One Week of Trump

[Bengalzona]

So, Donald Trump has been President for a week. I'm interested in getting peoples' observations.

Here are some of mine, for anyone interested:
1) The world didn't end - Since the Anti-Christ hasn't shown up (yet) and there was no "nucyuhlar war of mass destruction" with the Russians, we may be okay.
2) Nothing really unexpected - There were a lot of executive orders, to be sure. But this is all stuff Trump had said he was going to do anyway. None of them were really that shocking, IMO. I'm not saying that I think they are good. Most of them I don't agree with. But he said he was going to do this and he did.
3) I'm starting to get Trump a bit - He fancies himself as the Great Negotiator, and maybe he is. If you want something from him, you have to negotiate and offer him something. And he views everything as negotiable. The Republicans in the House and Senate were the first to get this. Deals were made before he won the nomination. This is why they all get along so well right now. This "paying for the Wall" business with Mexico is negotiation for re-doing NAFTA, mark my words. Same with the China stuff.
4) Trump listens to "Mad Dog" - He backed off the waterboarding issue when Sec. of Defense Mattis informed him it doesn't work. This is reassuring.

[xxlt]

Well, I wish I could agree. But IMHO he is under skilled and over matched for the job. He took weekend one off and hasn't killed the country yet and that is your sign of hope? Give him time, he will have you panicked too.

[*bfine32*]

The Jungle Noise PnR message board set a new world record for threads started about the same person

I have a promotion on hold and have two vacancies I cannot hire for

I've seen how petty folks can truly be when they don't get what they want

If he doesn't fulfill a campaign promise it's a bad thing; if he fulfills a campaign promise it's a bad thing

Folks have become what they have spent the last 8 years hating on both sides.

[GMDino]

(01-27-2017, 09:24 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: So, Donald Trump has been President for a week. I'm interested in getting peoples' observations.

Here are some of mine, for anyone interested:
1) The world didn't end - Since the Anti-Christ hasn't shown up (yet) and there was no "nucyuhlar war of mass destruction" with the Russians, we may be okay.
2) Nothing really unexpected - There were a lot of executive orders, to be sure. But this is all stuff Trump had said he was going to do anyway. None of them were really that shocking, IMO. I'm not saying that I think they are good. Most of them I don't agree with. But he said he was going to do this and he did.
3) I'm starting to get Trump a bit - He fancies himself as the Great Negotiator, and maybe he is. If you want something from him, you have to negotiate and offer him something. And he views everything as negotiable. The Republicans in the House and Senate were the first to get this. Deals were made before he won the nomination. This is why they all get along so well right now. This "paying for the Wall" business with Mexico is negotiation for re-doing NAFTA, mark my words. Same with the China stuff.
4) Trump listens to "Mad Dog" - He backed off the waterboarding issue when Sec. of Defense Mattis informed him it doesn't work. This is reassuring.

Reminded me of something:

http://www.newshounds.us/today_completes_seven_years_since_sean_hannity_promised_to_undergo_waterboarding_for_charity_042116

Quote:Today Completes Seven Years Since Sean Hannity Promised To Undergo Waterboarding For Charity
POSTED BY ELLEN -5216.20PC ON APRIL 21, 2016 · FLAG

 
image: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/newshounds/pages/7528/attachments/original/1461294896/Hannity_waterboard_promise.png?1461294896

On April 22, 2009, Sean Hannity offered to undergo waterboarding for charity as proof that it's not torture. Yet Hanniity, who loves the thought of waterboarding others, has yet to fulfill that pledge.

On April 22, 2009, Hannity was challenged about his "fascist mentality" by actor Charles Grodin and his insistence that waterboarding is just dunking.

Quote:GRODIN: Would you consent to be waterboarded? We can waterboard you?
HANNITY: Sure.
GRODIN: Are you busy on Sunday?
HANNITY: I’ll do it for charity. I’ll let you do it. I’ll do it for the troops’ families.

Keith Olbermann responded by offering $1,000 for every second Hannity lasted. "We'll see if he's anything but a gasbag," Olbermann said. 

Well, after seven years, I think we can definitively say he's a gasbag.

You can email Hannity via his website or tweet him @SeanHannity and let him know that he may want to forget his promise to prove waterboarding is not torture but we won’t!

Watch the video below, from our friends at Crooks and Liars, showing Hannity’s promise to undergo waterboarding and Olbermann's dare.

Those guys who never served sure love to talk tough.

[*jason*]

I'm having a good time so far. I've had some laughs. That reading an Executive Order aloud, signing it, and then showing the cameras the signature like a 1st grade teacher reading to a classroom was gold. I'm sure many more laughs will follow. My day to day hasn't changed in the least... Nor did I expect it to.

[CageTheBengal]

1. Trump doesn't know how to give a speech that doesn't sound like the redundancy that was his rallies. He doesn't know how to sound like a leader.

2. It's obvious Pence is pulling some strings. Abortion is his hot button issue not Trump's. I really don't think Trump cares either way about abortion.

3. Pence may be worse than Trump.

4. Trump doesn't have a diplomatic bone in his body he just knows how to bully.

5. Nikki Haley is a tool. After pushing away from Trump very firmly she's now his UN lap dog.

6. Trump has no interest in unifying people unless they happen to agree with him. He only works for a portion of the country.

7. He's turned from a "no non-sense straight shooter." to sounding like a politician real quickly and a poor one at that.

8. Trump will unify our nation again. By giving us all a true common enemy much the same way Russia did during the cold war. This one will come in time once the honeymoon phase is over.

[Bengalzona]

(01-27-2017, 10:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: Reminded me of something:

http://www.newshounds.us/today_completes_seven_years_since_sean_hannity_promised_to_undergo_waterboarding_for_charity_042116


Those guys who never served sure love to talk tough.

To be fair, Trump didn't back off because he found it an immoral and and inhumane. Only because it didn't work to get information.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-28-2017, 12:34 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: To be fair, Trump didn't back off because he found it an immoral and and inhumane. Only because it didn't work to get information.

Anyone who's watched 24 knows how to really find out where the bomb is...

[Dill]

(01-27-2017, 09:34 PM)xxlt Wrote: Well, I wish I could agree. But IMHO he is under skilled and over matched for the job. He took weekend one off and hasn't killed the country yet and that is your sign of hope? Give him time, he will have you panicked too.

This.

[*jason*]

(01-28-2017, 12:34 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: To be fair, Trump didn't back off because he found it an immoral and and inhumane. Only because it didn't work to get information.

Yeah. It's hard to tout yourself as a moral authority when you stoop to the level of the "dirty rats". I like to believe that we are better than that. I think it's poor form for a commander in chief to even bring the idea up in an interview.

[Dill]

(01-27-2017, 09:24 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: 3) I'm starting to get Trump a bit - He fancies himself as the Great Negotiator, and maybe he is. If you want something from him, you have to negotiate and offer him something. And he views everything as negotiable. The Republicans in the House and Senate were the first to get this. Deals were made before he won the nomination. This is why they all get along so well right now. This "paying for the Wall" business with Mexico is negotiation for re-doing NAFTA, mark my words. Same with the China stuff.
4) Trump listens to "Mad Dog" - He backed off the waterboarding issue when Sec. of Defense Mattis informed him it doesn't work. This is reassuring.

This morning I got up and went to work listening to Trump insist Torture does work--he KNOWS it works--and he is going to bring it back.
And he is still tweeting Mexico will pay for the wall one way or another.

I come home at night and he has "listened" to Mattis--one of the few adults in his inner circle--so will back off from the torture for now. And the Mexican president has apparently gotten him to agree to stop tweeting diplomacy with Mexico.

Trump doesn't "negotiate". He bullies and threatens. He deploys the Trump brand where it works (e.g., when he has to seek loans abroad because he can't get them at home). But now he is not dealing with starry eyed apprentices or sycophantic employees or adoring alt-righters. He cannot fire China or impress them with a round of golf on his private course. 

As I type I am listening to news reports about the chaos behind the scenes as congressional Republicans scramble to repeal and keep Obamacare. 
His vice president and speaker are outflanking him to get their priorities into law.

He can't work with the press, with the CIA, the FBI--Congress, the state department, and defense are not far behind.

This is how it will be, growing chaos, day after day, week after week, until he is out.

[xxlt]

(01-27-2017, 10:18 PM)jason Wrote: I'm having a good time so far. I've had some laughs. That reading an Executive Order aloud, signing it, and then showing the cameras the signature like a 1st grade teacher reading to a classroom was gold. I'm sure many more laughs will follow. My day to day hasn't changed in the least... Nor did I expect it to.

Said millions of Germans in 1933

[HarleyDog]

All the executive orders signed this past week was eye opening to say the least but agree his is doing what he said he was going to so. However, if I remember correctly, when Obama and the dems took control 8yrs ago they moved pretty quickly too. The difference I've noticed between the two is that Trump is presidenting with a sense of transparency, while the dems shoved things down the throats of America without their knowledge. That's my take on it anyway. I agree that Trump may not be as bad as the butt-hurts and media are making him out to be but then again, I've been married 4 times so my ability to acknowledge first impressions is historically a little off. Lol!

[BengalHawk62]

Here's a pro Trump article I found quite interesting.  Some of the things he's done have been alright with me. I guess the biggest thing I've agreed with so far is pulling the US out of the TPP.  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/iowa-trump-voters-cheer-changes-dismiss-petty-fights-143444391--politics.html

[Belsnickel]

(01-30-2017, 12:47 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Here's a pro Trump article I found quite interesting.  Some of the things he's done have been alright with me. I guess the biggest thing I've agreed with so far is pulling the US out of the TPP.  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/iowa-trump-voters-cheer-changes-dismiss-petty-fights-143444391--politics.html

That was symbolic more than anything. The TPP thing still had to go through Congress, and would never have passed. This just allowed him to take credit for it rather than congressional republicans. It kind of makes me wonder just what was going on there that they would give up that political capital.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-28-2017, 07:30 AM)xxlt Wrote: Said millions of Germans in 1933

The Nazi Germany comparisons are laughable to anyone with even passing knowledge of the Weimar Republic and the rise of National Socialism.  I wonder if you realize how much you, and others who indulge in this pablum, damage your purported cause every time you indulge in this ham fisted analogy?


As for Trump's first week I don't see how anyone could be shocked.  He did exactly what he said he'd do in his campaign.  So, in essence, he's given the people who voted for him exactly what he promised them during the campaign.  How many times have we all heard the complaint that politicians say one thing when running for office and do another when actually elected?  Notice I make no judgment in this response as to the logic or efficacy of his actions, merely pointing out that he's doing what he said he'd do.

[xxlt]

(01-30-2017, 12:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The Nazi Germany comparisons are laughable to anyone with even passing knowledge of the Weimar Republic and the rise of National Socialism.  I wonder if you realize how much you, and others who indulge in this pablum, damage your purported cause every time you indulge in this ham fisted analogy?


As for Trump's first week I don't see how anyone could be shocked.  He did exactly what he said he'd do in his campaign.  So, in essence, he's given the people who voted for him exactly what he promised them during the campaign.  How many times have we all heard the complaint that politicians say one thing when running for office and do another when actually elected?  Notice I make no judgment in this response as to the logic or efficacy of his actions, merely pointing out that he's doing what he said he'd do.

I disagree. I do see strong parallels in the leadership styles and emotional make up of the two leaders in question. And the PhD who taught me the history of the Weimar Republic in high school would likely agree (and I went on to minor in history in college, btw). Painting little mustaches on pictures of Obama and Hillary and calling them Hitler did, I would say, damage the cause of those who opposed them - it was a baseless slur. Pointing out the obvious historic parallels I and others have does not, imho, do anything more than point out the relatively obvious. If you don't see it, so be it.

I concur with you that the logic and efficacy of his actions are difficult to judge, even as they disturb and frighten many. I still wonder if he is something else masquerading as the Fascist In Chief some dream of. I mean, why was the Muslim ban only 90 days? So he could fulfill a promise and appease racist morons and in the long term have it make little difference? Interetstingly, by signing that order he probably got more money donated to the ACLU, the SPLC,  People for The American Way, and other organizations sharing their values than anyone in history. Intentional or happy accident? Hard to say, when he presents himself as delusional (and thousands of psychiatrists are risking professional sanction by saying he presents himself as just that, among other things). I imagine you don't see that either, and that's cool too.

Also, it seems many Trump voters paid little attention to what he said he would do, they were voting for "not Hillary," "has a penis," or "he's rich, maybe he will make me rich too." How much attention are those folks paying to what he is doing? I honestly hear a lot more lamentations than celebrations - i.e. his critics seems quite vocal and his supporters quite quiet, which may mean they celebrate in silence, question his actions, or are unaware of them. Hard to know, hard to judge...

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-30-2017, 02:41 PM)xxlt Wrote: I disagree. I do see strong parallels in the leadership styles and emotional make up of the two leaders in question.

I would agree with this, both men have high, inflated opinions of themselves, both are thin skinned and histrionic and both favor the populist approach to power.  If you had confined your parallels to this point we'd have no disagreement.

Quote:And the PhD who taught me the history of the Weimar Republic in high school would likely agree (and I went on to minor in history in college, btw). Painting little mustaches on pictures of Obama and Hillary and calling them Hitler did, I would say, damage the cause of those who opposed them - it was a baseless slur. Pointing out the obvious historic parallels I and others have does not, imho, do anything more than point out the relatively obvious. If you don't see it, so be it.

Trump and Hitler's personalities aside there are far fewer parallels to the US today and the Weimar republic than there are enormous differences. 

Germany: A county with no democratic tradition, an autocratic history and a strong militaristic bent.  This coupled with a democratic government forced on them by the victors of a long war that killed almost a whole generation and, obviously, engendered a lot of bitterness.  Couple complete economic collapse with political chaos resulting in literal war in the streets by extreme political factions.

United States:  The longest contiguous democracy on the planet.  Self determined government by it's own people with over two hundred years of democratic institutions and tradition.  No history of authoritarianism, strong checks and balances in the government, the most robust economy on Earth.  A strong societal code and functioning criminal justice system.  No politically motivated violence between extreme factions.  The closest you get are mass group therapy sessions so people can be reassured that there are others who think like them.

So, no, there are almost no parallels between the two countries and no serious scholar of the time could make a argument otherwise.

Quote:I concur with you that the logic and efficacy of his actions are difficult to judge, even as they disturb and frighten many. I still wonder if he is something else masquerading as the Fascist In Chief some dream of. I mean, why was the Muslim ban only 90 days? So he could fulfill a promise and appease racist morons and in the long term have it make little difference? Interetstingly, by signing that order he probably got more money donated to the ACLU, the SPLC,  People for The American Way, and other organizations sharing their values than anyone in history. Intentional or happy accident? Hard to say, when he presents himself as delusional (and thousands of psychiatrists are risking professional sanction by saying he presents himself as just that, among other things). I imagine you don't see that either, and that's cool too.

All of that is fine and to be expected.  The man has extreme opinions and plans, extreme for the US anyways.  The problem is he was elected as much because of these opinions as in spite of them.  Be opposed all day, no one begrudges anyone that right.  Just don't cast inane, spurious, allegations and engage in hyperbolic comparisons to National Socialism.  You lose far more people than you assure when you do so.  It makes me think that millions of people weren't paying attention at all the last 18 months and instead are doubling down on the actions that enabled the current administrations victory.  2018 is going to go very badly for the Dems if this trend continues.

Quote:Also, it seems many Trump voters paid little attention to what he said he would do, they were voting for "not Hillary," "has a penis," or "he's rich, maybe he will make me rich too." How much attention are those folks paying to what he is doing? I honestly hear a lot more lamentations than celebrations - i.e. his critics seems quite vocal and his supporters quite quiet, which may mean they celebrate in silence, question his actions, or are unaware of them. Hard to know, hard to judge...

Sorry, I don't buy this as described.  There are many reasons Hillary lost, the one's you listed are way down the list.  I think it makes people feel better to believe what you just typed, hence it's extreme popularity.  The reality is a huge segment of the US population voted for Trump because they liked his policies.  In this regard he at least deserves credit as that almost non-existent breed of politicians, the one who actually does what they say they'll do.  He was elected to do exactly what he's doing. 

[xxlt]

(01-30-2017, 04:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Germany: A county with no democratic tradition, an autocratic history and a strong militaristic bent.  This coupled with a democratic government forced on them by the victors of a long war that killed almost a whole generation and, obviously, engendered a lot of bitterness.  Couple complete economic collapse with political chaos resulting in literal war in the streets by extreme political factions.

United States:  The longest contiguous democracy on the planet.  Self determined government by it's own people with over two hundred years of democratic institutions and tradition.  No history of authoritarianism, strong checks and balances in the government, the most robust economy on Earth.  A strong societal code and functioning criminal justice system.  No politically motivated violence between extreme factions.  The closest you get are mass group therapy sessions so people can be reassured that there are others who think like them.

Longest continuous democracy seems hardly relevant at less than 2.5 centuries - that is not a long time although you seem to view it as an eternity (note the Union almost didn't make it to 100 - see The US Civil War for more on that).

I would point out the US has a strong militaristic bent (e.g. spends ca as much as the next ten nations combined per annum on armaments, since WW II has invaded Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (twice) and those are just the "big" military actions, plus we have funneled arms and covertly and overtly supported wars all over the world - so pretty militaristic).

Complete economic collapse in Germany in the 1930's coincided with complete economic collapse here. Interestingly, we just had another significant collapse (or did you forget about the Great Recession?) and it wasn't our only post WW II dip while Germany's economy has been pretty solid post WW II. So, there's your economic parallels.

Political chaos in Germany you cited compares well to the, what's that word everyone uses to describe what is going on today in DC? Oh yeah, dysfunction. Winner of popular vote by 5 million loses Presidency because 80,000 people scattered over three states voted for the loser of the election's popular vote. Nothing chaotic about that. War in the streets. Trump and Bannon love to talk about the carnage in the streets so they seem to see a parallel there even if you and I don't.

Did Germany lack a criminal justice system in 1933? Were they locking up more of their population than any country on earth? I am just asking. Here is in the freest country in the world, we lock em up. Except for "her." There's a big broken campaign promise that has Trump supporters who chanted at rallies feeling betrayed and like this is chaos. Meanwhile his executive orders have millions more - including the descendants of immigrants (most of the country) and many members of the press corps and many intellectuals feeling things are chaotic.

So, you don't see parallels, and that is cool, but I still do.

[xxlt]

(01-30-2017, 04:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sorry, I don't buy this as described.  There are many reasons Hillary lost, the one's you listed are way down the list.  I think it makes people feel better to believe what you just typed, hence it's extreme popularity.  The reality is a huge segment of the US population voted for Trump because they liked his policies.  In this regard he at least deserves credit as that almost non-existent breed of politicians, the one who actually does what they say they'll do.  He was elected to do exactly what he's doing. 

A huge segment of the population didn't want either. I heard a handful of Hillary supporters cite policy positions or her career in politics as a plus, but most just said, "I hate her, but he's an asshole and I hate him more." Same with his supporters but even more so. I heard almost none cite a Trump policy they supported, but heard them saying, "I hate her, but she is a ***** and I don't trust her."

So, whoever won the election, it would have been a huge mistake for him or her to assume he or she had a mandate or to think "a huge segment" supported his or her policies. I think almost without question the majority of Americans to the tune or upwards or 80% did not want either of them to be President.