Now, the truth starts to emerge from some of the veterans..

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-22-2015, 01:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We did pretty good work in Germany while occupying it. Hell we're still there.

Waaaaay different world we live in today.  Terrorism and guerrilla tactics is the way of todays warfare.  Occupying Iraq didn't work, occupying Afghanistan isn't working.  Trying to occupy anything in the middle east isn't going to work.

I really feel that this is something they are going to have to work out themselves.  That being said I totally agreed with going in to Afghanistan, we simply had to. That is where the people behind the attack were, and supported by that government.  I just feel like we've been there too long.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:29 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Waaaaay different world we live in today.  Terrorism and guerrilla tactics is the way of todays warfare.  Occupying Iraq didn't work, occupying Afghanistan isn't working.  Trying to occupy anything in the middle east isn't going to work.

I really feel that this is something they are going to have to work out themselves.  That being said I totally agreed with going in to Afghanistan, we simply had to. That is where the people behind the attack were, and supported by that government.  I just feel like we've been there too long.

Are you saying because those people are savages Lucie?

I feel we haven't been there stable enough. We occupied Iraq for 10ish years, how long have we had a presence in Germany?

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:27 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: And so we do that.  The problem?...What is the long term goal?  Outside of Israel, name a middle eastern country we have had success with nation building, or regime change.  Our presence in Germany is not due to Germany.  Our presence in Japan and South Korea isn't due to them.

Our presence in all 3 countries you mentioned was exactly because of them. That mission is over; time to move on. 

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-22-2015, 01:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Are you saying because those people are savages Lucie?

I feel we haven't been there stable enough. We occupied Iraq for 10ish years, how long have we had a presence in Germany?

We occupied Germany for 10 years.  We still have a presence in Iraq.

Also Occupation and presence are not the same thing.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:36 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: We occupied Germany for 10 years.  We still have a presence in Iraq.

Also Occupation and presence are not the same thing.

We have about 5 people in Iraq; I guess you can call that a "presence". 

Occupation and presence might be different in books. 

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-22-2015, 01:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Our presence in all 3 countries you mentioned was exactly because of them. That mission is over; time to move on. 

Sure it "was", but that is not what I was talking about sooooo.

It "is" not because of them, however it "is" because of someone.  The original mission is over, however there is a current mission.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-22-2015, 01:29 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Waaaaay different world we live in today.  Terrorism and guerrilla tactics is the way of todays warfare.  Occupying Iraq didn't work, occupying Afghanistan isn't working.  Trying to occupy anything in the middle east isn't going to work.

I really feel that this is something they are going to have to work out themselves.  That being said I totally agreed with going in to Afghanistan, we simply had to. That is where the people behind the attack were, and supported by that government.  I just feel like we've been there too long.

It's not the world that's different, the scenarios are completely different.  Germany was a first world nation with a long history of adherence to authority.  They were hijacked by a fringe movement fueled by resentment and the erroneous idea that the German people had been betrayed at the moment of triumph.  Some of the most positive national traits of the German people, their industriousness, their discipline and their already mentioned adherence to authority were perverted by a very unfortunate set of circumstances.  Somewhat ironically it were these exact traits that made the occupation so painless once the Germans were fully exposed to the weight of the crimes committed by the Nazi government.   One could make a very similar argument for the Japanese as well, although their cooperation was at least equally fueled by the call from their emperor to comply with the occupiers.

None of this applies to the areas of the middle east for several reasons.  They have no history of long stable governance.  They are a mish mash of different tribal and ethnic groups with very little in the way of national identity and what little cohesion as a group they do have is fueled by a religion that is currently being used to justify some of the worst atrocities mankind has witnessed in the modern age.  A religion that itself is experiencing a civil war between two major factions.  Quite simply it's a shit show and the only thing holding it together in the past was iron fisted tyranny, whether in the form of a strong man or a brutal theocracy.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:38 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Sure it "was", but that is not what I was talking about sooooo.

It "is" not because of them, however it "is" because of someone.  The original mission is over, however there is a current mission.

Well then I guess you've lost me. I pointed to the extended "stay" (debate that word if you must) as providing stability. 

Perhaps you can tell me what you were talking about. 

[GodHatesBengals]

As SSF alluded to, this is not particularly new information. It is disgusting, we should not be allying with these people, and it's just one of many ways in which the war in Afghanistan has been mishandled from day one.

What I don't quite understand is what people like Sunset wish us to do about this. Should we just go ahead and kill everybody in Afghanistan and the Middle East? Oh, and here's another thing to consider... this kind of thing is happening in this country, right now. If we can't fix this sort of our problem in our own country, what in the world makes you think we have the means to solve it in another?

[GMDino]

(09-22-2015, 12:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You bring absolutely nothing to every conversation and choose to call someone else a troll.

My two contributions to the thread (other than pointing out your trolling) involved my own thoughts on the subject and my personal belief that I do not have a solid answer.

(09-21-2015, 11:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: We discussed this on FB the other day.  Wife of a soldier said there's much worse than that going on and the military is treating it as not interfering with another "culture" vs forcing "our ways" on them.

I think its sick and we should pull every bit of help away from every country in the middle east.

But that's not a popular opinion.  

(09-22-2015, 09:19 AM)GMDino Wrote:


Anyway, You are correct that this is not new to the region.  Nor will it change while we are there or after we leave.


But the point remains that does our moral superiority end when another country thinks that what we do is wrong?  Can Russia invade us because we believe in SSM?  Or ISIS?


Messing with cultures...the country where they are practiced...is a very dangerous proposition.


On the other side of the coin we have military people sexually attacking their own members and lack of concern over that from the top brass.


I don't think its black and white but I also don't think I have a good answer for it either.

You are asking redundant questions about immigration.

Solid post.

[GodHatesBengals]

(09-22-2015, 01:44 PM)GMDino Wrote:

My two contributions to the thread (other than pointing out your trolling) involved my own thoughts on the subject and my personal belief that I do not have a solid answer.




You are asking redundant questions about immigration.

Solid post.

Of course he is. Bfine finds a way to tenuously connect every ***** thing anybody could ever say to immigration, the principle obsession of his entire existence.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:43 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: As SSF alluded to, this is not particularly new information. It is disgusting, we should not be allying with these people, and it's just one of many ways in which the war in Afghanistan has been mishandled from day one.

What I don't quite understand is what people like Sunset wish us to do about this. Should we just go ahead and kill everybody in Afghanistan and the Middle East? Oh, and here's another thing to consider... this kind of thing is happening in this country, right now. If we can't fix this sort of our problem in our own country, what in the world makes you think we have the means to solve it in another?

Tell you what, go spend about a month in Afghanistan and then come back and tell me if our country is "fixed".

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-22-2015, 01:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And I would love for the presence we have in Europe and Asia to be shifted to the Middle East. 

The above point you made would be a discussion of the current presence of the US military in counties such as Germany and Japan

(09-22-2015, 01:27 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: And so we do that.  The problem?...What is the long term goal?  Outside of Israel, name a middle eastern country we have had success with nation building, or regime change.  Our presence in Germany is not due to Germany.  Our presence in Japan and South Korea isn't due to them.

I engaged in that conversation with the above post providing a reason why we do not shift our "current" presence  from such countries to the Middle East.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: You are asking redundant questions about immigration.

Solid post.

The question is not redundant, the point is If you suggest we shouldn't try to make things better over there then you must be willing to accept them over here. So you either get to be the "World's Police" or the "World's Housing project".

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-22-2015, 01:39 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's not the world that's different, the scenarios are completely different.  Germany was a first world nation with a long history of adherence to authority.  They were hijacked by a fringe movement fueled by resentment and the erroneous idea that the German people had been betrayed at the moment of triumph.  Some of the most positive national traits of the German people, their industriousness, their discipline and their already mentioned adherence to authority were perverted by a very unfortunate set of circumstances.  Somewhat ironically it were these exact traits that made the occupation so painless once the Germans were fully exposed to the weight of the crimes committed by the Nazi government.   One could make a very similar argument for the Japanese as well, although their cooperation was at least equally fueled by the call from their emperor to comply with the occupiers.

None of this applies to the areas of the middle east for several reasons.  They have no history of long stable governance.  They are a mish mash of different tribal and ethnic groups with very little in the way of national identity and what little cohesion as a group they do have is fueled by a religion that is currently being used to justify some of the worst atrocities mankind has witnessed in the modern age.  A religion that itself is experiencing a civil war between two major factions.  Quite simply it's a shit show and the only thing holding it together in the past was iron fisted tyranny, whether in the form of a strong man or a brutal theocracy.

I completely agree with you and everything in your above post.  I was basically trying to convey what you just did, but with less words.  I've been busy today.  But you are correct, two very different situations, and it is a shit show.

[*bfine32*]

(09-22-2015, 01:49 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: The above point you made would be a discussion of the current presence of the US military in counties such as Germany and Japan


I engaged in that conversation with the above post providing a reason why we do not shift our "current" presence  from such countries to the Middle East.

Actually it would be a point of relocating them to a more needed region.

But you said something about Israel. 

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-22-2015, 01:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We have about 5 people in Iraq; I guess you can call that a "presence". 

Occupation and presence might be different in books. 

Yes it's about 5. 

[GMDino]

(09-22-2015, 01:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The question is not redundant, the point is If you suggest we shouldn't try to make things better over there then you must be willing to accept them over here. So you either get to be the "World's Police" or the "World's Housing project".

No it isn't.  I said its not a black and white situation.

It doesn't have to be either / or.

[GMDino]

(09-22-2015, 01:52 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Yes it's about 5. 

He knows them by name!  

[GodHatesBengals]

(09-22-2015, 01:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Tell you what, go spend about a month in Afghanistan and then come back and tell me if our country is "fixed".

No doubt that Afghanistan is a much more unpleasant place to live. Wanna address the actual content of the post now? Extra points if you can manage to not somehow bring up immigration.