Obama's Secret Struggle to Retaliate against Putin

[*michaelsean*]

(06-26-2017, 03:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: There are multiple places in the bible where we are told to pay our taxes.

https://www.gotquestions.org/taxes-Bible.html

Including Jesus.

But, again, you're an outlier so enjoy.  This has nothing to do with Russia and Trump.

And multiple places in the Bible where it says all things are God.  The fact that you don't know these interpretations shows you really didn't ever bother to look. Even superficially at why Jesus did all of this simply to say yes. Do you think Jesus would actually advocate that paying tax to a brutal dictator was morally or ethically required? Remember they aren't talking tax in general, but specific tax to Rome.

Edit:Oh and rest assured, I pay all my taxes. I'm not looking for an out, I just like to look at what the true meaning is, and Jesus never gave instruction one way or the other. He sidestepped a trap and showed them to be blasphemous idolators. (Were you even aware of that? Did you know what the inscription on the coin said?)

[GMDino]

(06-26-2017, 04:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: And multiple places in the Bible where it says all things are God.  The fact that you don't know these interpretations shows you really didn't ever bother to look.  Even superficially at why Jesus did all of this simply to say yes.  Do you think Jesus would actually advocate that paying tax to a brutal dictator was morally or ethically required?  Remember they aren't talking tax in general, but specific tax to Rome.

Yes, yes I do think Jesus would tell me to pay taxes to a government that I disagreed with if that was the law. Because he did. And others in the bible did too,

(06-26-2017, 04:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Edit:Oh and rest assured, I pay all my taxes. I'm not looking for an out, I just like to look at what the true meaning is, and Jesus never gave instruction one way or the other. He sidestepped a trap and showed them to be blasphemous idolators. (Were you even aware of that?  Did you know what the inscription on the coin said?)

Never doubted you paid them or were using this an excuse not to. You can look at the rest of the message. I'm simply pointing out that Jesus, in his own words, agreed that you should pay the tax.

Perhaps a new thread should be started.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-26-2017, 04:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yes, yes I do think Jesus would tell me to pay taxes to a government that I disagreed with if that was the law.  Because he did.  And others in the bible did too,


Never doubted you paid them or were using this an excuse not to.  You can look at the rest of the message.  I'm simply pointing out that Jesus, in his own words, agreed that you should pay the tax.

Perhaps a new thread should be started.

Nah I've said my peace. Or is it piece? Never did know.

[Dill]

(06-26-2017, 03:05 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Sure.  When it came time for Muhammad to take the hit for his followers he found some followers to feed a line of bull about sex party's and rivers of wine so they could die and he didn't have to fight.  

The battle of Uhud, where Muhammad was wounded? Why was that time for him to "take a hit for his followers"?

Since no Muslim would agree with your source, what can you tell me about it, Lucie? This is a guy who gets kicked off Youtube for hate speech, right?

One more thing. The Hadith cited in your video are not supposed to describe simply the order of battle at Uhud. Under what circumstances could one Muslim fight and die and then the next in single file? The point of the narrative is to emphasize loyalty and willingness to sacrifice. Hence also the proportioned numbers. You seem to agree, though, that Muhammad led Muslims in to battle, more than once, and often outnumbered. Hard to square that with "cowardice." Makes sense, though, if you are an Alpha.

[Dill]

(06-26-2017, 03:34 PM)michaelsean Wrote: So why not a simple yes? He never defines what is Caesar's.  He is leaving that up to them.  And you.  There is no command either way.
We can also get into the coin itself that declares Tiberius to be divine so possessing the coin would be blasphemous.  Notice who has one and who does not.  

Michael, he asks whose image is on the Denarius. Turns out to be Caesar's. Not Jesus' or God's.

Then he says "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." You don't think he was talking about salad do you? Virtually all Christian interpretation from the apostles to now assume he is saying the coin is Caesar's, so give it--the coin--back to him. Definitely a command.

I agree he is forcing people to think of a distinction between material and spiritual world. But on every Christian interpretation and denomination I am familiar with, Jesus' mission was not to "leave it up to them" whenever it came to understanding what God wanted.

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2011/04/tax-day-giving-back-to-caesar/

I am not a Christian, but I think Jesus answer is very good, far better than a yes or no. Remember the question is a trap, designed to create a dilemma. Jesus is damned if he says no, because that is sedition and the Herodians could report him to the Romans, and damned if he says yes, because then the Pharisees can say--look he cannot be a prophet if he says submit to Rome. The coin is clearly part of Caesar's world. His kingdom, as he tells Pilate, is not "of this world."



PS sorry, I posted this before reading your response above.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-26-2017, 05:27 PM)Dill Wrote: Michael, he asks whose image is on the Denarius. Turns out to be Caesar's. Not Jesus' or God's.

Then he says "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." You don't think he was talking about salad do you? Virtually all Christian interpretation from the apostles to now assume he is saying the coin is Caesar's, so give it back to him.

I agree he is forcing people to think of a distinction between material and spiritual world. But on every Christian interpretation and denomination I am familiar with, Jesus' mission was not to "leave it up to them" whenever it came to understanding what God wanted.

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2011/04/tax-day-giving-back-to-caesar/

I am not a Christian, but I think Jesus answer is very good, far better than a yes or no. Remember the question is a trap, designed to create a dilemma. Jesus is damned if he says no, because that is sedition and he could be reported to the Romans, and damned if he says yes, because then the Pharisees can say--look he cannot be a prophet if he says submit to Rome.

What is the inscription on the coin?  It claims Tiberius divine.  There is also his image with the inscription.  Blasphemous to a Jew.  He's sidestepping the trap with a non-answer.  Jesus would never advocate the moral necessity of paying money to a brutal dictator. In no way would Jesus ever say that is what God wanted which is what is implied when you say He was declaring that they should pay the taxes to the Romans. He isn't speaking taxes in general, they pay taxes already, but rather specific taxes to Romans.  

In short I am saying this was not a declaration about paying taxes or not paying taxes.  It was an evasion to a question that turned the pharisees into idolators and blasphemers.  They had the coin, which would have been considered blasphemous.  Jesus did not. That's why he asked them the questions.

 

[Dill]

(06-26-2017, 06:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What is the inscription on the coin?  It claims Tiberius divine.  There is also his image with the inscription.  Blasphemous to a Jew.  He's sidestepping the trap with a non-answer.  Jesus would never advocate the moral necessity of paying money to a brutal dictator. In no way would Jesus ever say that is what God wanted which is what is implied when you say He was declaring that they should pay the taxes to the Romans. He isn't speaking taxes in general, they pay taxes already, but rather specific taxes to Romans. He is throwing a specific charge back on the Pharisees. 

In short I am saying this was not a declaration about paying taxes or not paying taxes.  It was an evasion to a question that turned the pharisees into idolators and blasphemers.  They had the coin, which would have been considered blasphemous.  Jesus did not.  That's why he asked them the questions.

A good answer, Michael.  I had not considered the "blasphemous" angle, especially leveled at legalistic Pharisees, but I agree it is there. The reference to the image has a deeper sense then. And Jesus is not just telling people to pay taxes. He is throwing a specific charge back on the Pharisees.

You are Catholic, or were raised one, right? You have taught me something, though I still have some questions--for the theologians; I'm sure you are getting tired of this digression (e.g., blasphemous images would have been on other coins for other taxes as well, for other taxes; aslo, the Jews, alone in the empire, had a dispensation allowing them to sidestep the emperor worship; did that enable them to pay the census tax without blasphemy?).

http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/22
* [22:21] Caesar’s: the emperor Tiberius (A.D. 14–37). Repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar: those who willingly use the coin that is Caesar’s should repay him in kind. The answer avoids taking sides in the question of the lawfulness of the tax. To God what belongs to God: Jesus raises the debate to a new level. Those who have hypocritically asked about tax in respect to its relation to the law of God should be concerned rather with repaying God with the good deeds that are his due; cf. Mt 21:41, 43.

PS I am still not sure one can say Jesus avoids taking sides, when he makes it clear that people holding the coins and paying the taxes are thereby violating their own laws.

[GMDino]

[Dill]

(06-26-2017, 06:55 PM)GMDino Wrote:

Thanks for clearing that up. My world has been rockin' since I learned that Trump's "better hope there's no tapes" tweet forced Comey into telling the truth at his Senate hearing.

No wait . . . I guess there were some lies. . . . but some truths too. Well played Donald. It all makes sense now.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-26-2017, 05:04 PM)Dill Wrote: The battle of Uhud, where Muhammad was wounded? Why was that time for him to "take a hit for his followers"?

Since no Muslim would agree with your source, what can you tell me about it, Lucie? This is a guy who gets kicked off Youtube for hate speech, right?

One more thing. The Hadith cited in your video are not supposed to describe simply the order of battle at Uhud. Under what circumstances could one Muslim fight and die and then the next in single file? The point of the narrative is to emphasize loyalty and willingness to sacrifice. Hence also the proportioned numbers. You seem to agree, though, that Muhammad led Muslims in to battle, more than once, and often outnumbered. Hard to square that with "cowardice." Makes sense, though, if you are an Alpha.

He is a coward for several reasons. If you want to be under the opinion he was such a great guy then you obviously have no issue with his raping of children. Last I checked the alpha doesn't need to chase children for lovers..... he just gets the best female adult.

[*michaelsean*]

Yes raised a Catholic. If asked I'll say I'm Catholic, but I'm not by any definition. I've just found a lot more that makes sense. I'll tell you one of the first books I read,and I don't even know if it's available anymore is The Gospel According to Jesus of Nazareth. It is purported to be Jesus telling His story from childhood on to a woman. The cool thing is you don't have to believe that or even believe in God if Jesus and His teachings interest you. He explains what He said and what He meant unlike anything you've heard of Jesus before. It's just a new look. (I don't recall this particular topic being there but it's been a while) Btw His missing years were indeeed in India. Walked the whole way with a caravan. He felt no pain during the torture and crucifixion. We are all the children of God just like Him. He's just further along. Ok ramble over.

I don't know what they would pay their tax with. I think it's highly unlikely that most of the people Jesus preached to saw these coins very often. I would think they would have coppers and bits of silver.

And I don't think Jesus is going to flatly say for the people to not pay their taxes and risk the consequences. My honest opinion is He's not really all that concerned with taxes or coins or even images except that he throws their own laws in their faces. His whole mission is about the individual. People throughout history will find themselves born into myriad situations they can't control, but there are eternal truths, and I can promise they aren't found in canon law. Jesus called it salvation, I'll call it realization. Ok I just hijacked the hijack. My apologies to everyone. Back to alpha/beta.

[Vlad]

(06-26-2017, 06:55 PM)GMDino Wrote:

That is exactly right. Obama did nothing until after the election by expelling Russian diplomats which still amounts to nothing, and the idea that Trump colluded with the Russians is a hoax.

Watch... Now were gonna see some democrats be upset with Obama because Russians stole the election and Obama's didn't do nothing about it except to tell Putin to "cut it out".
"Brave struggle"?  Amazing how anyone believes that shit.

[GMDino]

(06-26-2017, 07:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: He is a coward for several reasons.   If you want to be under the opinion he was such a great guy then you obviously have no issue with his raping of children.  Last I checked the alpha doesn't need to chase children for lovers.....  he just gets the best female adult.

Now we're on to child rape?

Jumping Jebus on a pogo stick...this is about Russia.

[GMDino]

(06-26-2017, 09:32 PM)Vlad Wrote: That is exactly right. Obama did nothing until after the election by expelling Russian diplomats which still amounts to nothing, and the idea that Trump colluded with the Russians is a hoax.

Watch... Now were gonna see some democrats be upset with Obama because Russians stole the election and Obama's didn't do nothing about it except to tell Putin to "cut it out".
"Brave struggle"?  Amazing how anyone believes that shit.

Oh...close!

Trump insisted that the Russian interference was fake news...until he could shift blame.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-26-2017, 10:17 PM)GMDino Wrote: Now we're on to child rape?

Jumping Jebus on a pogo stick...this is about Russia.

When discussing Muhammad you have to talk child rape. Because he was a pedophile rapist.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-26-2017, 09:32 PM)Vlad Wrote: That is exactly right. Obama did nothing until after the election by expelling Russian diplomats which still amounts to nothing, and the idea that Trump colluded with the Russians is a hoax.

Watch... Now were gonna see some democrats be upset with Obama because Russians stole the election and Obama's didn't do nothing about it except to tell Putin to "cut it out".
"Brave struggle"?  Amazing how anyone believes that shit.

All any of this Russia stuff caused is raising the cost of flights to and connecting via Moscow.

[GMDino]

(06-26-2017, 11:15 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: When discussing Muhammad you have to talk child rape.  Because he was a pedophile rapist.

This has zero to do with Russia and Trump and Obama except you want to "prove" that someone is an alpha and someone is a beta in your mind based on random (and sometime contradictory) facts and basis's.

In addition we're talking about two people have not even have really existed?

Meanwhile the POTUS has denied that there was any attempt to interfere in the election and if there was Russia may not have been involved.  Until he could shift blame to the ex-POTUS.

Get on the topic.

[GMDino]

(06-26-2017, 11:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: All any of this Russia stuff caused is raising the cost of flights to and connecting via Moscow.

Gonna be harder to get a bride now.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-26-2017, 09:32 PM)Vlad Wrote: That is exactly right. Obama did nothing until after the election by expelling Russian diplomats which still amounts to nothing, and the idea that Trump colluded with the Russians is a hoax.

Watch... Now were gonna see some democrats be upset with Obama because Russians stole the election and Obama's didn't do nothing about it except to tell Putin to "cut it out".
"Brave struggle"?  Amazing how anyone believes that shit.

You can take collusion completely off the table. Trump has denied Russia was involved with computer hacking. Claimed no one knows despite the claims of our own intelligence agencies.

Then Trump claimed Obama didn't do anything about Russian hacking despite Trump's own denials of Russian hacking.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-26-2017, 11:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You can take collusion completely off the table. Trump has denied Russia was involved with computer hacking. Claimed no one knows despite the claims of our own intelligence agencies.

Then Trump claimed Obama didn't do anything about Russian hacking despite Trump's own denials of Russian hacking.

Isn't trump's opinion on the hacks irrelevant? When he became president he at least signed an EO giving the military more power in all this matter.

Obviously obama fell asleep at the wheel and thought it was in the bag. But the DNC is the one to really blame in all of this stuff. Lack of security then the lack of allowing the FBI to investigate. Obviously they were hiding something especially now since their top two candidates are under FBI investigation.