On the cost of Education

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm talking about higher education and the cost that graduates accumulate getting an education and yes, it is expensive and there needs to be some way to help.

Would a program like this work?

If you keep a 3.75 to 4.0 GPA, your college is paid for you. From books to fees to tuition to room and board. As long as you keep the GPA, you get a free ride.
From a 3.5 to 3.74 GPA, you get a bill at the end of your education for 20% of all the costs.
From a 3.25 to 3.49 GPA, you get a bill at the end of your education for 40% of all costs.
From a 3.0 to 3.24 GPA, you get a bill at the end of your education for 60% of all costs.
From a 2.75 to 2.99 GPA, you get a bill at the end of your education for 80% of all costs.
Anything under 2.75 GPA, you must pay your total bill. As with the other teirs except for the free ride part this is where your Grants, Loans and Scholorships will kick in.

First to cover parts of your bill will be the Scholorships
Second to cover parts of your bill will be the Grants
Third to cover parts of your bill will be the loans

It can also work per Term as well where your GPA may go up and down depending on how strong or weak you are in certain classes.

Just brainstorming here and something along these lines might get both sides on board.

[Belsnickel]

Not keen on this. If someone is working on a B.S. in Kinesiology or some other bull shit then I'm not keen on their schooling being paid for. Programs to send more people to college does nothing but exacerbates an already growing problem of people with worthless four year degrees. And I say this as someone who would have job security forever with a program like you just proposed.

[*bfine32*]

I applaud the proactive approach, but of course some immediate issues come to mind:

As Matt said we'd probably see an influx of History, Political Science, and Criminal Justice Majors where STEM would be ignored.

How long would it take before a population felt cheated because their Primary Education did not prepare them to excel.

(Personal Interest) Folks now can get a free-ride or very close by simply agreeing to give 4-years back to their country; many as Reservists or National Guardsmen. This would be rendered almost a useless route, if "everybody" went for free.

Things I would look at:

Tax breaks for parents in relationship to their kids grades in Public Schools

A tracking system of sorts that would reward teachers on how their ex-students preformed academically at the next level.

Grants given for STEM Majors

Reduced tuition for State Public Universities.

[Mike M (the other one)]

I'd rather them use it for free if they are going into a STEM field or a field of high demand. Liberal Arts Degree? Nope, you pay for that.

[Au165]

I think school should base costs based on the degree you wish to obtain. All degrees are not created equally and I think most know that, so why not set prices based on the expected long term earning potential. If someone is in a pre med program they pay more than someone in a performing arts program. In the first two years charge them a flat rate, then after you declare a major the price changes based on major. You could even use this model to steer people to under staffed positions. The government could offer subsidies to those who do certain majors making their schooling cheaper than it would be for other majors.

The biggest issue isn't the cost across the board, it is the cost in relation to the earning potential of many when they leave college.

[McC]

The first question that has to be asked of any tuition reduction is --who is paying for it? Somebody still has to pay. Colleges won't take the hit or at least, not alone. And tuition never goes down and neither does room and board or books.

Also, since this only ever happens with government involvement, is it just gov't sponsored or is it gov't run?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2016, 04:04 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I'd rather them use it for free if they are going into a STEM field or a field of high demand. Liberal Arts Degree? Nope, you pay for that.

You mean the type of degree someone might get at one of the military service academies?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/04/26/service-academies-where-the-u-s-military-meets-liberal-arts/

What degree do you have which is superior to a liberal arts degree?

[Rotobeast]

(07-26-2016, 04:06 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think school should base costs based on the degree you wish to obtain. All degrees are not created equally and I think most know that, so why not set prices based on the expected long term earning potential. If someone is in a pre med program they pay more than someone in a performing arts program. In the first two years charge them a flat rate, then after you declare a major the price changes based on major. You could even use this model to steer people to under staffed positions. The government could offer subsidies to those who do certain majors making their schooling cheaper than it would be for other majors.

The biggest issue isn't the cost across the board, it is the cost in relation to the earning potential of many when they leave college.

This was always my thought, when proposing the OP's.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[JustWinBaby]

The schools already engage in massive wealth transfer themselves.

Only the stupid and/or well-off pay $40k+ a year. Most schools, ones that are decent at all, have significant grants and scholarships for everyone else.

And if that's not enough, you can get student loans. This idea that people don't have the money to go to college is 100% BS. In fact, easy money and "affordable loans" have a ton to do with skyrocketing tuition.

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2016, 04:06 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think school should base costs based on the degree you wish to obtain. All degrees are not created equally and I think most know that, so why not set prices based on the expected long term earning potential. If someone is in a pre med program they pay more than someone in a performing arts program. In the first two years charge them a flat rate, then after you declare a major the price changes based on major. You could even use this model to steer people to under staffed positions. The government could offer subsidies to those who do certain majors making their schooling cheaper than it would be for other majors.

The biggest issue isn't the cost across the board, it is the cost in relation to the earning potential of many when they leave college.

Schools are doing this already. However, the issue is that this differential tuition is typically higher for those fields with higher earning potential. The reason is that I costs more to attract professors from those fields. We have tho issue with nursing and business.

[Benton]

(07-26-2016, 03:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not keen on this. If someone is working on a B.S. in Kinesiology or some other bull shit then I'm not keen on their schooling being paid for. Programs to send more people to college does nothing but exacerbates an already growing problem of people with worthless four year degrees. And I say this as someone who would have job security forever with a program like you just proposed.

Agreed.

To a degree we already do it, but I think we should be helping students in areas of need (engineers, mathematicians, chemists, etc) more than people looking for a degree in something easy just to have a degree. And I say that as someone who went to school for fine arts (which is basically just an easy degree for some).

[JustWinBaby]

(07-26-2016, 05:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Schools are doing this already. However, the issue is that this differential tuition is typically higher for those fields with higher earning potential. The reason is that I costs more to attract professors from those fields. We have tho issue with nursing and business.

And the actual % of tuition (never mind room & board) going to those professors is still small.

Growth in administrative services, to expand student services (like "safe places"), and things like luxury dorms and lazy rivers.  That all has a lot to do with the explosion in tuition costs....made possible by, again, easy money.

If you do the math, a class of 30 people should each pay about $700 per class to support a total salary & benefits for a professor in the neighborhood of $240k (before any other state/taxpayer support).  For business classes, that's most non-Execs will make in the private sector.   But practically speaking, that's only for advanced classes and could cut that in half for lower-level classes.

5 classes a semester would mean you should pay about $5000 per year in tuition, for you teachers.  Then of course you have books and food, and a facilities (including room) and administration charge.

Now if you want to involved taxpayer support, look at that facilities and administration charge.  It is necessary, but not really mission critical to the quality of learning experience.  That was as a taxpayer I have a say in how much "free" education I'm supporting, as opposed to handing out blank checks for rock climbing walls.

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2016, 06:30 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: And the actual % of tuition (never mind room & board) going to those professors is still small.

Growth in administrative services, to expand student services (like "safe places"), and things like luxury dorms and lazy rivers.  That all has a lot to do with the explosion in tuition costs....made possible by, again, easy money.

If you do the math, a class of 30 people should each pay about $700 per class to support a total salary & benefits for a professor in the neighborhood of $240k (before any other state/taxpayer support).  For business classes, that's most non-Execs will make in the private sector.   But practically speaking, that's only for advanced classes and could cut that in half for lower-level classes.

5 classes a semester would mean you should pay about $5000 per year in tuition, for you teachers.  Then of course you have books and food, and a facilities (including room) and administration charge.

Now if you want to involved taxpayer support, look at that facilities and administration charge.  It is necessary, but not really mission critical to the quality of learning experience.  That was as a taxpayer I have a say in how much "free" education I'm supporting, as opposed to handing out blank checks for rock climbing walls.

Yes and no. Yes, a small % goes to salaries and a lot goes to administrative costs, however tuition funds can only be used (at least in public schools in Virginia, and likely most others around the country) for costs associated directly with education. The fund for the business of education is provided in part from tuition and in part from the state government. Other fees pay for student activities, housing, meals, athletics, and other auxiliary services. These funds cannot use tuition money and they cannot be allocated state funds.

Now, these fees have increased and some schools (admittedly we are one of these) like to wrap some of these auxiliary fees in with tuition to essentially hide them, but we do have to provide a breakdown of this on our website in several places to show where this money goes.

Fund accounting is fun!

[JustWinBaby]

(07-26-2016, 08:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The fund for the business of education is provided in part from tuition and in part from the state government. Other fees pay for student activities, housing, meals, athletics, and other auxiliary services. These funds cannot use tuition money and they cannot be allocated state funds.

Sure, but the student can't pick-and-choose which services they pay for.  Student loans are available for the total cost of attendance, save maybe federal subsidy loans  but now you're just talking fungible money.

And you're explanation doesn't really explain how tuition growth has been averaging like triple inflation.  I don't think that money is going to outrageous salaries, so where does it go?  It goes to administrative costs, which if the accounting is anything like I see in business there are lots of loopholes to exploit.

Because, to me, this comes down to college being big business.  And so colleges are providing non-educational related things to compete to attract the best students.  That costs money, and must ultimately be passed on to the students in cost of attendance.  Students are demanding these things (although that's not entirely clear, but colleges definitely perceive that), and thanks to easy money are relatively price insensitive to those costs....at least until they graduate and the bills start coming due.

When banks enable homeowners to take financially irresponsible loans, the answer is punish the banks.  When colleges do the same damn thing to students, the answer is punish the taxpayer?!?

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2016, 08:35 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Sure, but the student can't pick-and-choose which services they pay for.  Student loans are available for the total cost of attendance, save maybe federal subsidy loans  but now you're just talking fungible money.

And you're explanation doesn't really explain how tuition growth has been averaging like triple inflation.  I don't think that money is going to outrageous salaries, so where does it go?  It goes to administrative costs, which if the accounting is anything like I see in business there are lots of loopholes to exploit.

Because, to me, this comes down to college being big business.  And so colleges are providing non-educational related things to compete to attract the best students.  That costs money, and must ultimately be passed on to the students in cost of attendance.  Students are demanding these things (although that's not entirely clear, but colleges definitely perceive that), and thanks to easy money are relatively price insensitive to those costs....at least until they graduate and the bills start coming due.

When banks enable homeowners to take financially irresponsible loans, the answer is punish the banks.  When colleges do the same damn thing to students, the answer is punish the taxpayer?!?

In all seriousness, I will try to look into this more at work. Because I have access to more in depth information than most I can, if I remember to, try to provide a breakdown of where these increases have actually been coming from. Whether tuition or the other fees, and I will see if I can find anything budget wise on the tuition increases. The issue is what I can share from online sources ans what I have in spreadsheets in different.

[Beaker]

(07-26-2016, 04:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: A tracking system of sorts that would reward teachers on how their ex-students preformed academically at the next level.

Already kind of do this with the standardized tests. Not at the next level, but at the next grade or testing age. For example the kids test scores for 8th grade math are compared to their test scores for 7th grade math. The 8th grade teats are supposed to show growth/improvement from their 7th grade scores. They are proposing that 50% of teacher evaluation scores are composed of this growth index, with the other 50% consisting of administrative performance evaluation of teaching. They are also proposing that teacher pay be tied to these growth scores. Mind you, I am only speaking for Ohio methods, not US methods.

[Belsnickel]

Okay, so here is some fun stuff. Now, it should be noted that out of the public universities in Virginia, JMU is one of the least expensive to attend. So these numbers are low, but because the school follows some of the same trends you will see the same sort of increases around the country with regard to where these increases are coming from.


This is a history of the tuition, room, and board from the 2006-2007 school year to present. This allows you to see the tuition increases, as well as the room, board, and auxiliary fee increases. The room rent and board (meals) are their own auxiliary funds that are sustained by those charges and other fees they charge directly (charges for damages in housing, revenue other than meal plans for food).

This is the pie chart used to show how the Education & General funds (tuition and state money) are allocated. I will see if I can find something that breaks it down a little more:


And this is the chart for the auxiliary fee break down:


It is, of course, interesting that they have student activity listed in the comprehensive aux fee, but there is also the specific student activity fee. Of course, the $48 fee is only charges to full-time students, so that may be the difference because there are certain things only FT students have access to, and that may account for the difference. Student activities would be money going to clubs, the recreation center, things like that. Anyway, here is the budget breakdown:


I'm not going to spend the time to go to prior budgets and make comparisons. I can tell you, though, that the percentages of revenue sources and the expenditures has remained fairly stagnant. The only real change is a consistently decreasing percentage of revenue coming from the general fund, which is what the General Assembly allocates to us.

And, in case anyone is wondering about me providing this information, as a public university all of this is public record. All but the first image are actually pulled directly from our website. The first one is me condensing information taken from multiple files that can be obtained from our website.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(07-26-2016, 04:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I applaud the proactive approach, but of course some immediate issues come to mind:

As Matt said we'd probably see an influx of History, Political Science, and Criminal Justice Majors where STEM would be ignored.

How long would it take before a population felt cheated because their Primary Education did not prepare them to excel.

(Personal Interest) Folks now can get a free-ride or very close by simply agreeing to give 4-years back to their country; many as Reservists or National Guardsmen. This would be rendered almost a useless route, if "everybody" went for free.

Things I would look at:

Tax breaks for parents in relationship to their kids grades in Public Schools

A tracking system of sorts that would reward teachers on how their ex-students preformed academically at the next level.

Grants given for STEM Majors

Reduced tuition for State Public Universities.

Nothing I really disagree with your post.  Just wondering if there is some other sort of public service or government service that would qualify someone for college tuition?   I ask because (as some here may know) my son is diabetic and will never qualify for the military.  (On a more Personal level), he's devastated by that.  Most of the males (and one female) in my family were in the military.  Wish there were other options for him, he's a smart and capable kid, he just has that one issue.

Edit:  I really like the idea of public service as payment of education.  I just think we need to rethink the notion that the military is the only route.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(07-27-2016, 11:46 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Nothing I really disagree with your post.  Just wondering if there is some other sort of public service or government service that would qualify someone for college tuition?   I ask because (as some here may know) my son is diabetic and will never qualify for the military.  (On a more Personal level), he's devastated by that.  Most of the males (and one female) in my family were in the military.  Wish there were other options for him, he's a smart and capable kid, he just has that one issue.

Edit:  I really like the idea of public service as payment of education.  I just think we need to rethink the notion that the military is the only route.

The way I did it,

I got sick of the job I was working so when I got home from work, I hopped on the Internet and filled out the FAFSA form online. After about 3 months, I recieved a letter in the mail telling me what I needed to do next and it listed the grants, loans and scholarships I qualified for.

I never expected it to be so easy and thought it rather strange. I just filled out that form and BAM! I was in school.

[Belsnickel]

(07-27-2016, 11:46 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Nothing I really disagree with your post.  Just wondering if there is some other sort of public service or government service that would qualify someone for college tuition?   I ask because (as some here may know) my son is diabetic and will never qualify for the military.  (On a more Personal level), he's devastated by that.  Most of the males (and one female) in my family were in the military.  Wish there were other options for him, he's a smart and capable kid, he just has that one issue.

Well, there are some others that provide assistance currently. I definitely think, though, that we should do more for other civil servants as well. To be frank about it, the military is currently in the works of finding every possible excuse they can muster to not pay for things. It's pretty horrendous. When they do pay, it can take them a year or more to fulfill obligations. I currently have several AR accounts for ROTC and GI Bill students over a year old.