Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Obama is the Next FDR
#61
(06-10-2015, 12:59 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Japan was not a friend, in fact they resented us.

The story of the transition from aggression in China in 1937 to the attack on Pearl Harbor is a complex one that includes an alliance with Germany and Italy—the alliance of the nations that believed they were excluded from full membership in the Western imperialist order--and the fall of France. But it is very important to keep in mind that the war in China was central to the Japanese decision to go to war with Britain and America. Since Japan’s generals could not accept the fact that the Japanese imperial army could not defeat Chiang Kai-shek’s and Mao Zedong’s soldiers in an army-versus-army conflict (although they should have understood the problems of pacifying a country with a continental scale), they had to find another explanation for Japan’s inability to achieve victory in China. The answer they came up with was Anglo-American support of China. The way to defeat China was to cut off its supply lines from the West—in other words, move into Hong Kong and Southeast Asia. There were other reasons that the Japanese army decided to move into French Indo-China, and then to attack the American, British and Dutch colonies—but one important reason was to outflank China, to cut off its connections with the allied powers.

[Image: 514.JPG]

The Japanese Empire, 1870-1942

One should keep in mind that it was in fact Japan, not China, that had benefited from these countries’ support. Japan’s primary source of raw materials like petroleum and scrap iron for its war in China, and of high-end technology like machine tools was the United States. In 1938 the United States (57.1 per cent), the United Kingdom and its empire (Malaya, Canada, India, Australia, 20.7 per cent), and the Dutch and Dutch East Indies (8.6 per cent) supplied 86.4 per cent of Japan’s imported war materials. The United States produced 60% of the world’s oil; the Dutch East Indies less than 10%; 55% of Japan’s oil came from the United States, 14% from the Soviet Union, and 10% from the Dutch Indies. I have a photograph of a dinner party held on December 7, 1939, at the Duquesne Club in Pittsburgh, at which George T. Ladd, Chairman of United Engineering Foundry Company, entertained Colonel S. Atsumi of the Imperial Japanese Army and his entourage. UEF had built a factory to produce rolling mill machinery in Japan in 1938.
When Japan moved into the French colony in Indo-China in the summer of 1941, the United States responded by freezing Japanese assets in US banks, cutting Japan off from American scrap iron, petroleum, and technology—illustrating Takahashi’s warning about Japan’s dependence on the West. Denied access to US petroleum and iron, Japan had to look elsewhere: British Malaya for iron ore and the Dutch East Indies for oil. This led to the decision to attack Southeast Asia, and the United States bases in the Philippines and Hawaii to protect the Japanese navy’s flank. One mistaken step led inexorably to another, and the Japanese in 1941, while still bogged down in China, went to war with a country that had an industrial capacity nine times theirs—in fact, one American city, Pittsburgh, produced three times more steel than all of Japan did during World War II. Manchuria, envisaged as Japan’s industrial base for war, at the peak of its steel production in 1943, was out-produced by Pittsburgh, by forty times.
Which brings us back to the beginning. The Western imperialist impact on Japan set in motion a series of events: the rise of Japanese nationalism, of Japanese economic and military power, of Japan’s quest for empire, of Japanese emigration to America and elsewhere, and of the Western reaction to all of these things, that led almost a century later to Pearl Harbor. One cannot say that Pearl Harbor was the “inevitable delayed rejoinder” to Perry’s visit of 1853—far from it. In fact, as we have seen, Japan took two basic approaches Japan in its relations with the British and Americans. We have described them as the cooperative and the autarkic approaches. Unfortunately for Japan and the Asia-Pacific, those who advocated an autonomous, independent, militarized approach to dealing with the world won out after 1936, leading Japan into a cataclysmic and vastly destructive war that it was not economically, materially, or technologically equipped to fight. Only after Japan’s defeat in 1945, did its postwar leaders return to the cooperative policies of men like Takahashi

Yes I read all that .... Are we better off with a communist asia.... Or would we have been better off letting Japan and China fight it out and just supply them both ... bolstering our economy and keeping out of wars that did not concern us.

Yes we manipulated Japan and showed them how to be a power, and sold them the means, then we expect them to not use those means? We made the very same mistake on a smaller scale in the middle east. The only differnce is we didn't allow Iran and others to get a massive army. .... We only allowed egypt which was in our pocket.

Now by smashing Japan, we gave room for communism to spread, and now China is building up their navy and working closely with the Russians .... Basically using the UN to block any reform to the region.

I would have rather taken my chances with Japan.... There was no way they were coming our way .... They would have kept russia out of europe by being at their doorstep. Smashing. Japan allowed the soviets to focus on the Middle East and europe.
#62
Progressive foreign Policy vs Founders Foreign Policy.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/09/remaking-the-world-progressivism-and-american-foreign-policy

Quote:“The world must be made safe for democracy.”[1] Thus did President Woodrow Wilson, addressing Congress in 1917, summarize America’s high purpose in entering the First World War.

At first glance, Wilson’s particular vision of America’s role in the world may not sound radically new. Since the Founding, Americans had fondly hoped that the United States, through its foreign policy and the example it set, would foster the spread of freedom and self-government among the peoples of the Earth. This aspiration had always been central to what Americans considered exceptional about their republic.

But Wilson’s call to spread democracy was more urgent and pressing, more obligatory. To answer this call, the United States would be obliged to take on a much more active role in making the world into something new, and it would do so through force if necessary. Wilson’s foreign policy demanded action for the sake of a principle—the spread of freedom and democracy—that he was unshakably certain was right in and of itself.

Quote:Wilson’s foreign policy arose from a set of beliefs that were widely shared among Progressives at the time and continue to exert influence on both the Right and Left today. These ideals are fundamentally opposed to the principles of the American Founding. Because they take their bearings from different foundational principles, heirs to the Progressives and the American Founders give very different answers to the questions of why and how we should go about promoting freedom abroad.

Heirs to the Progressives tend to emphasize that the primary, if not exclusive, purpose of the use of force abroad should be to promote the freedom and welfare of other peoples. Heirs to the American Founders, on the other hand, tend to believe that the use of force abroad should be employed first and foremost for the sake of securing the lives and liberty of America’s own citizens.
#63
(06-10-2015, 02:01 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:
Quote:Never said anything about mass killings.   Yes big difference between what FDR and what hitler did...  But we still rounded up a specific group of people nationwide and trapped them in camps because they were themselves.    Progressives have a history of this in america.
   And I didn't say that you did say anything about mass killings.  But when you say things like "as I remember it FDR and Hitler were the only ones putting people in concentration camps", you're inferring that A. FDR is as bad as Hitler and B. That they were the only ones putting people in concentration camps.  Neither is true.  And it has nothing to do with "progressives" doing this.  This country has been rampant with racism and  intolerant of immigrants throughout its history, regardless of political party and/or ideology. 


Quote:But yes your right....  There is a diffence between Hitler and FDR/Wilson.... But we certainly don't treat FDR and Wilson the same as we do .... Southern white slave owners who also rounded up a particular group ..... Not sure what's worse.... That private citizens did this ..... Or the federal government.... Led by men who believe the power should be taken away from the legislature and given to the executive branch .....
Neither is worse, one is just as bad as the other.  Heck the founding fathers were slave owners (I know it's a cliché point, but then again so is FDR's Japanese camps).  No doubt this country has had a troublesome history.  But I feel like we are making progress.


Quote:And glad you had fun at the game ))
Thanks I did, my son and nephew got autographs by Frazier.
#64
(06-10-2015, 02:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:
Quote:Yes I read all that ....
Yet you seem to dismiss a majority of it


Quote:Are we better off with a communist asia....
Who know knows? However the communists were far from being defeated even if we hadn't intervened (as mentioned in the article.)

Quote:Or would we have been better off letting Japan and China fight it out and just supply them both ... bolstering our economy  and keeping out of wars that did not concern us.
  No way we supply both and at the same time stay out of said wars.  Japan chose sides for us when they attacked us.  You have to remember that there was an internal struggle in Japan on how to deal with western imperialism.  In the end Japanese militarism won that internal struggle.


Quote:Yes we manipulated Japan and showed them how to be a power, and sold them the means, then we expect them to not use those means?
  Pretty much what happened,  But this was not just a FDR or Wilson policy, this was more of a western imperialistic world view since we bullied Japan into opening its borders to trade in the 1850's

Quote: We made the very same mistake on a smaller scale in the middle east.   The only differnce is we didn't allow Iran and others to get a massive army. ....  We only allowed egypt which was in our pocket.
   You won't get any denial from me that similar parallels can be drawn regarding todays conflicts.  Though I don't think I'd sum it up quite the same as you have.  But that's for a whole other game of connect the dots.


Quote:Now by smashing Japan, we gave room for communism to spread,
Again that is pure speculation.  No way to say that communism wouldn't have won out in the end, nor can we say that we'd be better of by not "smashing" Japan.

Quote:and now China is building up their navy and working closely with the Russians .... Basically using the UN to block any reform to the region.
   The relationship between Russia and China has always ebbed and flowed, nothing new there.  Honestly I'm more worried about Russian than China at the moment.


Quote:I would have rather taken my chances with Japan....
Well at the time western empires felt Japan was getting to big for their britches so to speak, with their encroachment on those territories.

Quote:There was no way they were coming our way ....
I'm not so sure about that.  Nationalism and militarism was the overpowering voice in Japan at the time.  Who's to say how far they would've pushed those limits.

Quote:They would have kept russia out of europe by being at their doorstep.    Smashing. Japan allowed the soviets to focus on the Middle East and Europe.
Who knows how long WWII would have dragged on if Hitler didn't have a massive Russian army to fight on its eastern front.

You're playing a lot of "what if" games here, which I do find interesting.  Here's one for you...what if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia? Would they (Russia) have been more engaged in the war with Japan?  Talk about spreading communism! I think it would be doubtful we have the Korean war, and South east Asia may have just become a cold war stale mate much like eastern Europe.  Lots of interesting scenarios that could've played out.
#65
I can't quote what you said above but i will address a Cpl things. As far as playing "what if" that's all we can do .... But one thing is for certain we saw what the region did after Japan was gone. It's a mess....

Had operation snow not happened and FDR let Japan and China fight it out. And forced a possible Japan - russian engagement .... There probably would have been an agreement with Stalin and Hitler.... Just as Stalin tried at the beginning .....

It actually would have been a better deal for us as a nation.... having Stalin on our side was disgusting considering he was a criminal and mass murderer. Having him on the side of the allies just further legitimized his reign to his own people.

As far as today Russia vs China.... They are one in the same.... If anyone thinks they aren't making moves together ..... They need to take a hard look. China is already making moves to the waters there .... Russia is making moves to europe..... Am I the only one who sees these actions as not a coincidence?

Unrest in Europe over the future of the EU.... Plus we got nationalism being fueled in europe .... As facist parties grow in popularity. Russia already has the main pipeline going into europe.... They are close to getting the second pipeline and that goes through syria.....
#66
(06-10-2015, 02:25 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Progressive foreign Policy vs Founders Foreign Policy.  

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/09/remaking-the-world-progressivism-and-american-foreign-policy

That's certainly interesting given that Wilson was a pacifist, and wanted nothing to do with Europe's wars.  I'm sure he was trying to sound like strong president, given the toll that unrestricted submarine warfare had taken on US merchant shipping.  We were neutral remember.  And even then it took congress four days to grant a declaration of war.  FDR got a declaration war the day of Pearl harbor.

You go on about the founders security policies, but damn since this country's inception, we've done nothing but spread and expand!

You have a weird obsession with "progressives".  You're obviously fairly conservative, but I've heard you say that progressive isn't exactly the same as being liberal, and even say that there are progressives amongst conservatives.  I would like to know what a progressives ideology is?  At least from your point of view.
#67
Glad you could admit that FDR and Wilson were as bad as Slave owners. The issue I have is that history teachers choose to ignore this fact... Because educators are pushing the progressive agenda .

These times should be marked as dark times in our history and society. World Wars, Atom bombs, rounding americans up into camps, eugenics, seizing state lands, creating the FBi without congressional approval.... Yet we hear how much these monsters did for us and leave out how they tainted our nation and corrupted our souls.

And yes I know it was Teddy Roosevelt who did the FBI and seized state lands.
#68
(06-10-2015, 04:00 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:
Quote:I can't quote what you said above but i will address a Cpl things.   As far as playing "what if" that's all we can do .... But one thing is for certain we saw what the region did after Japan was gone.   It's a mess....

Try to imagine if we hadn't intervened and Russia and China did duke it out with Japan. We  and the other western nations had colonies in the South Pacific, no way western powers don't intervene.

Quote:Had operation snow not happened and FDR let Japan and China fight it out.   And forced a possible Japan - russian engagement ....  There probably would have been an agreement with Stalin and Hitler.... Just as Stalin tried at the beginning .....
 
The war only prolongs with you're scenario IMO. Only difference is Russia is forced fight on two fronts, because no way do Hitler and Stalin reach an agreement after Hitler broke the first one.  And I don't think Japan forces an engagement with Russia when already in conflict with China and the other western powers.

Quote:It actually would have been a better deal for us as a nation....  having Stalin on our side was disgusting considering he was a criminal and mass murderer.   Having him on the side of the allies just further legitimized his reign to his own people.
 I don't know about that.  As disgusting as that man was, it is as they say "an enemy of my enemy my friend" Hitler did us a favor by invading Russia.  Who knows how many more allied casualties we would've taken had Hitler not erroneously invade Russia.  There are alternate history theories that believe we may not have won if he hadn't invaded them.


Quote:As far as today Russia vs China....  They are one in the same.... If anyone thinks they aren't making moves together .....   They need to take a hard look.   China is already making moves to the waters there .... Russia is making moves to europe.....   Am I the only one who sees these actions as not a coincidence?      

Unrest in Europe over the future of the EU....  Plus we got nationalism being fueled in europe .... As facist parties grow in popularity.     Russia already has the main pipeline going into europe.... They are close to getting the second pipeline and that goes through syria.....
The rest here is a debate for another day I've got to get some sleep. Peace.
#69
(06-10-2015, 04:12 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Glad you could admit that FDR and Wilson were as bad as Slave owners.    The issue I have is that history teachers choose to ignore this fact...  Because educators are pushing the progressive agenda .

These times should be marked as dark times in our history and society.   World Wars, Atom bombs, rounding americans up into camps, eugenics, seizing state lands, creating the FBi without congressional approval....  Yet we hear how much these monsters did for us and leave out how they tainted our nation and corrupted our souls.

And yes I know it was Teddy Roosevelt who did the FBI and seized state lands.

Oh Lord, I'll get to this at another time.  Gotta get some sleep Bang Head

Have a good night.
#70
(06-10-2015, 04:01 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: That's certainly interesting given that Wilson was a pacifist, and wanted nothing to do with Europe's wars.  I'm sure he was trying to sound like strong president, given the toll that unrestricted submarine warfare had taken on US merchant shipping.  We were neutral remember.  And even then it took congress four days to grant a declaration of war.  FDR got a declaration war the day of Pearl harbor.

You go on about the founders security policies, but damn since this country's inception, we've done nothing but spread and expand!

You have a weird obsession with "progressives".  You're obviously fairly conservative, but I've heard you say that progressive isn't exactly the same as being liberal, and even say that there are progressives amongst conservatives.  I would like to know what a progressives ideology is?  At least from your point of view.

I really like what you said here.... On wilson being a pacifist. Here is where Wilson went wrong Imo..... He was an academic, so he had theory to work from ... No real life expiernwce to apply... He also thought he knew best how people should live... And he thought he could fix people's lives by making decisions for them... That it would fix their problems. In doing that he was actually stealing their freedom. He did have the best intentions .... But so did hitler, lenin, and others.... And when you sell supplies to nations at war ships will be sunk especially when your sending supplies on commercial ships with civilian passengers. So they knew what they were doing .... He could have stayed out of it.... But he thought he was smart enough to fix the worlds problems with his theories.... Which is why he forced himself into the war by forcing russia to stay in the war as a condition on their loan instead of letting them pull out of WW1 to crush lenin's resistance. He didn't mean for lenin to come to power, but by forcing russia to stay in he gave Lenin the opening to do so....

As far as progressives..... Whether they are democrat or republican.. They share the belief that they should "spread democracy around the world" which is fine but both use the military to accomplish this..... Both spend money domestically as well.... Bailouts, healthcare, etc. Quantitative easing has screwed us since Hoover.....

I have such a disdain for progress policies not because i am conservative on many issues.... But they have stripped away our rights little by little.... And that's a liberal thing. No way a classic liberal supports these policies, they stand for everything liberals have fought against ....

Progressives has spent 100 years taking over labels like liberal and conservative.

Take the GOP for example. NeoCons are the modern progressives. The evangelicals take on a more Teddy Roosevelt progressive mindset by trying to force their view of life decisions on us instead of letting us all live our lives. They are terrible with their own regulations.

Last true conservative president .... Calvin Coolidge. .... Mr Roaring 20's ... Because he rolled back plenty of the Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson shenanigans. I think Reagan could have been but a democrat house and senate never let him have his way all the way.

As far as the last Classic liberal president .... Maybe Kennedy..... To be fair I haven't really taken a hard look back to see.
#71
(06-10-2015, 04:34 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Oh Lord, I'll get to this at another time.  Gotta get some sleep Bang Head

Have a good night.

Haha cya ... Good night mate
#72
(06-10-2015, 04:44 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  But he thought he was smart enough to fix the worlds problems with his theories.... 

You mean like the people who have theories about how we have to stop Islam from taking over Europe?

Smirk
#73
Founding fathers were all progressives.

They believed that the government should promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty.

They clearly planned on "stealing our freedom" from the very beginning.
#74
(06-10-2015, 04:44 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I really like what you said here....   On wilson being a pacifist.   Here is where Wilson went wrong Imo..... He was an academic, so he had theory to work from ... No real life expiernwce to apply... He also thought he knew best how people should live... And he thought he could fix people's lives by making decisions for them... That it would fix their problems.   In doing that he was actually stealing their freedom.    He did have the best intentions .... But so did hitler, lenin, and others....  And when you sell supplies to nations at war ships will be sunk especially when your sending supplies on commercial ships with civilian passengers.   So they knew what they were doing ....   He could have stayed out of it....  But he thought he was smart enough to fix the worlds problems with his theories.... Which is why he forced himself into the war by forcing russia to stay in the war as a condition on their loan instead of letting them pull out of WW1 to crush lenin's resistance.    He didn't mean for lenin to come to power, but by forcing russia to stay in he gave Lenin the opening to do so....

As far as progressives..... Whether they are democrat or republican..  They share the belief that they should "spread democracy around the world"  which is fine but both use the military to accomplish this..... Both spend money domestically as well....  Bailouts, healthcare, etc.   Quantitative easing has screwed us since Hoover.....  

I have such a disdain for progress policies not because i am conservative on many issues.... But they have stripped away our rights little by little.... And that's a liberal thing.    No way a classic liberal supports these policies, they stand for everything liberals have fought against ....  

Progressives has spent 100 years taking over labels like liberal and conservative.    

Take the GOP for example.   NeoCons are the modern progressives.   The evangelicals take on a more Teddy Roosevelt progressive mindset by trying to force their view of life decisions on us instead of letting us all live our lives.   They are terrible with their own regulations.  

Last true conservative president .... Calvin Coolidge. .... Mr Roaring 20's ... Because he rolled back plenty of the Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson shenanigans.    I think Reagan could have been but a democrat house and senate never let him have his way all the way.  

As far as the last Classic liberal president .... Maybe Kennedy.....  To be fair I haven't really taken a hard look back to see.

Coolidge really?  Doesn't surprise me I guess.  Carnegie and Schwab were his personal heroes, and he did have a booming economy in the short run, but at the expense of the lower classes.  All of his social programs were negative (with the exception of some minor road building) including his refusal to work on behalf of black Americans and their civil rights, and his strict and discriminatory immigration policy. Completely off his radar were the millions of American poor, elderly, urban blacks and American farm workers.  It was said that "he was a president for the 'haves' and not the 'have-nots'."  His small town simplistic self-help philosophy were inadequate for the 20th century.  Though signs of trouble in the stock market were evident by the late 20's he did nothing to avert the crisis.  Instead, at the last moment, he announced his decision not to seek a second full term.  So in retirement he watched the economy come apart under his successor Herbert Hoover.  Coolidge was quoted by a newspaperman "I am no longer fit for these times, we are in a new era to which I do not belong."

I guess we have different definitions on what a good president is or was.
#75
(06-10-2015, 04:44 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I really like what you said here....   On wilson being a pacifist.   Here is where Wilson went wrong Imo..... He was an academic, so he had theory to work from ... No real life expiernwce to apply... He also thought he knew best how people should live... And he thought he could fix people's lives by making decisions for them... That it would fix their problems.   In doing that he was actually stealing their freedom.    He did have the best intentions .... But so did hitler, lenin, and others....  And when you sell supplies to nations at war ships will be sunk especially when your sending supplies on commercial ships with civilian passengers.   So they knew what they were doing ....   He could have stayed out of it....  But he thought he was smart enough to fix the worlds problems with his theories.... Which is why he forced himself into the war by forcing russia to stay in the war as a condition on their loan instead of letting them pull out of WW1 to crush lenin's resistance.    He didn't mean for lenin to come to power, but by forcing russia to stay in he gave Lenin the opening to do so....

Lenin was in exile for a lot of WWI.  The Germans purposely brought him back to Russia because he was promising to get Russia out of war (which he did), freeing up Germany's eastern front. None of that had anything to do with Wilson.

However that being said another motive for Wilsons decision to join the allies was because he knew that if Germany won the war,  We would lose millions of dollars in debt to us by our European allies.
#76
(06-10-2015, 11:50 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Coolidge really?  Doesn't surprise me I guess.  Carnegie and Schwab were his personal heroes, and he did have a booming economy in the short run, but at the expense of the lower classes.  All of his social programs were negative (with the exception of some minor road building) including his refusal to work on behalf of black Americans and their civil rights, and his strict and discriminatory immigration policy. Completely off his radar were the millions of American poor, elderly, urban blacks and American farm workers.  It was said that "he was a president for the 'haves' and not the 'have-nots'."  His small town simplistic self-help philosophy were inadequate for the 20th century.  Though signs of trouble in the stock market were evident by the late 20's he did nothing to avert the crisis.  Instead, at the last moment, he announced his decision not to seek a second full term.  So in retirement he watched the economy come apart under his successor Herbert Hoover.  Coolidge was quoted by a newspaperman "I am no longer fit for these times, we are in a new era to which I do not belong."

I guess we have different definitions on what a good president is or was.

Herbert Hoover caused a recession to go into the Great Depression because of his insistence wages stay high during the recession (when in the past all wages dropped in the lean years). He also pushed a massive public works project through that never did anything but waste money. Oh and he used QE to try and manipulate us out of trouble.

Recessions happen, but had we always done what we had in the prior recessions and cut wages through the lean times then we would have been ok and raised wages when the economy got healthy again.

And Coolidge didn't run again because he made it clear that the presidency wasn't a monarchy. He believed as Washington. FDR on the other hand thought he was above the office.
#77
(06-11-2015, 12:16 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Lenin was in exile for a lot of WWI.  The Germans purposely brought him back to Russia because he was promising to get Russia out of war (which he did), freeing up Germany's eastern front. None of that had anything to do with Wilson.

However that being said another motive for Wilsons decision to join the allies was because he knew that if Germany won the war,  We would lose millions of dollars in debt to us by our European allies.

Read Wilson's war, you would enjoy it I believe.

Quote: American entry in World War I helped produce another terrible consequence: the November 1917 Bolshevik coup in Russia. The country had been deteriorating ever since Czar Nicholas II entered the war in 1914. It led to millions of Russian casualties, drained the country’s finances, generated devastating inflation, caused pervasive shortages, and discredited the government and the army.

France and Britain had to know they were playing with fire when they pressured the Russians to stay in the war so that German forces would continue to be tied up on the Eastern Front. The last thing France and Britain wanted was for Russia to make a separate peace with Germany and thereby enable the Germans to transfer forces to the Western Front. Allied pressure assured that the deterioration of Russia would continue or even accelerate.

Following the spontaneous revolution and abdication of the czar in March 1917, Wilson authorized David Francis, his ambassador to Russia, to offer the Provisional Government $325 million of credits — equivalent to perhaps $3.9 billion today — if Russia stayed in the war. The Provisional Government was broke, and it accepted Wilson’s terms: “No fight, no loans.”

Wilson was oblivious to the fact that ordinary Russians had nothing to gain from whatever happened on the Western Front, which was his sole concern. The Bolsheviks exploited deteriorating conditions brought on or aggravated by the war. They were the only ones on the Russian political scene who advocated withdrawal. Lenin’s slogan was “Peace, land, and bread.”

For a while, despite all of Russia’s problems, the Bolsheviks weren’t able to make much headway. In elections for the Constituent Assembly, they never received more than a quarter of the votes. Lenin failed three times to seize power during the summer of 1917. It wasn’t until the fall of 1917, when the Russian army collapsed, that the Bolsheviks were able to seize power.

Quote: The diplomat and historian George F. Kennan observed, “it may be questioned whether the United States government, in company with other western Allies, did not actually hasten and facilitate the failure of the Provisional Government by insisting that Russia should continue the war effort, and by making this demand the criterion for its support. In asking the leaders of the Provisional Government simultaneously to consolidate their political power and to revive and continue participation in the war, the Allies were asking the impossible.”

What might have happened in Russia if the United States had stayed out of World War I? Russia almost certainly would have quit the war earlier, with the Russian Army still intact and capable of defending the Provisional
Government from a Bolshevik coup.


Quote: CONCLUSION
Thanks to Wilson’s misguided policies, the Bolshevik coup led to seven decades of Soviet communism. Historian R. J. Rummel estimated that almost 62 million people were killed by the Soviet government. He estimated that all 20th-century communist regimes killed between 110 million and 260 million people.

Nothing Wilson did could compensate for the colossal blunder of entering World War I. He claimed his League of Nations would help prevent future wars, but charter members of the League of Nations were most of the winners of the war and their friends — countries that hadn’t been fighting each other. They vowed to continue not fighting each other. Member nations agreed to join in defending any of them that might be attacked, which meant that the league was another alliance. An attack on one member nation would lead to a wider war. The World War I losers weren’t members.

Wilson’s admirers tend to blame postwar troubles on Republicans in Congress who refused to support his beloved League of Nations. Wilson’s arrogance toward Congress and his refusal to compromise had a lot to do with that. He failed to recognize that he couldn’t control his allies, he couldn’t control the losers, and he couldn’t control Congress. World War I should remind us that the consequences of war are extremely difficult to predict and often impossible to control. The world would have been better off if America had stayed out of that war and pursued a policy of armed neutrality.


http://www.cato.org/policy-report/mayjune-2014/woodrow-wilsons-great-mistake
#78
(06-11-2015, 12:16 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Lenin was in exile for a lot of WWI.  The Germans purposely brought him back to Russia because he was promising to get Russia out of war (which he did), freeing up Germany's eastern front. None of that had anything to do with Wilson.

However that being said another motive for Wilsons decision to join the allies was because he knew that if Germany won the war,  We would lose millions of dollars in debt to us by our European allies.

As far as whether Germany was going to win the war..... That war was obviously going to end in a stalemate and everyone would have gone home with relative ability to save face.... However wilson wanted the allies to win a lopsided victory which germany lost loads of their lands and money. Which sent the people looking for someone who wanted to promotw german values, make germany the pinnacle the of the world. This gave way to the Nazi's rhetoric.... German jobs for Germans.... Wilson's mistake here is exactly why we don't leave a country in ruins after a war any longer.

We are still paying for the mistakes of Wilson's policies giving birth to the nazi's ... We still fight then today.
#79
(06-11-2015, 05:30 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Read Wilson's war, you would enjoy it I believe.  






http://www.cato.org/policy-report/mayjune-2014/woodrow-wilsons-great-mistake

I did enjoy it, still seemed pretty biased though.  I should point out that I'm not defending Wilson, he certainly had many faults.  I thought this was a pretty good read as well.  It would appear that portraying Wilson as the worst person in American history is the new in thing among Conservative Libertarians.  At least Glenn Beck feels that way. I highlighted the more interesting parts but the whole article is worth the read.

Articles Featuring Woodrow Wilson From History Net Magazines
  • Featured Article
  • More Woodrow Wilson Articles
  • More Woodrow Wilson Articles
Featured Article


How did Woodrow Wilson become America’s most hated President?
By Paula Span
A chorus of conservative pundits portray Wilson as the man at the helm when everything began to go wrong for America
The Pulitzer Prize–winning columnist George Will made a startling assertion when he took the podium last year at a banquet sponsored by the Cato Institute, the libertarian think tank in Washington, D.C. “I firmly believe that the most important decision taken anywhere in the 20th century was where to locate the Princeton graduate college,” Will declared.
The university’s president, Woodrow Wilson, then a high-minded political scientist who’d yet to run for public office, insisted that the new residential college be integrated into the main campus. But after a lengthy and bitter academic feud, in 1910 the university’s trustees and donors sided with the graduate school dean, who chose a more secluded location adjoining a golf course.
“When Wilson lost,” Will told the black-tie crowd, “he had one of his characteristic tantrums, went into politics and ruined the 20th century.”
[Image: 95x122xamerican-history-cover.jpg.pagesp...v-HJv8.jpg]Read More in American History Magazine

Subscribe online and save nearly 40%!!!
The audience chortled and applauded, but Will was only half-joking. Wilson left Princeton for a new career as a crusading politician, and after soaring to national prominence during a short stint as Democratic governor of New Jersey, in 1912 he became the only scholar with a Ph.D. ever elected president of the United States. In his first term he pushed through a flurry of Progressive Era economic and regulatory reforms, and during the second he was hailed abroad as “the savior of humanity” after America and its allies had won World War I. Wilson remains a top-10 perennial on historians’ lists of outstanding presidents. But as the centennial of his ascension to the White House nears, he has also become a target for an increasingly raucous chorus of conservative pundits who portray him as the man at the helm when everything began to go wrong in America.
Will whimsically refers to Wilson as “The Root Of Much Mischief.” Others are less subtle or circumspect. They blame Wilson for things he did, like creating the FederalThe Pulitzer Prize–winning columnist George Will made a startling assertion when he took the podium last year at a banquet sponsored by the Cato Institute, the libertarian think tank in Washington, D.C. “I firmly believe that the most important decision taken anywhere in the 20th century was where to locate the Princeton graduate college,” Will declared.
The university’s president, Woodrow Wilson, then a high-minded political scientist who’d yet to run for public office, insisted that the new residential college be integrated into the main campus. But after a lengthy and bitter academic feud, in 1910 the university’s trustees and donors sided with the graduate school dean, who chose a more secluded location adjoining a golf course.
“When Wilson lost,” Will told the black-tie crowd, “he had one of his characteristic tantrums, went into politics and ruined the 20th century.”
The audience chortled and applauded, but Will was only half-joking. Wilson left Princeton for a new career as a crusading politician, and after soaring to national prominence during a short stint as Democratic governor of New Jersey, in 1912 he became the only scholar with a Ph.D. ever elected president of the United States. In his first term he pushed through a flurry of Progressive Era economic and regulatory reforms, and during the second he was hailed abroad as “the savior of humanity” after America and its allies had won World War I. Wilson remains a top-10 perennial on historians’ lists of outstanding presidents. But as the centennial of his ascension to the White House nears, he has also become a target for an increasingly raucous chorus of conservative pundits who portray him as the man at the helm when everything began to go wrong in America.

Will whimsically refers to Wilson as “The Root Of Much Mischief.” Others are less subtle or circumspect. They blame Wilson for things he did, like creating the Federal Reserve System and implementing a progressive income tax, and for things he didn’t do, like supporting eugenics or causing World War II. “The 20th Century’s first fascist dictator,” National Review columnist and Fox News contributor Jonah Gold­berg called Wilson in his book Liberal Fascism. To tearily dramatic radio talk show host Glenn Beck, Wilson has become nothing less than the source of all political evil. “This is the architect that destroyed our faith, he destroyed our Constitution and he destroyed our founders, OK?” Beck ranted on the air last spring. “He started it!”
Nor is Wilson generating much praise from liberals who might be expected to defend him. Wilson was a bigot who sanctioned official segregation in Washington, D.C., say critics on the left. He used America’s entry into World War I as a rationale for crushing civil liberties. He was autocratic.
Such assaults on an intensely cerebral president, to whom many contemporary Americans have given scant thought since memorizing “League of Nations” for their history SATs, may reflect our ongoing jousting about the proper role of government—a question that intrigued Wilson himself since his graduate school days. They also reflect the fact that another Democrat with an ambitious first-term agenda now occupies the White House. If culture wars can rage over museum exhibits, Christmas and nutritional advice, why not over the 28th president of the United States?
“He was what we’d call today a polarizing figure,” says Barksdale Maynard, a Wilson biographer prone to scholarly understatement.
From the bay window of the Princeton president’s office in 1879 Hall, Maynard points out during a walking tour of the university’s spired campus, Wilson could gaze directly down Prospect Avenue at the row of eating clubs he despised and tried in vain to vanquish. It must have been a galling view. Alumni had built these sprawling brick and stone mansions, and the groups had grown so socially important by the turn of the 20th century that hopeful preppies sometimes focused their campus visits on Tiger Inn or the Ivy Club, ignoring the adjacent university where they were supposed to be educated. “Wilson regarded these clubs as antithetical to what he was trying to build at Princeton,” says Maynard. “It was the son of a Presbyterian minister from the South confronting the New York aristocrats.”
So why wouldn’t today’s conservative populists, Tea Party supporters for instance, like Thomas Woodrow Wilson? A God-fearing lifelong churchgoer, he was the son, grandson and nephew of Presbyterian clergy. Never wealthy, he only rented the unpretentious Tudor house, a short walk from the campus, where he lived as governor of New Jersey and where he received the telegram announcing he’d won the presidency. “It’s not Mount Vernon,” Maynard notes dryly.
But that hardly seems to matter.
The Wilson bashing has been stoked in part by conservative academics who have trolled through his papers, copies of which occupy hundreds of acid-free boxes in the rare manuscript library nearby. Scholars and graduate students labored over this enormous project for decades (they had to decipher the old-fashioned shorthand Wilson once favored); the 69th and final volume of papers came off the press in 1994.
[Image: 95x122xamerican-history-cover.jpg.pagesp...v-HJv8.jpg]Read More in American History Magazine

Subscribe online and save nearly 40%!!!
Political scientist Ronald Pestritto, whose 2005 book Woodrow Wilson and the Roots of Modern Liberalism drew on that material, used scholarly language but lobbed serious accusations, charging, for instance, that Wilson’s leadership “is not as democratic as it seems, but instead amounts to elite governance under a veneer of democratic rhetoric.” Such ideas soon began cropping up in more popular writing, like Jonah Goldberg’s 2007 book, which describes Wilson as an imperialist, totalitarian warmonger who, from his youth, was “infatuated with political power” and then corrupted by it.
Glenn Beck read Pestritto’s book at the recommendation of political philosopher Robert George, who now holds the chair created for Wilson at Princeton and is among his gentler conservative critics. But there’s nothing gentle about the way Beck has vilified Wilson in his best-selling books, on a syndicated radio broadcast that reaches an estimated 10 million listeners a week, and on a daily Fox News television show that the network recently pulled the plug on. He blasts Wilson as an “S.O.B.,” charges that he “perverted Christianity” and ranks him No. 1 on his “Top Ten Bastards of All Time” lists—ahead of not only both Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt, but also Pontius Pilate, Hitler and Pol Pot.
Even the conservative Weekly Standard scolded Beck last year, declaring, “This is nonsense. Whatever you think of Theodore Roosevelt, he was not Lenin. Woodrow Wilson was not Stalin.” That hasn’t slowed Beck’s assault. He consoles himself, he has said, by looking up from his desk at a treasured gift: a framed front page of a 1924 newspaper headlined, “Woodrow Wilson Is Dead.”
Many presidents’ standings wax and wane over the decades, of course. “I don’t think any statesman can sleep soundly in his grave,” says Robert George. But rarely has a debate about a historic figure’s accomplishments and shortcomings turned so vitriolic. So whence this wave of animosity? It starts with the progressive movement that helped elect Wilson and that also can claim Theodore Roosevelt. “In a nutshell, the argument is that this marked the first era in American history where prominent national leaders were openly critical of the Constitution,” Pestritto explains.
The criticism can sound fairly innocuous: Reformers like Wilson contended that a system of government established in the late 1700s for a smaller, sparsely populated country had become inadequate in a world of industrialization, immigration, international tensions and other developments the founders couldn’t have foreseen. Government therefore had to adapt.
“The Constitution was not meant to hold the government back to the time of horses and wagons,” Wilson wrote in his scholarly tome Constitutional Government in the United States (1908). He deplored the way the branches of government checkmated each other to stall progress—or what he saw as progress—and admired the British parliamentary system as more efficient.
The problem, in the conservative critique, is what results. In George Will’s words: “Concentrate as much power as possible in Washington, concentrate as much Washington power as possible in the executive branch and concentrate enough experts in the executive branch” to administer a much larger government. And it was Wilson, adds Robert George, who made progressivism “a doctrine, not just a sensibility. He’s the guy who laid out the justifications and ideas.”
Perhaps, though, it’s less Wilson’s ideas that trouble his critics than what he managed to do with them, especially in his first term as president. “His greatest domestic achievement was the creation of the Federal Reserve System, and that’s probably enough for Glenn Beck in itself,” says Thomas J. Knock, a historian at Southern Methodist University and another Wilson biographer. But the list goes on: The Federal Trade Commission. The Clayton Antitrust Act. The first downward revision of the tariff and the implementation of the progressive income tax (though the 16th Amendment was actually passed and ratified just before Wilson took office). The first federal law establishing an eight-hour day (for railroad workers). The first federal law restricting child labor (later struck down by the Supreme Court). The appointment of Justice Louis Brandeis, the first Jew to serve on the Supreme Court.
Wilson’s second term was another matter. He couldn’t live up to the campaign slogan “He kept us out of war,” of course, and some supporters never forgave him for America’s immersion in the mechanized horrors of World War I. Nor did he succeed in engineering American participation in his cherished League of Nations, though he—literally—nearly died from the physical stress he experienced trying. But his blazing domestic record includes actions some conservatives condemn to this day.
“If those on the right want to blame him, put him in the pantheon, the Hall of Shame for people who expanded the state and made it more interventionist, especially in the economy, fair enough,” says University of Wisconsin historian John Milton Cooper, author of several Wilson biographies. “He belongs there.”
The thing is, he’s got plenty of company.
Why not turn, for a presidential piñata, to Theodore Roosevelt, who was ramming through progressive legislation before Wilson ever entered politics? In the 1912 election, each vied to portray himself as the greater advocate of strong government. Why not lambaste Franklin Roosevelt, whom Wilson appointed to his first national post, assistant secretary of the navy? Surely FDR’s New Deal proved at least as threatening, to those with a taste for limited government, as Wilson’s New Freedom agenda.
One could argue that talk radio hosts have a penchant for discovering and trumpeting supposed hidden truths, revealing to their listeners what high school textbooks, college curricula and the media (all, in this scenario, controlled by conniving liberals) have concealed. Attacking FDR is way too obvious; everyone knows he steered the nation leftwards. Wilson’s role as the alleged destroyer of the Constitution makes for more piquant programming. Or perhaps Wilson’s academic background, seen as an asset at the time, brands him a member of the Eastern elite, despite his middle-class Southern upbringing. He was the ultimate pointy-headed intellectual; editorial cartoonists delighted in portraying him in a cap and gown.
Or one could theorize, as John Milton Cooper does, that there’s a simpler explanation: Americans just don’t cotton to Woodrow Wilson. That it’s unpatriotic or dangerous to criticize the Constitution strikes Cooper as a nonsensical argument—what are all those amendments for if the founders were so unerring? But he has noticed that among the presidents who top historians’ lists, “sooner or later you get the glow of universal acceptance and acclaim.” To his sorrow, “that has never happened to Wilson.”
Case in point: Theodore Roosevelt. Given the passage of a full century, plus a little selective memory, liberals can applaud the progressive trustbuster and conservatives the rugged Rough Rider. “TR tends to enjoy a certain above-the-battle reputation,” Cooper says. “People just don’t want to go after him.”
Even FDR, hardly beloved by conservatives, got plenty of laudatory press during the 1982 centennial of his birth, Cooper points out. Roosevelt fought the unambiguous Good War, after all, and saw the nation through the Depression; meanwhile, millions of Americans continue to rely on the social safety net he constructed.
But Wilson seems fair game. “He rubs people the wrong way, for some reason,” Thomas Knock concurs. In historic reputations, as in contemporary political polls, personalities matter. Theodore Roosevelt so often looks, in his grinning photographs, like he’s having a ripping good time. Wilson, with his long face and severe pince-nez glasses, looks like he’s headed for a dental appointment. Roosevelt once referred to him, in fact, as resembling “the apothecary’s clerk.”
[Image: 95x122xamerican-history-cover.jpg.pagesp...v-HJv8.jpg]Read More in American History Magazine

Subscribe online and save nearly 40%!!!
The distaste extends to those on the left who would normally be Wilson’s allies and defenders—this was a man once endorsed by legendary labor organizer Mother Jones and civil rights activist W.E.B. Du Bois, no less—primarily for two reasons. First, he held typically unenlightened views on race. Born in Virginia and raised in Georgia, he paid little attention to blacks’ legal or economic plight. As Princeton’s president, he refused to consider admitting black students at a time when Ivy League rivals Columbia and the University of Pennsylvania had begun to accept them.
Later, as a president who gave considerable autonomy to his Cabinet members, many of them fellow Southerners, he acquiesced as they set about segregating the Postal Service, the Treasury Department and the Bureau of Printing and Engraving; during Wilson’s administration the number of black government employees actually declined. He also permitted a gala White House screening of D.W. Griffith’s hateful epic The Birth of a Nation, apparently as a favor to someone he had briefly attended school with; though he later tried to disassociate himself, the incident outraged the protesting NAACP.
Black leaders subsequently declined to support his reelection. “We need scarcely to say that you have grievously disappointed us,” Du Bois wrote.
“By any reasonable standards anyone would apply today, I think it’s fair to say Woodrow Wilson was a racist,” Cooper acknowledges, regretfully.
That other presidents also qualify doesn’t shield Wilson from contemporary scorn. Middletown, Conn.—where Wilson once taught at Wesleyan University—named a public school in his honor in 1931, but in 2004, two high school seniors argued (ultimately unsuccessfully) that the town shouldn’t honor a bigot. “The question I’m asked the most when I talk about Wilson, almost always by some young person in the audience, is ‘What about his racism?’ ” says Barksdale Maynard. “It’s poisoning his reputation.”
Wilson’s reputation also suffers from the Sedition Act and the Espionage Act, laws he supported and signed in his second term, convinced that winning World War I required a crackdown on home-front dissent. Overriding the pleas of onetime supporters, he permitted a variety of transgressions against civil liberties, leading to about 2,000 wartime prosecutions. His postmaster general banned the mailing of a variety of liberal, socialist and radical publications. His Justice Department rounded up and arrested labor organizers. Vigilantes attacked innocent people for the crime of being German-American. The socialist leader Eugene Debs, who’d run against him in the four-way election of 1912, was tried and sentenced to 10 years for making antiwar speeches.
Wilson remained publicly silent about all of it and refused to pardon the aging, ailing Debs, even after the armistice. “Wilson was a typical Puritan,” H.L. Mencken wrote in 1921. “Magnanimity was simply beyond him.”
In a heated 2008 essay that branded Wilson “an intolerant demagogue,” Harper’s publisher John R. McArthur concluded, “The great proponent of democracy engaged in the most anti-democratic domestic crusade in American history.” A century earlier, Harper’s Weekly had helped propel Wilson into politics; now, disdain for Wilson may be the sole issue on which its publisher agrees with Glenn Beck.
In a way, this ongoing tussle over history’s verdict is old news for Wilson. Historians still credit him with presiding over America’s entrance onto the international stage, and his stock was high when the Allies won the war. But the peace talks in Paris in 1919 turned fractious and punitive, and afterwards Wilson was unable to coax or pummel a Republican-controlled Senate into approving the Treaty of Versailles and, with it, American membership in the League of Nations. A barnstorming cross-country speaking tour, an attempt to sell the Senate on the treaty by selling the public, possibly brought on the stroke that crippled and eventually killed him, and left the country rudderless for the crucial 15 months remaining in his term. Wilson departed the White House a diminished and discredited leader.
Yet his star rose again during World War II, by which time an international organization that could have defused conflicts didn’t sound like such a terrible idea. Journalists and biographers took renewed interest, and Hollywood producer Darryl F. Zanuck spent a then unprecedented $5 million to film a Technicolor extravaganza simply titled Wilson, portraying him as a man ahead of his time. Released in 1944, it was nominated for 10 Academy Awards.
In another 20 years, therefore, bloggers and editorialists may be quoting admiringly from Wilson’s weighty Constitutional Government in American Politics and rattling on about the ambitious Fourteen Points peace plan he laid out for Congress at the end of World War I.
What if Wilson had had access to some of the political artillery his successors have wielded? He was a spellbinding orator, and if he’d been able to address the nation using the newfangled medium called radio, he might have been able to cajole America into League membership. At least he might have avoided the exhausting trek by train that sapped him and likely brought on his stroke. But his first and only radio talk, marking the fifth anniversary of the World War I armistice, came in 1923, after he’d left office.
His admirers like to kick around these counterfactual versions of history. What if the stroke had killed him quickly? “He would have been a martyr instead of an ineffectual political ghost, and that might have carried America into the League,” Knock conjectures.
For that matter, what if Wilson had lost the 1916 election, instead of barely squeaking back into office? His first-term accomplishments untarnished by having led the country into war and then into an ugly peace, and by his long, slow fade, he might now be recalled with greater warmth.
Well, who knows? But as the current flap raises his profile again, it appears to have produced certain beneficiaries. Every past president, after all, generates a small industry. Once Beck started mentioning Ronald Pestritto’s book, for instance, “paperback sales really shot through the roof,” at least by academic standards, the pleased author says. At the Woodrow Wilson Presidential Library and Museum in Staunton, Va., where Wilson was born in a handsome brick house on a hill, visitorship has grown 12 percent in the past year.
[Image: 95x122xamerican-history-cover.jpg.pagesp...v-HJv8.jpg]Read More in American History Magazine

Subscribe online and save nearly 40%!!!
In Washington, D.C., the Woodrow Wilson House, the Georgian Revival home where Wilson lived after leaving office and where he died, is prospering, too. “We’ve been doing very well for the last few years,” says its director.
“You know, no controversy is entirely bad.”
Paula Span, a former Washington Post reporter, teaches at the Columbia University School of Journalism and blogs for the New York Times.


http://www.historynet.com/woodrow-wilson 

Here's the  link if you want it.
#80
(06-11-2015, 05:38 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: As far as whether Germany was going to win the war..... That war was obviously going to end in a stalemate and everyone would have gone home with relative ability to save face....  However wilson wanted the allies to win a lopsided victory which germany lost loads of their lands and money.   Which sent the people looking for someone who wanted to promotw german values, make germany the pinnacle the of the world.   This gave way to the Nazi's rhetoric.... German jobs for Germans....     Wilson's mistake here is exactly why we don't leave a country in ruins after a war any longer.  

We are still paying for the mistakes of Wilson's policies giving birth to the nazi's ... We still fight then today.

First France and Britain were the ones that wanted harsh war consequences on Germany not Wilson.  "He (Wilson) is the only serious statesman here," wrote one observer. "He is a titan struggling with forces too great even for him." After the treaty was signed, it was far less idealistic than what Wilson had argued for.


And your assessment of Hitlers rise to power is at best simplistic at worst something Beck would spout on about.  That part of History is way more complex, especially since Hitler and the Nazi party almost never came to be.  A lot of conservative libertarian hyperbole at it's finest here.





Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)