PA Republicans jeer, leave floor in protest of officers who defended Capitol

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-06-2024, 09:27 AM)GMDino Wrote: No, no, the "justification" (and thank you for the ling) is that they are republican so they can't be even courteous to two people who defended the Capitol on January 6th just like some guy on the streets of NY who believes whatever the right wing spin machine tell him.  That's worse. 



But you also said you believed they were contradicted by the Jan 6th videos.  I wondered about what.

Your mind is made up. 

No sense of discussing it further with you and your pre-set partisan narrative.

Stay in lockstep. 

[GMDino]

(06-06-2024, 09:35 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Your mind is made up. 

No sense of discussing it further with you and your pre-set partisan narrative.

Stay in lockstep. 

In other words you believe something with no proof but I'm the partisan for saying republicans could have show respect for the officers....even they disagreed with their politics.

Someone else calls that "self projection", and in this case he may be right.

[Belsnickel]

(06-05-2024, 10:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But they don't, except in this one, very specific instance.  Hence the point you know is being made but are ignoring.

...

These "officers" are partisan actors shilling for Dems.  They're also the only LEO's the Dems attempt to lionize.  Pointing this  out is more than fair.

I don't disagree that these are partisan shills, but you are painting with a very broad brush, here. Most people, no matter their political leaning, are really just looking for fairness and consistency. The problem is that most people also aren't savvy enough (or maybe they are too lazy) to be more discerning in their information gathering. They form ad hoc opinions based in sensational media that is aimed at riling them up. So they perceive the actions of police to have been unjust even when they may not be, or they see minor issues as being blown out of proportion. Then, they paint with the broad brush like you are using here.

The whole "thin blue line" marketing, especially when it is done on Punisher skulls, has been a huge detriment to the community relations for police nationwide. Plus you have some of the changes in policing that have a negative image. For example, more and more police are going with the vest for their uniforms. Now, what does it look like to the average citizen? Very militaristic. What is it really about? Better weight distribution for the gear, but the average citizen doesn't understand that at all.

You know me, I really do try to see things from all sides as much as possible. Most Dems I know have no problems with police as individuals, it's all about the systemic issues inherent in our criminal justice system. But people are stupid and because LEOs are the face of that most accessible to them, they get the brunt of the ire. Then there has been a backlash from police, which causes a behavioral loop of jackassery

[*pally*]

(06-05-2024, 08:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fascinating point.  My compatriots and I endured more in a single day in the spring and summer of 2020 than they did on 01/06 and we did it for months.  So remember your point when you wonder why law enforcement overwhelmingly despises the Democratic party.  

Just curious, were the people who threw bottles of urine and spit on us deplorables?  How about the people, often white, who called my black compatriots Uncle Toms and house n*****s.  Or the Hispanic officers "race traitors?  How about the people who threw the brick fragment that fractured my friend's jaw and knocked out two of their teeth?  I could go on if you like.

Your compatriots and you endured the actions of spring and summer of 2020 because other groups of your compatriots committed murder or caused the deaths of  innocent persons due to their actions with little or no recourse until thier communties rose up.  And before you get on your high horse.  I am not condoning their actions by any means. Understanding why something happens does not equate to support of those actions

And you like to claim that Democats hate cops...what we hate is bad cops.   And far too many of those are in departments all over the country.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-06-2024, 10:06 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't disagree that these are partisan shills, but you are painting with a very broad brush, here. Most people, no matter their political leaning, are really just looking for fairness and consistency. The problem is that most people also aren't savvy enough (or maybe they are too lazy) to be more discerning in their information gathering. They form ad hoc opinions based in sensational media that is aimed at riling them up. So they perceive the actions of police to have been unjust even when they may not be, or they see minor issues as being blown out of proportion. Then, they paint with the broad brush like you are using here.

If you're talking about the Democratic party as a whole, maybe.  But what I've dealt with the last six plus years from that same party here is nothing short of an utter disaster and it is ongoing.  Also, while I acknowledge that the loudest voice are often amplified, I can't recall a single Dem of any prominence pushing back against the "defund the police", the criminal justice system is inherently racist, the police were crated to stop runaway slaves narrative.  It was years before anyone dared voice anything contrary to that, and the voices calling for it were myriad, right up to the eventual VP.

Quote:The whole "thin blue line" marketing, especially when it is done on Punisher skulls, has been a huge detriment to the community relations for police nationwide. Plus you have some of the changes in policing that have a negative image. For example, more and more police are going with the vest for their uniforms. Now, what does it look like to the average citizen? Very militaristic. What is it really about? Better weight distribution for the gear, but the average citizen doesn't understand that at all.

The Punisher skull is complete cringe for me, the thin blue line flags not so much.  If you want to display the latter as a show of support I really don't have an issue with that.  As for the harness, not much to add other than what you already said.

Quote:You know me, I really do try to see things from all sides as much as possible. Most Dems I know have no problems with police as individuals, it's all about the systemic issues inherent in our criminal justice system. But people are stupid and because LEOs are the face of that most accessible to them, they get the brunt of the ire. Then there has been a backlash from police, which causes a behavioral loop of jackassery

Don't we always here on this board how the GOP is complicit with Trump because so few of them stand up to him or push back against his biggest excesses?  How does that same logic not directly apply to this issue with the Dems?

(06-06-2024, 10:09 AM)pally Wrote: Your compatriots and you endured the actions of spring and summer of 2020 because other groups of your compatriots committed murder or caused the deaths of  innocent persons due to their actions with little or no recourse until thier communties rose up.  And before you get on your high horse.  I am not condoning their actions by any means. Understanding why something happens does not equate to support of those actions

Incorrect, other individuals, not other groups.  I'm sure you'll apply the same "understanding" to the people who think Trump is being persecuted as well.

Quote:And you like to claim that Democats hate cops...what we hate is bad cops.   And far too many of those are in departments all over the country.  

If you only hate "bad cops" then you guys really need to work on your messaging, because that's not what comes across.  At all.  Also, you'll please forgive me if I call bullshit on your claim seeing as I have to deal with horrible Dem policies on this subject on a daily basis.  Policies that harm the communities the Dems pretend to care about.  As for your "far too many" assertion, I'll call bullshit on that as well.  The number of bad cops is exceedingly small, just as is the number of bad employees in every profession.  The only time you ever hear about an LEO in the news, aside from the Capitol Hill officers, is when something bad happened.  So kindly provide proof of your claims or narrow your claim because as stated you're full of it.

[*pally*]

(06-06-2024, 11:01 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you're talking about the Democratic party as a whole, maybe.  But what I've dealt with the last six plus years from that same party here is nothing short of an utter disaster and it is ongoing.  Also, while I acknowledge that the loudest voice are often amplified, I can't recall a single Dem of any prominence pushing back against the "defund the police", the criminal justice system is inherently racist, the police were crated to stop runaway slaves narrative.  It was years before anyone dared voice anything contrary to that, and the voices calling for it were myriad, right up to the eventual VP.



The Punisher skull is complete cringe for me, the thin blue line flags not so much.  If you want to display the latter as a show of support I really don't have an issue with that.  As for the harness, not much to add other than what you already said.


Don't we always here on this board how the GOP is complicit with Trump because so few of them stand up to him or push back against his biggest excesses?  How does that same logic not directly apply to this issue with the Dems?


Incorrect, other individuals, not other groups.  I'm sure you'll apply the same "understanding" to the people who think Trump is being persecuted as well.


If you only hate "bad cops" then you guys really need to work on your messaging, because that's not what comes across.  At all.  Also, you'll please forgive me if I call bullshit on your claim seeing as I have to deal with horrible Dem policies on this subject on a daily basis.  Policies that harm the communities the Dems pretend to care about.  As for your "far too many" assertion, I'll call bullshit on that as well.  The number of bad cops is exceedingly small, just as is the number of bad employees in every profession.  The only time you ever hear about an LEO in the news, aside from the Capitol Hill officers, is when something bad happened.  So kindly provide proof of your claims or narrow your claim because as stated you're full of it.

maybe but they are far too visible and impactful on the community unlike bad enployees in other industries.  I've also livd in enough differet areas where the county sheriff is the most powerful person in the county building their own little fifedoms, filling their ranks with cronies and nepotistic hires.  

You have large communities of people in every single jurisdiction, that have legitimate reasons not to trust the police.  Every action by a bad cop reverberates throughtout the community 10fold.  And you have a large number of police who don't trust their communities.  Every injury every death lreverberates 10fold throughout the police community.   Mutual distrust creates chaos and lawlessness

The paradigm won't change unilaterally

  

[NATI BENGALS]

(06-06-2024, 11:01 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can't recall a single Dem of any prominence pushing back against the "defund the police"
It was years before anyone dared voice anything contrary to that, and the voices calling for it were myriad, right up to the eventual VP.

I do. Here is a story from almost exactly four years ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/joe-biden-defund-the-police/index.html

"”No, I don't support defunding the police," the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee said in an interview with CBS”

I get it comes with the territory and the culture. But you should take a peak outside of that hatred filled little bubble you live in every once in awhile.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-06-2024, 10:09 AM)pally Wrote: Your compatriots and you endured the actions of spring and summer of 2020 because other groups of your compatriots committed murder or caused the deaths of  innocent persons due to their actions with little or no recourse until thier communties rose up.  And before you get on your high horse.  I am not condoning their actions by any means. Understanding why something happens does not equate to support of those actions

And you like to claim that Democats hate cops...what we hate is bad cops.   And far too many of those are in departments all over the country.  

(06-06-2024, 11:54 AM)pally Wrote: maybe but they are far too visible and impactful on the community unlike bad enployees in other industries.  I've also livd in enough differet areas where the county sheriff is the most powerful person in the county building their own little fifedoms, filling their ranks with cronies and nepotistic hires.  

You have large communities of people in every single jurisdiction, that have legitimate reasons not to trust the police.  Every action by a bad cop reverberates throughtout the community 10fold.  And you have a large number of police who don't trust their communities.  Every injury every death lreverberates 10fold throughout the police community.   Mutual distrust creates chaos and lawlessness

The paradigm won't change unilaterally

  

Pally, you seem very strangely anti Police Officers.  Can you please tell us specifically which officer it was that harmed you?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-06-2024, 08:33 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I do. Here is a story from almost exactly four years ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/joe-biden-defund-the-police/index.html

"”No, I don't support defunding the police," the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee said in an interview with CBS”

Cool, one example.  Thank you for providing it.  Now explain why his VP was shilling to raise bail money for arrested felons.

Quote:I get it comes with the territory and the culture. But you should take a peak outside of that hatred filled little bubble you live in every once in awhile.

"Hatred filled little bubble".  You are so precious.

[NATI BENGALS]

(06-06-2024, 09:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Cool, one example.  Thank you for providing it.  Now explain why his VP was shilling to raise bail money for arrested felons.


"Hatred filled little bubble".  You are so precious.

I’d venture to guess it has something to do with the first amendment of the constitution and our right to assemble. And some politicians were probably told innocent protestors were being swept up with the rioters and asshats.


I figured you would like that one lol

[Belsnickel]

(06-06-2024, 11:01 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you're talking about the Democratic party as a whole, maybe.  But what I've dealt with the last six plus years from that same party here is nothing short of an utter disaster and it is ongoing.  Also, while I acknowledge that the loudest voice are often amplified, I can't recall a single Dem of any prominence pushing back against the "defund the police", the criminal justice system is inherently racist, the police were crated to stop runaway slaves narrative.  It was years before anyone dared voice anything contrary to that, and the voices calling for it were myriad, right up to the eventual VP.

I mean, the defund thing has been mentioned, but I also strongly believe that there is a lot of misunderstanding with that movement in general on both sides of the discussion. People calling for it have a wide variety of views on what needs to happen but they have rallied around this one message that makes them seem monolithic to the other side. On the same token, most of them don't really understand what they are asking for, either. But this is what we get with democracy, people who have no idea what the **** they are talking about talking about it. It sucks sometimes, but it is a necessity. As for the racism narratives, I think we see here again some misunderstandings. I also believe the criminal justice system is inherently racist and it is true that police in some areas were created with the purpose of stopping runaway slaves. However, on the one side people are using that to attack individuals who just want to serve their communities and on the other side, it is being taken as a personal offense when it isn't always intended to be (like how I am discussing the systemic issues, not the ones related to individuals).

(06-06-2024, 11:01 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The Punisher skull is complete cringe for me, the thin blue line flags not so much.  If you want to display the latter as a show of support I really don't have an issue with that.  As for the harness, not much to add other than what you already said.

I think the thin blue line thing has been coopted to a point of no return, at least around here. You don't see it unless it is with "MOLON LABE", III, a Punisher skull, or a Gadsden flag. I don't know what to do with these people.

(06-06-2024, 11:01 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Don't we always here on this board how the GOP is complicit with Trump because so few of them stand up to him or push back against his biggest excesses?  How does that same logic not directly apply to this issue with the Dems?

The difference between the two is that Trump runs the GOP. Those who fall in line with the GOP platform -- which in 2020 was no platform, just Trump -- are complicit with Trump. When it comes to the Democrats, the platform is not about defunding the police. It is about working on evidence-based reforms to improve community policing that works to reduce our prison populations and treat everyone equitably. That is providing resources to law enforcement, not taking them away.

Now, in neither party is it required that a member hold to the platform, one of the problems with our system to be honest. It's hard to really define anyone based on party when neither party requires upholding the platform. However, given these two things and our discussion here, the resistance to Trump in the GOP is the exception and the defund the police movement is also the exception. Both are not holding to the party platforms in their positions.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-07-2024, 08:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I mean, the defund thing has been mentioned, but I also strongly believe that there is a lot of misunderstanding with that movement in general on both sides of the discussion. People calling for it have a wide variety of views on what needs to happen but they have rallied around this one message that makes them seem monolithic to the other side. On the same token, most of them don't really understand what they are asking for, either. But this is what we get with democracy, people who have no idea what the **** they are talking about talking about it. It sucks sometimes, but it is a necessity.

Which I'd have zero issue accepting if the media was at all even handed in covering this topic.

Quote:As for the racism narratives, I think we see here again some misunderstandings. I also believe the criminal justice system is inherently racist and it is true that police in some areas were created with the purpose of stopping runaway slaves. However, on the one side people are using that to attack individuals who just want to serve their communities and on the other side, it is being taken as a personal offense when it isn't always intended to be (like how I am discussing the systemic issues, not the ones related to individuals).

I think the criminal justice system was inherently racist.  I do not believe it continues to be in the vast majority of this country.  That some police departments were created to stop runaway slaves was never in dispute.  What was in dispute, correctly, is the assertion, made quite often, that THE police were created for that purpose.  Which, of course, ignores the long history of policing in western nations that never had slaves in the modern era.  I disagree with your last sentence, I have never heard the argument made without an intent to impugn the profession in modern day.  I'm certainly not going to say that's never happened, but that's definitely the intent for the vast majority of people who raise this point.

Quote:I think the thin blue line thing has been coopted to a point of no return, at least around here. You don't see it unless it is with "MOLON LABE", III, a Punisher skull, or a Gadsden flag. I don't know what to do with these people.

I know what to do with them, stop giving them oxygen by continued attempts at infringement.  Every idiotic lawmakers looking to ban "full semi-automatic" weapons or claiming that "assault rifles" literally vaporize a body throws more fuel on that fire.  Colorado just tried to pass a ban on all semi-automatic weapons, a blatantly unconstitutional act.  As long as these attempts to continue to be made you're going to get more of these dudes.

Quote:The difference between the two is that Trump runs the GOP. Those who fall in line with the GOP platform -- which in 2020 was no platform, just Trump -- are complicit with Trump. When it comes to the Democrats, the platform is not about defunding the police. It is about working on evidence-based reforms to improve community policing that works to reduce our prison populations and treat everyone equitably. That is providing resources to law enforcement, not taking them away.

This needs more clarification.  It's not about defunding everywhere.  But it definitely is in some areas, and the west coast is chocked full of them.  So I am very comfortable asserting that defunding the police is absolutely a goal for the Dems in major areas of this nation because I see it literally every day I'm at work.

Quote:Now, in neither party is it required that a member hold to the platform, one of the problems with our system to be honest. It's hard to really define anyone based on party when neither party requires upholding the platform. However, given these two things and our discussion here, the resistance to Trump in the GOP is the exception and the defund the police movement is also the exception. Both are not holding to the party platforms in their positions.

It may be hard at the national level, it's much easier at the local, which is what concerns me far more.  So when I say the Democratic Party is fully deserving of ridicule and scorn for their take on the criminal justice system I mean it.  As you say, they don't police their own members, and neither does the GOP so you're getting lumped together.

I'll end by reiterating one of the reasons I posted in here to begin with.  The Dems pathetically transparent embracing of the Capitol Hill officers is as patronizing as it is offensive.  They saw a chance to push back against their anti-law enforcement image, richly deserved though it is.  Trust me when I ay no law enforcement officer is buying it, at all.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-06-2024, 08:33 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I do. Here is a story from almost exactly four years ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/joe-biden-defund-the-police/index.html

"”No, I don't support defunding the police," the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee said in an interview with CBS”

I get it comes with the territory and the culture. But you should take a peak outside of that hatred filled little bubble you live in every once in awhile.

From 4 years ago?

Probably pandering for votes. 

[samhain]

(06-05-2024, 10:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: Do we really want to get into why white supremacists don't seem to have a problem with the police?  

I think they have a huge problem with police.  The non-passive ones anyway.  A few of the prominent Unite the Right organizers from the Charlottesville debacle were very active anti-police activists.  Like on terrorist watchlist anti-cop.

Also, there's at least one recent example of Neo Nazis killing cops.

Most white supremacists hate the government in all forms.  This probably begins with the ATF (everyone hates the ATF), then various federal branches, then local.  

It's a strange circle.  You walk fall enough left or right and eventually ideologies will run into each other.  It's also likely to get worse with the rising anti-semitic rhetoric on the far left.  Obviously leftists and Nazis hate each other by definition, but they are beginning to find common ground in hating Jews.  It's depressing as hell.

Personal theory: when demonizing Jews becomes prominent in the extremes of both parties, your country is in decline.  Anti-Semitism is the canary in the coal mine.  Various races are scapegoats all over the world, but Jews are universal scapegoats.  

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-08-2024, 01:28 PM)samhain Wrote: I think they have a huge problem with police.  The non-passive ones anyway.  A few of the prominent Unite the Right organizers from the Charlottesville debacle were very active anti-police activists.  Like on terrorist watchlist anti-cop.

Also, there's at least one recent example of Neo Nazis killing cops.

Most white supremacists hate the government in all forms.  This probably begins with the ATF (everyone hates the ATF), then various federal branches, then local.  

It's a strange circle.  You walk fall enough left or right and eventually ideologies will run into each other.  It's also likely to get worse with the rising anti-semitic rhetoric on the far left.  Obviously leftists and Nazis hate each other by definition, but they are beginning to find common ground in hating Jews.  It's depressing as hell.

Personal theory: when demonizing Jews becomes prominent in the extremes of both parties, your country is in decline.  Anti-Semitism is the canary in the coal mine.  Various races are scapegoats all over the world, but Jews are universal scapegoats.  

All groups kill cops. Similarly, the cops kill all the different groups at one time or another. But what happens on a much, much higher frequency is those groups killing themselves.

Racial politics works to divide us.

It is the same vein of thought you had, just pulling in some focus. You are correct in that it leads to nothing good.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-08-2024, 01:28 PM)samhain Wrote: I think they have a huge problem with police.  The non-passive ones anyway.  A few of the prominent Unite the Right organizers from the Charlottesville debacle were very active anti-police activists.  Like on terrorist watchlist anti-cop.

Also, there's at least one recent example of Neo Nazis killing cops.

Thank you for addressing the absurdity of that obvious attempt to equate law enforcement to white supremacists.

Quote:Most white supremacists hate the government in all forms.  This probably begins with the ATF (everyone hates the ATF), then various federal branches, then local.  

The ATF is disliked because they are mercurial and arbitrary, two character traits no one likes.  They also like to shoot people's dogs, which absolutely enrages me.   Yes, I am aware local law enforcement can do so as well, it's just not as prominent.  It still enrages me though.

Quote:It's a strange circle.  You walk fall enough left or right and eventually ideologies will run into each other.  It's also likely to get worse with the rising anti-semitic rhetoric on the far left.  Obviously leftists and Nazis hate each other by definition, but they are beginning to find common ground in hating Jews.  It's depressing as hell.

Also very true.  Extremists on both sides have far more in common with each other than rational people in the middle.  Who ever thought they'd see the day the the Ayatollah would praise US college students?

Quote:Personal theory: when demonizing Jews becomes prominent in the extremes of both parties, your country is in decline.  Anti-Semitism is the canary in the coal mine.  Various races are scapegoats all over the world, but Jews are universal scapegoats.  

Then Europe has been in decline for centuries.  I agree with your assertion that antisemitism is a universal, I just don't think its expression is necessarily an indication of decline.  Europe, as noted, was, and may still be, a hotbed of antisemitism all throughout its ascendency to the dominant cultural, economic and military force on the planet.

[HarleyDog]

(06-09-2024, 01:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They also like to shoot people's dogs, which absolutely enrages me.   

[Dill]

(06-05-2024, 09:34 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I’m always curious about the Uncle Tom comments. Maybe that book was banned because none of them read it. He is literally portrayed as Jesus on the cross, complete with a bad guy on each side of him at the end of the book.

And on the way there he is quite subservient to those who abuse him, turning cheek after cheek after cheek. 

There has long been an internal debate in the US Black community about degree and type of resistance to
White domination. So especially as Civil Rights protests began to bear fruit there came a rising backlash against
passive accommodation. 

[*michaelsean*]

(06-09-2024, 07:53 PM)Dill Wrote: And on the way there he is quite subservient to those who abuse him, turning cheek after cheek after cheek. 

There has long been an internal debate in the US Black community about degree and type of resistance to
White domination. So especially as Civil Rights protests began to bear fruit there came a rising backlash against
passive accommodation. 

He was a slave. Most slaves did what they were told and were subservient. Kinda blaming the victim there. As to the bold, well…

[Dill]

(06-09-2024, 10:29 PM)michaelsean Wrote: He was a slave. Most slaves did what they were told and were subservient.  Kinda blaming the victim there.   As to the bold, well…

He was a fictional character, imagined by a northern white woman.

Not blaming the victim. Blaming the slave system.

I don't see myself doing much different to survive in that system.

The points to remember are that 

1) not all slaves went the subservient route.  And it's their behavior we ought to admire.

2) Once slaves were freed, is is not clear at all that passivity and subservience required for 
survival as slaves were useful behaviors in preserving and maintaining that freedom. 
Hence my reference to debates in the Black community post-Civil War. (e.g., B.T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois.)