from the middle east has seen an increase in these types of crimes.

Increase in rate or increase in number of cases? Because I've only seen the latter and that is addressed. More people means more crime. If 6.5% of men are rapist, I should expect 1,000,000 Syrian immigrants in Germany to mean Germany has about 65,000 more rapists than they had before. 

Quote:For instance: Sweden has passed up in number of rapes per capita. I wonder if there was a S-holm Pat that said let them in, we already have a problem with rape? 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

Sweden has a wider definition of rape thanks to a 2005 law. Between 2003 and 2010, the number of cases tripled. 

Quote:"But the major explanation is partly that people go to the police more often, but also the fact that in 2005 there has been reform in the sex crime legislation, which made the legal definition of rape much wider than before."

The change in law meant that cases where the victim was asleep or intoxicated are now included in the figures. Previously they'd been recorded as another category of crime.

Also, suggesting that I am saying that we should "let 'em in because we already have a problem with rape" is a straw man. I didn't say that. You know I didn't say that because you're capable of reading ( I assume).

[StLucieBengal]

Why should Norway or any country allow anyone in who doesn't share the same values and overall respect for their ways (western ways).

It's nice Norway is trying but it's also sad that these people actually need to be told how to interact with women.

Sorry but if you have to be told to respect women and not rape them then the gates should be closed.

[BmorePat87]

(01-22-2016, 10:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Then prove it's an immigration policy. Show us that immigrants are more likely to be rapists than citizens.

Still waiting. The data should be out there to prove this if it's true.