One Week of Trump

[McC]

So far, so good. People are probably thrown off a bit by a President taking office and right away doing what he said he would do.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-30-2017, 05:35 PM)xxlt Wrote: Longest continuous (not contiguous, assume that was a typo) democracy seems hardly relevant at less than 2.5 centuries - that is not a long time although you seem to view it as an eternity (note the Union almost didn't make it to 100 - see The US Civil War for more on that).

An eternity?  No.  A very significant amount of time?  Absolutely.  What almost happened doesn't matter at all, what did, does.  And yes, it was a typo.
 

Quote:I would point out the US has a strong militaristic bent (e.g. spends ca as much as the next ten nations combined per annum on armaments, since WW II has invaded Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (twice) and those are just the "big" military actions, plus we have funneled arms and covertly and overtly supported wars all over the world - so pretty militaristic).

We did not invade N. Korea, we responded to an invasion by North Korea.  We did not invade North Vietnam, we responded to an invasion by North Vietnam.  We did not invade Iraq, the first time, we responded to an invasion by Iraq.  The second Iraq war is the biggest blunder in US history, I've never stated anything other than that opinion.  Regardless, there is no comparison between the military as it is viewed in this country and how it was viewed in Imperial Prussia.  The military was absolutely worshipped in the Kaiser's Germany, the military as recently as 40 years or so ago was reviled in this country by many.

Quote:Complete economic collapse in Germany in the 1930's coincided with complete economic collapse here. Interestingly, we just had another significant collapse (or did you forget about the Great Recession?) and it wasn't our only post WW II dip while Germany's economy has been pretty solid post WW II. So, there's your economic parallels.

Careful, you're making my point for me.  Why, under similar economic circumstances did American democracy survive and the Weimer Republic vanish?

Quote:Political chaos in Germany you cited compares well to the, what's that word everyone uses to describe what is going on today in DC? Oh yeah, dysfunction. Winner of popular vote by 5 million loses Presidency because 80,000 people scattered over three states voted for the loser of the election's popular vote. Nothing chaotic about that. War in the streets. Trump and Bannon love to talk about the carnage in the streets so they seem to see a parallel there even if you and I don't.

Not even close.  Germany saw open warfare in the streets between the SA and the communists.  The closest comparison in US history were the strike busting riots.  Mind you, the political warfare in Germany encompassed the entire country, no area was immune.  What's going on in our government now is not even remotely comparable.

Quote:Did Germany lack a criminal justice system in 1933?

They lacked a government thought of as legitimate.  The criminal justice system is an extension of the government.

Quote:Were they locking up more of their population than any country on earth? I am just asking. Here is in the freest country in the world, we lock em up. Except for "her." There's a big broken campaign promise that has Trump supporters who chanted at rallies feeling betrayed and like this is chaos. Meanwhile his executive orders have millions more - including the descendants of immigrants (most of the country) and many members of the press corps and many intellectuals feeling things are chaotic.

How the criminal justice system functions is less important than the populace having faith in it.  Sure, there is a significant portion of our population that takes issue with the system as it currently exists.  There are more who do not.

Quote:So, you don't see parallels, and that is cool, but I still do.

There are some, but they are weak and tenuous.  I also firmly believe that the comparison is a harmful one for the exact same reason.  The left is fast becoming "the boy who cried Nazi".

(01-30-2017, 05:42 PM)xxlt Wrote: A huge segment of the population didn't want either. I heard a handful of Hillary supporters cite policy positions or her career in politics as a plus, but most just said, "I hate her, but he's an asshole and I hate him more." Same with his supporters but even more so. I heard almost none cite a Trump policy they supported, but heard them saying, "I hate her, but she is a ***** and I don't trust her."

So, whoever won the election, it would have been a huge mistake for him or her to assume he or she had a mandate or to think "a huge segment" supported his or her policies. I think almost without question the majority of Americans to the tune or upwards or 80% did not want either of them to be President.

On this we agree, neither candidate would have had a mandate, but quite honestly a mandate is just a word used to bully your opponents into not opposing your agenda. Trump won, he's implementing the policies he ran on.  Quite honestly the only surprise for people should be that a politician actually followed through on multiple campaign promises within nine days of taking office.

[xxlt]

(01-30-2017, 06:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: An eternity?  No.  A very significant amount of time?  Absolutely.  What almost happened doesn't matter at all, what did, does.  And yes, it was a typo.
 



We did not invade N. Korea, we responded to an invasion by North Korea.  We did not invade North Vietnam, we responded to an invasion by North Vietnam.  We did not invade Iraq, the first time, we responded to an invasion by Iraq.  The second Iraq war is the biggest blunder in US history, I've never stated anything other than that opinion.  Regardless, there is no comparison between the military as it is viewed in this country and how it was viewed in Imperial Prussia.  The military was absolutely worshipped in the Kaiser's Germany, the military as recently as 40 years or so ago was reviled in this country by many.




Careful, you're making my point for me.  Why, under similar economic circumstances did American democracy survive and the Weimer Republic vanish?



Not even close.  Germany saw open warfare in the streets between the SA and the communists.  The closest comparison in US history were the strike busting riots.  Mind you, the political warfare in Germany encompassed the entire country, no area was immune.  What's going on in our government now is not even remotely comparable.




They lacked a government thought of as legitimate.  The criminal justice system is an extension of the government.



How the criminal justice system functions is less important than the populace having faith in it.  Sure, there is a significant portion of our population that takes issue with the system as it currently exists.  There are more who do not.


There are some, but they are weak and tenuous.  I also firmly believe that the comparison is a harmful one for the exact same reason.  The left is fast becoming "the boy who cried Nazi".


On this we agree, neither candidate would have had a mandate, but quite honestly a mandate is just a word used to bully your opponents into not opposing your agenda. Trump won, he's implementing the policies he ran on.  Quite honestly the only surprise for people should be that a politician actually followed through on multiple campaign promises within nine days of taking office.

Our democracy is fragile, and that has been evident from its formation. Don't take it for granted.

There's a pretty (un)healthy amount of military worship in this country. Even after Vietnam! Talk about making the other person's point! Yes, there was a time when the use of the military was reviled and even the soldiers to some extent, but it was a blip on the radar. Hell I have heard veterans question our deployment of soldiers more than citizens, who don't bat an eye anymore when Johnny goes marching off.

America chose Roosevelt, which was the best thing to ever happen to it. Germany chose Hitler, the worst thing to happen to it. And ever since Roosevelt's last term there has been a small subculture hell bent on doing everything it can to undo all the good FDR did, and it appears to be culminating in electing (sorry, I'm going to say it) a fascist. I won't call him the H word, he's his own man, but the size "F" shoe fits. There were people in 1933 and every year after accused of crying wolf (though fewer each year). They were correct too.

People from Black Lives Matter to the Bundy crew to the people chanting "lock her up" at Trump rallies to the talking heads on Fox News to stoners to the people pissed about the electoral college - a lot of people see our gub'mint as illegitimate. Hell, some of the leading Republicans and Trump politicos trumpet (pardon the pun) this message.

To your last point, I heard many a Trump supporter say, 'OK, you are right he is crazy, but the President doesn't have that much power. He can't really do anything. Congress has to do stuff.' So, yeah, HIS supporters are surprised he is doing crazy shit they didn't think he could.

[McC]

(01-30-2017, 06:28 PM)xxlt Wrote: Our democracy is fragile, and that has been evident from its formation. Don't take it for granted.

There's a pretty (un)healthy amount of military worship in this country. Even after Vietnam! Talk about making the other person's point! Yes, there was a time when the use of the military was reviled and even the soldiers to some extent, but it was a blip on the radar. Hell I have heard veterans question our deployment of soldiers more than citizens, who don't bat an eye anymore when Johnny goes marching off.

America chose Roosevelt, which was the best thing to ever happen to it. Germany chose Hitler, the worst thing to happen to it. And ever since Roosevelt's last term there has been a small subculture hell bent on doing everything it can to undo all the good FDR did, and it appears to be culminating in electing (sorry, I'm going to say it) a fascist. I won't call him the H word, he's his own man, but the size "F" shoe fits. There were people in 1933 and every year after accused of crying wolf (though fewer each year). They were correct too.

People from Black Lives Matter to the Bundy crew to the people chanting "lock her up" at Trump rallies to the talking heads on Fox News to stoners to the people pissed about the electoral college - a lot of people see our gub'mint as illegitimate. Hell, some of the leading Republicans and Trump politicos trumpet (pardon the pun) this message.

To your last point, I heard many a Trump supporter say, 'OK, you are right he is crazy, but the President doesn't have that much power. He can't really do anything. Congress has to do stuff.' So, yeah, HIS supporters are surprised he is doing crazy shit they didn't think he could.

Right.  We'll be goose stepping down the streets inside a year. The previous ideology didn't work.  Its proponents, who refuse to admit that, are doing  lot of kicking and screaming on the way out.  Right now, fear mongering is all they have left. 

Really. You're gonna bring FDR into it?  He did what was appropriate for the time.  Like carpet bombing entire German cities, for instance.  Times change.  So does what's appropriate. 

Tired of the ***** terrorist walking right in the front door?  Do something about it.  I don't want some asshole making bombs next door to me. Do you? 

Obama went and apologized.  How well did that work?

Tired of illegal immigrants bleeding our economy?  Do something about it.  Don't sit around and ponder it and run it through committee and get right on it in a couple years.  Do it right now.

To the hypocritical love everyone crowd, he probably does seem like a fascist.  But to them, anything to the right of socialism must be fascism.

This is what a President getting to work looks like.  Get used to it.

They laughed at him when he said he was running.  They laughed when he said he'd win the nomination.  They laughed and called him names when when he said he'd win the election.  Then they said he'd get nothing done.  Does a building have to fall on you, or what?

[xxlt]

(01-30-2017, 07:28 PM)McC Wrote: 1. Right.  We'll be goose stepping down the streets inside a year. The previous ideology didn't work.  Its proponents, who refuse to admit that, are doing  lot of kicking and screaming on the way out.  Right now, fear mongering is all they have left. 

2. Really. You're gonna bring FDR into it?  He did what was appropriate for the time.  Like carpet bombing entire German cities, for instance.  Times change.  So does what's appropriate. 

3. Tired of the ***** terrorist walking right in the front door?  Do something about it.  I don't want some asshole making bombs next door to me. Do you? 

4. Obama went and apologized.  How well did that work?

5. Tired of illegal immigrants bleeding our economy?  Do something about it.  Don't sit around and ponder it and run it through committee and get right on it in a couple years.  Do it right now.

6. To the hypocritical love everyone crowd, he probably does seem like a fascist.  But to them, anything to the right of socialism must be fascism.

7. This is what a President getting to work looks like.  Get used to it.

8. They laughed at him when he said he was running.  They laughed when he said he'd win the nomination.  They laughed and called him names when when he said he'd win the election.  Then they said he'd get nothing done.  Does a building have to fall on you, or what?

1. It can never happen here. Famous last words.

2. Yes, FDR did what was appropriate to build an economy, win a war, and make America the greatest country on earth. But some people thought times changed and America should no longer be great. You sound like one of them. I enjoy talking about our greatest President, bring him up often, and just stare in disbelief at the morons who have no appreciation for him.

3. Terrorists walked in the front door from Saudi Arabia. What did Bush do? Told Americans to go shopping, quit thinking about Bin Laden, and wasted $3 trillion dollars on a war that served to fuel terrorist recruiting and accomplished nothing else but destroying the lives of thousands of American GIs.

4. I think you mean he ordered the killing of Osama Bin Laden. That worked pretty well. But yeah, he's a ***** and so is everyone who doesn't own stock in Halliburton, cares about the environment and other humans, or displays any hint of humanity.

5. Illegal immigrants bleed our economy in direct proportion to the number of bones Goofy and Pluto ingest in a year. It is a tired fantasy. Freshen it up - look at some porn instead.

6. No, to people who know the definition of fascism he seems like a fascist. There are idiots posting here who don't know the difference between liberalism and fascism. So, there's the good news: you aren't alone in your lack of understanding of political ideology and terminology.

7. No, this is what the preamble to an impeachment looks like. He doesn't understand the law, lives in a fantasy world where he makes up the details, and has his adopted party, his staff, conservative business leaders, and the court system struggling to keep his mistakes from mushrooming out of control.

8. Nice allusion to 9-11. With this genius in charge we may have another colossal security failure and another boondoggle war, but we all know you will blame Obama if it happens. But it is a real joy to know how hard he makes your peeper. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-30-2017, 05:42 PM)xxlt Wrote: A huge segment of the population didn't want either. I heard a handful of Hillary supporters cite policy positions or her career in politics as a plus, but most just said, "I hate her, but he's an asshole and I hate him more." Same with his supporters but even more so. I heard almost none cite a Trump policy they supported, but heard them saying, "I hate her, but she is a ***** and I don't trust her."

So, whoever won the election, it would have been a huge mistake for him or her to assume he or she had a mandate or to think "a huge segment" supported his or her policies. I think almost without question the majority of Americans to the tune or upwards or 80% did not want either of them to be President.

Then you need to stop putting the crayons in your ears.

I have said all along I liked his immigration and economic stances and that I did not like Hillary's stances and many Trump supporters I know have said the same thing. Bring the jobs back and get a handle on immigrants. So just stop with the BS. The extreme idiots are the ones you are talking to or reading about on MSM.

Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do and for that I'm glad. It's nice to see someone fulfilling their promises asap rather than stretching them out for years and get your vote again for them for the same stupid issue.

[Bengalzona]

Please keep the conversation civil in here, guys.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Bengalzona]

Strike two. This thread is about to get tanked.

Treat each other civilly. Damn it!

[xxlt]

(01-30-2017, 10:19 PM)McC Wrote: Based on what?  Ther minute you put words in my mouth, I'm done with you.  You aren't interested in a conversation.  You'll say whatever you feel you have to to try and win a point.  I avoid such fools like death.

Obama just inherited what was in place on Bin Laden.  The search had been on for years.  That was right place, right time.  At least he didn't call off the search.  So, reason two I have no use for you--the bullshit.

And again, they keep taking on Trump and he keeps winning.  So keep talking impeachment with Rosie and Madonna and the rest and the rest of the lunatic academy and see where it leads.  Here's where--four more years.  This guy's going nowhere and all the whining and goofy slogans and stupid protests where nobody can even tell you what they're protesting will change that. 

This is what the president doing his job looks like.  You may not recognize right on the heels of that last traitorous Manchurian Candidate who raped the office for the last eight years.

Also, you may want to rethink that position that anyone who doesn't appreciate what you do is an idiot.  Unless being an asshole is your intent.  In that case, continue on.

I needn't waste my energy thinking about what people disagreeing with me are. They make it perfectly clear. I have tremendous respect and fondness for many who disagree with me, as do they for me. You, on the other hand, have painted a different picture of yourself, as is your gawd given rat to do. Keep on keepin' on champ.