thoughts on HRCs free college tuition/loan plan

[*michaelsean*]

I've always been a person who said not everyone needs to go to college, but man when it's your kid, it doesn't really sound as good. While we know in our hearts that our kids are most likely going to be average Joes, there is always that hope that they will become something much more, and cosmetology school would just sort of extinguish that hope. Although, someone who learns a trade could eventually go into business for themselves and become very financially successful.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2016, 11:10 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I've always been a person who said not everyone needs to go to college, but man when it's your kid, it doesn't really sound as good.  While we know in our hearts that our kids are most likely going to be average Joes, there is always that hope that they will become something much more, and cosmetology school would just sort of extinguish that hope.  Although, someone who learns a trade could eventually go into business for themselves and become very financially successful.

My daughter ended up going the high school's tech center for three years.

I teased her about being a "techer" and needing to buy some flannel shirts, but it was a great decision.  After three years she had her cosmetology license and a job.  No further schooling needed unless she chose to do it.

My son will be a freshman and is looking at going up there for their electrical engineering.

I always told them that a skill is better than a piece of paper IF you have one.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-12-2016, 11:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: My daughter ended up going the high school's tech center for three years.

I teased her about being a "techer" and needing to buy some flannel shirts, but it was a great decision.  After three years she had her cosmetology license and a job.  No further schooling needed unless she chose to do it.

My son will be a freshman and is looking at going up there for their electrical engineering.

I always told them that a skill is better than a piece of paper IF you have one.

Oh there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.  Just some part wants them to have more than just a job.

[XenoMorph]

(08-09-2016, 05:39 PM)Millhouse Wrote: As I said elsewhere I am voting for HRC because I just cant vote for Trump. But this is one thing I completely disagree with her & the Bernie crowd about, and why I am voting Republican for the house & senate seat here. I'll post below directly from her website on what would happen if she wins and Dems win congress back.

"Every student should have the option to graduate from a public college or university in their state without taking on any student debt. By 2021, families with income up to $125,000 will pay no tuition at in-state four-year public colleges and universities. And from the beginning, every student from a family making $85,000 a year or less will be able to go to an in-state four-year public college or university without paying tuition.

All community colleges will offer free tuition." - https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/college/

I just cant agree with that at all. I am in favor of the government working with universities/colleges to help lower costs of tuition/books/housing for everyone across the board. Or working with students from lower income families on lowering loan interests and providing more grants to help out. And I am also fine with helping out parents going back to school. Thats fine. But this to me is too socialistic in nature when we carry the free world with our military. And not to mention if a family earns $130,000 they are getting ****ed when the family next door that makes $5000 less can send their kids off for free to college.

Anyways this hasnt been talked about much in here, and I know many that post in here went to college, so just like to hear your take on it without  your political party blinders on.

so vote for the most corrupt politican possible got it.


on the subject handing out free college educations will not result in better educated people.  it will result in larger dept and a lot of people getting a 4 year party at some school.

Sure some will take advantage of it.  But something given has no value compared to something earned.  if your paying for your tuition you have more reason to take it seriously.

[*michaelsean*]

Here is something I wasn't aware of. A kid who gets a full ride to college either athletically or academically is still eligible for Pell Grants? I don't know if that amounts to much in the big scheme, but that seems like an incredible waste of money. A guy I know helped raise a kid who got a full football scholarship, and still receives $11,000 a year.

[Belsnickel]

(08-16-2016, 09:13 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Here is something I wasn't aware of. A kid who gets a full ride to college either athletically or academically is still eligible for Pell Grants? I don't know if that amounts to much in the big scheme, but that seems like an incredible waste of money. A guy I know helped raise a kid who got a full football scholarship, and still receives $11,000 a year.

Something is not right, there. A university puts out what they call the "cost of attendance." This figure is usually provided in the office that handles financial aid awarding. To give you an idea, this is the website showing the amount for James Madison University: http://www.jmu.edu/financialaid/learn/cost-of-attendance-undergrad.shtml

The total awarded amount of financial aid, and this is by federal regulations, mind you, cannot exceed this amount for the year (or a figure based on that calculation). The means athletics, grants, scholarships, and even loans. If a student is awarded an amount beyond this and the university is audited by the DoE or by the NCAA, then there will be fines involved if that money was not taken back from the student. If a student receives an actual full athletics scholarship, meaning 100% of their eligibility, then their entire aid eligibility is used up with athletics and they cannot take anything else out, especially Pell. If a student that is on a full ride is receiving Pell in addition to that then they are violating regulations to give the student that money, and they are denying those funds to a student that could really benefit from them.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-16-2016, 11:33 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Something is not right, there. A university puts out what they call the "cost of attendance." This figure is usually provided in the office that handles financial aid awarding. To give you an idea, this is the website showing the amount for James Madison University: http://www.jmu.edu/financialaid/learn/cost-of-attendance-undergrad.shtml

The total awarded amount of financial aid, and this is by federal regulations, mind you, cannot exceed this amount for the year (or a figure based on that calculation). The means athletics, grants, scholarships, and even loans. If a student is awarded an amount beyond this and the university is audited by the DoE or by the NCAA, then there will be fines involved if that money was not taken back from the student. If a student receives an actual full athletics scholarship, meaning 100% of their eligibility, then their entire aid eligibility is used up with athletics and they cannot take anything else out, especially Pell. If a student that is on a full ride is receiving Pell in addition to that then they are violating regulations to give the student that money, and they are denying those funds to a student that could really benefit from them.

Well it is an Ohio State rival.  Perhaps I should turn them in.

It didn't seem like that should be the case, but the guy I know assures me that he gets that money, and it doesn't go toward offsetting some of his scholarship.  The kid just gets to pocket it.  Next time I see him, I will ask him some more about it.

[fredtoast]

(08-16-2016, 09:13 AM)michaelsean Wrote:  A guy I know helped raise a kid who got a full football scholarship, and still receives $11,000 a year.

I'll bet this "pell grant" comes in cash distributed by an assistant football coach.

[Belsnickel]

(08-16-2016, 11:39 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Well it is an Ohio State rival.  Perhaps I should turn them in.

It didn't seem like that should be the case, but the guy I know assures me that he gets that money, and it doesn't go toward offsetting some of his scholarship.  The kid just gets to pocket it.  Next time I see him, I will ask him some more about it.

If the student lives off campus, then that money will be given to the student directly, but it is intended to be for living expenses. Of course, it is the worst kept secret in higher education that athletes are given preferential treatment over other students even though NCAA regulations say they are not supposed to be. So who knows what that school is doing.

[Belsnickel]

(08-16-2016, 11:39 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Well it is an Ohio State rival.  Perhaps I should turn them in.

It didn't seem like that should be the case, but the guy I know assures me that he gets that money, and it doesn't go toward offsetting some of his scholarship.  The kid just gets to pocket it.  Next time I see him, I will ask him some more about it.

So, I have learned today that this happens here, as well. Something must be configured in a certain way so that some of these athletes are receiving Pell, even though it isn't needed to pay their expenses. It's apparently very common. One of my employees handles both Pell and Athletics and she was filling me in on it.

Not going to lie, I'm considering writing to some people about this. I find it ridiculous that in an age when we are discussing the high amounts of debt that students are leaving college with that full scholarship individuals are also receiving Pell. There has to be some sort of loophole in all of that for this and it's ridiculous because that money could, and should, be given to students that need it more and aren't having all of their expenses and then some covered.

[Rotobeast]

(08-17-2016, 12:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I have learned today that this happens here, as well. Something must be configured in a certain way so that some of these athletes are receiving Pell, even though it isn't needed to pay their expenses. It's apparently very common. One of my employees handles both Pell and Athletics and she was filling me in on it.

Not going to lie, I'm considering writing to some people about this. I find it ridiculous that in an age when we are discussing the high amounts of debt that students are leaving college with that full scholarship individuals are also receiving Pell. There has to be some sort of loophole in all of that for this and it's ridiculous because that money could, and should, be given to students that need it more and aren't having all of their expenses and then some covered.

You have my support, but be careful.
If it is a workaround that colleges use to help attract/retain athletes, you may be putting your employment at risk.
Maybe be an anonymous source to a news reporter ?
Regardless.... good luck.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[*michaelsean*]

(08-17-2016, 12:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I have learned today that this happens here, as well. Something must be configured in a certain way so that some of these athletes are receiving Pell, even though it isn't needed to pay their expenses. It's apparently very common. One of my employees handles both Pell and Athletics and she was filling me in on it.

Not going to lie, I'm considering writing to some people about this. I find it ridiculous that in an age when we are discussing the high amounts of debt that students are leaving college with that full scholarship individuals are also receiving Pell. There has to be some sort of loophole in all of that for this and it's ridiculous because that money could, and should, be given to students that need it more and aren't having all of their expenses and then some covered.

Damn.  Thanks for looking into it.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2016, 12:47 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: You have my support, but be careful.
If it is a workaround that colleges use to help attract/retain athletes, you may be putting your employment at risk.
Maybe be an anonymous source to a news reporter ?
Regardless.... good luck.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

I plan to write to legislators about it, state and fed. I have no issues about putting myself out there on this. Especially since our university president has made the statement time and time again that we are not going to put athletics first. If there were to be some sort of repercussions on that front then it would be something they would never hear the end of. You can't make that claim while giving so much preferential treatment to athletes that it actually hinders other students.

[Rotobeast]

(08-17-2016, 01:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I plan to write to legislators about it, state and fed. I have no issues about putting myself out there on this. Especially since our university president has made the statement time and time again that we are not going to put athletics first. If there were to be some sort of repercussions on that front then it would be something they would never hear the end of. You can't make that claim while giving so much preferential treatment to athletes that it actually hinders other students.

Much respect to you, Matt.

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2016, 01:37 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Much respect to you, Matt.

I'm still in the information gathering stage. I want to find out all about the awarding calculations before I come out being angry about something there is no need to be. Talking with some of my colleagues in the department that does those. But from some of the research I have already done, I don't think this is something I need to be quite as mad about. I still am not happy about it, but here is what I have discovered.

Athletic scholarships are calculated in the award eligibility and they cannot exceed the Cost of Attendance (CoA), like I mentioned earlier. This includes their entire award package. So if CoA is 10,000 then the amount they receive in total for financial aid cannot go over that. They find ways around this for athletes all the time, but that's a different issue. Anyway, the actual scholarship amount for the athletes set forth by the NCAA used to only be able to pay for tuition, fees, room, board, and books. While those charges make up the bulk of the CoA, they are not all of it. So that gap between what athletics pays (officially) through the student's account and what the CoA is, is what is covered by things like Pell if the student is eligible. What bugs me about this is that the student is already getting a full ride, that money could go to students that aren't so lucky. That difference is about $4k a year here, could be more elsewhere, and that can really help a student not able to attend.

Now, onto the news on this front. Some of you, being this is a sports forum after all, may know about the new NCAA rules regarding CoA payments. You may have heard about it and known that schools, if they choose to use them, will be paying their student athletes more money. This different I am talking about here is what is now allowed to be covered under NCAA rules. Our school is paying it for a couple of sports, but not all. What I like about this idea is that it makes athletic departments responsible for paying this money rather than it being taken away from students that are here for the academics and are getting told there is no more aid available to them or they have to take out loans to cover. The amount of Pell for our school I mentioned earlier is enough to make it so that a student would not have to sake out an unsubsidized loan for the year, which can really mean a lot for a student.

Anyway, off my little soapbox. I handle the accounting for the actual money so this has prompted me to learn more about the calculations used for awarding funds and what not. Kind of interesting.

[JustWinBaby]

(08-17-2016, 12:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I have learned today that this happens here, as well. Something must be configured in a certain way so that some of these athletes are receiving Pell, even though it isn't needed to pay their expenses.

It could be some different, but I've heard that "full rides" don't always cover the full cost of attendance (books, computer, walking around money, etc not included in tuition, room & board) and so Pell grants can fill in the gaps.

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2016, 02:13 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: It could be some different, but I've heard that "full rides" don't always cover the full cost of attendance (books, computer, walking around money, etc not included in tuition, room & board) and so Pell grants can fill in the gaps.

I learned more about this. I was just typing out my novella when you posted your comment.

[*bfine32*]

(08-17-2016, 02:13 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: It could be some different, but I've heard that "full rides" don't always cover the full cost of attendance (books, computer, walking around money, etc not included in tuition, room & board) and so Pell grants can fill in the gaps.

This was the situation my son was in. His "full-ride" scholarship wound up costing a couple thousand dollars each year.

But back to the OP: Hasn't Hillary backed off of the "free college for all" stance?