Number 22

[*bfine32*]

(06-22-2019, 10:56 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You started a thread to point out Biden is innocent until proven guilty on page 4? Way to bury the lead.

You could have just admitted your biased assumption was wrong.

BTW, it took until page 4 because everyone was telling me that the title of a thread is more important than the content of the OP. They were so adamant that I'm sure they would never flip on such an assertion. 

[Dill]

(06-24-2019, 01:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You could have just admitted your biased assumption was wrong.

BTW, it took until page 4 because everyone was telling me that the title of a thread is more important than the content of the OP. They were so adamant that I'm sure they would never flip on such an assertion. 

You lost your critique-of-others'-bias privileges when you swallowed Hannity's version of Benghazi hook, line and sinker,

then let Barr read the Mueller report for you, 

and took Trump as his word when claimed he called off a strike against Iran for "humanitarian" reasons.

Meantime, you rushed to claim Obama exercised "undue influence" when he expressed public sympathy for Bergdoff's parents, and decided that to even report the FACT that Trump now has 22 public accusations of sexual assault lodged against him was to use "biased numbers"--all that before you joined Trump in questioning the motives of yet another alledged victim of Trump rape.    

[BmorePat87]

(06-24-2019, 01:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You could have just admitted your biased assumption was wrong.

BTW, it took until page 4 because everyone was telling me that the title of a thread is more important than the content of the OP. They were so adamant that I'm sure they would never flip on such an assertion. 

This is patently false. The OP was just you finishing the direct comparison you started in the title and then a link to the relevant story. 

You spent 4 pages saying that this direct comparison you made was not the point and that instead you were referring to Biden's criticism of Trump, even though it was never mentioned in the OP, and proceeded to blame everyone else for missing this. 

You then started demanding that people condemn Biden, giving snarky "that wasn't so hard" responses when they did even though your OP never called on people to.

By page 5, you finally granted Biden the same considerations you have given Trump when I said something about people excusing Trump but going after Biden.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-24-2019, 01:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You could have just admitted your biased assumption was wrong.

BTW, it took until page 4 because everyone was telling me that the title of a thread is more important than the content of the OP. They were so adamant that I'm sure they would never flip on such an assertion. 

You're correct. I assumed it was page four, but it was actually page five. Whereas here you began defending Trump with your first post on page one.

[Dill]

A sad development.

And a warning to any other women who may want to step forward with stories of presidential assault.

E. Jean Carroll No Longer Convinced Women Should Speak Out
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/e-jean-carroll-no-longer-convinced-women-should-speak-out/

Carroll told Alisyn Camerota that she decided to come forward amid the fallout of the #MeToo movement, saying, “Here I am advising the women what to do, and I myself thought it was my fault and had been quiet, so that’s changing.” As Carroll spoke of how Trump is just one of the “hideous men” she calls out in her book, Camerota asked her if she could confront the president: “What do you want to say?”

“That terrifies me that you said that,” Carroll answered. “It terrifies me…That is a terrible situation — even the question just terrifies me. I can hardly talk now that you said that.”

When Camerota continued to ask Carroll why she seems surprised by the amount of attention she got because of her accusations against Trump, the latter insisted that she would continue to hold the president accountable even as he continues to deny her claims. Eventually, Camerota asked, “What is the takeaway from all of this? What is the takeaway from women who have written to you and read your column and for women in 2019, what’s the message to them today?”

“I’m wary of giving advice that I gave yesterday to stand up and speak out,” Carroll said. “You get dragged through the muck and it’s not easy. So I am gonna stop saying ‘stand up and speak.’ I’m gonna stop saying that. It’s not fun.”

Carroll continued to explain that she has seen significant support since her claims came out, but, “I would never ask another human being to go through this.”

“Because even though you’re getting support, it’s unpleasant?” Camerota asked.

“I put my reputation on the line. I put my livelihood on the line…and I put my life on the line,” Carroll answered.

As Camerota tried to pin Carroll down on whether women need to speak out or not, Carroll responded that “now it’s a ball of confusion…now it’s tough.” This led to a conversation about the balance between empowering women and making sure they don’t bear the brunt of the impact their allegations may cause.

[NATI BENGALS]

Holy shit, I thought this thread was about the number of democratic presidential candidates.

I knew the reality tv show host conman was a sexual deviant. But putting a number on it. Is that real? Really 22 accusations?

[GMDino]

(06-25-2019, 01:35 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Holy shit, I thought this thread was about the number of democratic presidential candidates.

I knew the reality tv show host conman was a sexual deviant. But putting a number on it. Is that real? Really 22 accusations?

What really kills me is that DJT doesn't just deny it (despite his self-proclaimed willingness to do exactly what this particular woman says was done to her) but he always adds the caveat that he isn't even attracted to them.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/06/24/trump-e-jean-carroll-shes-not-my-type/1554116001/

Quote:Saying that "she's not my type," President Donald Trump on again denied Monday that he forced himself onto longtime advice columnist E. Jean Carroll.


“I’ll say it with great respect: Number one, she’s not my type," he said during an interview with The Hill. "Number two, it never happened. It never happened, OK?” 



Since Carroll came forward Friday with an accusation that Trump sexually assaulted her over 20 years ago, the president has repeatedly denied it, calling her a liar and saying the two have never even met.

It's simply amazing that every woman is "not his type"...and given his declining mental state he might not remember meeting her or the event.  I'm starting to think Trump will go the Reagan way of defense and claim a mental illness so avoid any prosecution for anything in the future (once out of office).

[CJD]

Accusations of wrongdoing against Trump have become so commonplace that they're practically background noise.

This is by design. If the people who support a person don't care that that person may have committed crimes, being accused of committing crimes will have no meaningful impact.

The only thing that will bring Trump down is irrefutable evidence. And there isn't a whole lot of that in 20 year old rape cases.

[GMDino]

(06-25-2019, 08:46 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Accusations of wrongdoing against Trump have become so commonplace that they're practically background noise.

This is by design. If the people who support a person don't care that that person may have committed crimes, being accused of committing crimes will have no meaningful impact.

The only thing that will bring Trump down is irrefutable evidence. And there isn't a whole lot of that in 20 year old rape cases.

Just like his constant lying.  It has become a DEFENSE for his supporters to say "Well, he always lies so it's no surprise."

I remember way back when Trump was just elected and we had a discussion on the boards about a newspaper that said they would not call what DJT does "lying".  I say we call a spade a spade but others felt he needed to be "given a chance" and that he might spin or stretch the truth.  

Nope.  He just lies.

Same as he always did.

He has mastered the art of acting badly and normalizing it for himself.

[jj22]

Biden puts his hand on a women's shoulder and Americans and the media end his POTUS hopes.

Musts be nice to be a Republican.

[Dill]

(06-25-2019, 08:46 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Accusations of wrongdoing against Trump have become so commonplace that they're practically background noise.

This is by design. If the people who support a person don't care that that person may have committed crimes, being accused of committing crimes will have no meaningful impact.

The only thing that will bring Trump down is irrefutable evidence. And there isn't a whole lot of that in 20 year old rape cases.

Not so sure about that.

On behalf of Trumps supporters I ask:

If he raped women BEFORE he was in office, how does that affect his job performance NOW?

[Dill]

(06-25-2019, 09:29 AM)GMDino Wrote: Just like his constant lying.  It has become a DEFENSE for his supporters to say "Well, he always lies so it's no surprise."

I remember way back when Trump was just elected and we had a discussion on the boards about a newspaper that said they would not call what DJT does "lying".  I say we call a spade a spade but others felt he needed to be "given a chance" and that he might spin or stretch the truth.  

Nope.  He just lies.

Same as he always did.

He has mastered the art of acting badly and normalizing it for himself.

It is the acceptance of this behavior that is driving standards down.

I am less disturbed at Trump normalizing his behavior to himself than the millions of voters who still think the Hillary of Right wing media and Russian trolls is "worse."   MAGA!

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-22-2019, 04:11 AM)Dill Wrote: ??? Not a peep from whom? when? where???

What "inconsistencies" of what "others" are you pointing out, while complaining about the "disdainful discounting" of others' concerns? And what do inconsistencies of others regarding Clinton have to do with a thread I started on the newest accusations against Trump?  Should they not be reported/discussed in this forum becomes some unnamed member won't respond to accusations against Clinton?  Could Bfine be obliquely arguing against some unnamed person's Clinton inconsistency? A shadow argument?

Trump is not simply "not morally virtuous." He is unstable. incompetent. vicious. publicly and pathologically so. He was elected anyway, and his behavior is defended every day. People defending him back themselves into corners. How could they not? There are only two ways to go: 1) arguing that his behavior is not really that bad (gaslighting), thereby destroying norms and lowering standards; or 2) arguing that others (Hillary, Bill, Obama) are really just as bad--the false equivalence as red herring. Either way is just throwing up smoke.

I have reported yet another rape accusation against Trump, clearly marked ALLEGED, and emphasized, along the way, the alleged victim's questionable take on her own alleged victimhood, and Bfine's first move is to complain my "numbers" presume him guilty.  I'm biased.  Somehow.

Following Trump's own misdirection tactic, Bfine then questions the timing of the victim's story, which coincides with the publication of her book, sent to the publisher long before any recent Trump announcement. I note that Trump filed his candidacy on his inauguration day (implication, Trump's candidacy is old news); and Bfine says I am wrong. When it turns out I'm not wrong, then he accuses me of substituting my words for his or some such, instead of explaining why his timing complaint should still have merit. So while I am addressing his points, he is, yet again, going down a side track. Hence not following the argument.

Seems to me he has been about as "disdainful" of my concerns as I of his. But as my complaint suggests, I would rather keep to facts of this case and the merit of arguments undermining the accuser's credibility then get off into the smoke of bias charges, disdain, and inconsistencies relating to Bill Clinton, not Trump.

I don't understand why she waited so long, why didn't she join the multitude of other women that came forward already?

Now it's fishy cause of the timing of her book Release Date: July 2, 2019. And Trumps announcement that he is indeed running again. Yes he filed way back, but it wasn't a certain thing back then when he filed that he would indeed run again.

Whether it's true or not, she did herself no favors in the credibility department.

[GMDino]

(06-25-2019, 02:41 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't understand why she waited so long, why didn't she join the multitude of other women that came forward already?

Now it's fishy cause of the timing of her book Release Date: July 2, 2019. And Trumps announcement that he is indeed running again. Yes he filed way back, but it wasn't a certain thing back then when he filed that he would indeed run again.

Whether it's true or not, she did herself no favors in the credibility department.

Okay...that's just silly.

He's held multiple rallies since signing up on his inauguration day for 2020.  Anyone who thought he might not run is just not paying attention.

As the rest it's been gone over and over about why some do not come forward sooner.  Timing or not there are still 22 women who have accused him...can they ALL be put off with "not my type" "I never met her" and "political attack"?

[Dill]

(06-25-2019, 02:41 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't understand why she waited so long, why didn't she join the multitude of other women that came forward already?

Now it's fishy cause of the timing of her book Release Date: July 2, 2019. And Trumps announcement that he is indeed running again. Yes he filed way back, but it wasn't a certain thing back then when he filed that he would indeed run again.

Whether it's true or not, she did herself no favors in the credibility department.

OtherMike, speaking man-to-man let's break this down systematically.

1. Mental health professionals tell us that it is very common for women to cover up their own rape out of shame and fear.  Just as it is common for rapists to counter-attack, going after the victims credibility and mental state.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-compassion-chronicles/201711/why-dont-victims-sexual-harassment-come-forward-sooner.      https://ocrsm.umd.edu/files/Why-Is-Sexual-Assault-Under-Reported.pdf

As she herself now says, Carroll does not advise other women to come forward. The social penalty is very great because so many still join the alleged rapist in attacking the victim. One goal of the #metoo movement was to break down these barriers. That is why we have seen scores of women come forward years after the fact to make their case against Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein, not to mention Biden's shoulder massages. Feminists tell us that in 2019, incredibly, we as a society still have a long ways to go, as men (and some women) --especially men in power--still tend to blame the victim, adding to the pressure on women not to come forward.

2.  Trump's very public filing for candidacy in 2017, and his constant campaign rallies since, have hardly rendered it "uncertain" whether he would run again.  He has, for example, almost daily discussed polls this year and discussed how many states in which he is "leading."

3. Carroll did not write her book on July 1.  Her manuscript was with the publisher for almost a year, and publication date was prepared long before Trump's announcement.  Do you think the publisher rushed publication because of Trump's announcement? Why not wait until next year's convention when he formally accepts re-nomination?

4. Finally, if you want to think carefully, skeptically, ask yourself this--what is the likelihood that a guy who already has 21 PUBLIC allegations of sexual assault, not to mention expensive dalliances with porn stars and playboy bunnies kept from his family, a guy who swore that he just can't keep from kissing women and "they let you" grab P if you are a celebrity, actually did it?  America's #1 liar says he didn't and accuses a victim, with a reputation for credibility, of lying. And she was "not his type"--as if that clinches it. Everyone should get a fair hearing. It is certainly possible some of the accusations against Trump is baseless. But surely Trump's own history, just the admitted parts, did him no favors in the credibility department.

In contrast, Obama has done himself many favors in the credibility department. If some woman came forward accusing Obama of rape, I would be more skeptical of the accuser, closely scrutinize the charges.  But if Obama called the accuser mentally unstable and "too ugly," then even Obama would lose credibility in this case, despite his previous sterling record.  Because that is how rapists typically, cavalierly respond to their victim's accusations.

Just keeping this in context, the far more serious problem is why, given what was already known of Trump before the election, so many dismissed concerns about his character, honesty and competence and elected him anyway.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-25-2019, 02:41 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't understand why she waited so long, why didn't she join the multitude of other women that came forward already?

Now it's fishy cause of the timing of her book Release Date: July 2, 2019. And Trumps announcement that he is indeed running again. Yes he filed way back, but it wasn't a certain thing back then when he filed that he would indeed run again.

Whether it's true or not, she did herself no favors in the credibility department.

Why did Jerry Sandusky's victims wait so long? Or all the altar boys sexually assaulted by Catholic priests? Or the US gymnasts or the Ohio State athletes assaulted by team doctors?

[BakertheBeast]

In a way I see Mike's point about waiting so long. It turns into a she said/he said stalemate. Too bad she didn't save the cloths she wore or something. Maybe if after Trump is out of office about twenty of those women pressed charges against him like what happened to Cosby they might bust him. Till then he will just lie and deny.
There is no doubt in my mind he did it.

[Dill]

(06-26-2019, 06:16 AM)BakertheBeast Wrote: In a way I see Mike's point about waiting so long. It turns into a she said/he said stalemate. Too bad she didn't save the cloths she wore or something. Maybe if after Trump is out of office about twenty of those women pressed charges against him like what happened to Cosby they might bust him. Till then he will just lie and deny.
There is no doubt in my mind he did it.

Well, she does say that she saved the clothes. She kept them in a closet all these years and would not touch them--another indicator of trauma.

This is a he said/22 women said type of stalemate. And the "he" is our Liar-and-P-grabber-in-chief.

[BakertheBeast]

(06-26-2019, 11:45 AM)Dill Wrote: Well, she does say that she saved the clothes. She kept them in a closet all these years and would not touch them--another indicator of trauma.

This is a he said/22 women said type of stalemate. And the "he" is our Liar-and-P-grabber-in-chief.

Then, like Monica if there is any of his defective DNA on that dress, wouldn't that be enough to do him in assuming there is no statue of limitations?
Or would he change his story and say it was consensual  and deny that he ever said he didn't know her?

[GMDino]

The two friends that the accuser shared her story with are now known.

And how they describe the attack put an interesting spin on this that I think DJT would have a hard time arguing against besides simply denying he even knew her or that it ever happened.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/podcasts/the-daily/e-jean-carroll-trump-interview.html

These are strong women who I don't think would be easily intimidated or fluffed off by the likes of the Right Wing Attack Machine.

Here is the article mentioned in the podcast.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/jean-carroll-trump-sexual-assault.html