PSU Students charged in death

[*bfine32*]

Apparently, 18 students are being charged with the death of a fellow student, because he fell down some steps while drunk:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-state-frat-brother-pleas-call-911-unconscious/story?id=47254798

Curious at to folk's thoughts on this.

My initial thoughts:

The guy in the embedded interview in the OP is throwing folks under the bus as fast as he can. "He begged" folks to call 911. Did he not know the number?

What can they be charged with and why?

If they had called 911 as soon as he fell and he still died; should they have been charged?

[GMDino]

(05-07-2017, 12:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Apparently, 18 students are being charged with the death of a fellow student, because he fell down some steps while drunk:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-state-frat-brother-pleas-call-911-unconscious/story?id=47254798

Curious at to folk's thoughts on this.

My initial thoughts:

The guy in the embedded interview in the OP is throwing folks under the bus as fast as he can. "He begged" folks to call 911. Did he not know the number?

What can they be charged with and why?

If they had called 911 as soon as he fell and he still died; should they have been charged?

This is just awful.

I don't know what they can charge them with.  Negligence?

But it goes to larger problem of people willing to do stupid things and to force people to do stupid things to belong to a club.

[Goalpost]

They hazed him. Activities, the gauntlet, like this are forbidden. Yes they are responsible.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

If the student in the interview thought others should have called 911, didn't then he should have called himself. From the interview I can't determine why he didn't. As to what they should be charged with, I don't know.

[*Nately120*]

This is pretty by-the-book stuff, sadly. People are too worried about getting in trouble so they just ignore a situation and convince themselves that everything is going to be OK. A few years ago former NFL QB's Erik Kramer's son died of a heroin overdose because his friends just left him to die a preventable death rather than call for medical help and save him but get in trouble.

When I was in 9th grade one of my classmates showed up to a football game dangerously drunk (it happened on a weekly basis, it seems) and his friends just threw him in a wet yard on a side street and left him there. Me, being a complete loser and one of my loser friends actually flagged down an adult after it was pretty clear that lying in wet grass in October and throwing up wasn't going to make him get better. Turns out he would have been dead within an hour or so had we not done what we did.

That Monday the kid is in the hospital still and my friend and I are being grilled by the principal about where said kid got the booze (we didn't know because we were new to that school and not "in the loop") and we are also being sought out by the supposed friends who left him to die and they are telling us how to beat a polygraph test so we don't incriminate them.

A few days later the drunk kid is back in school. Back to hanging around with his pals and being a total d-bag towards me. I didn't do what I did for some sort of recognition, but this situation taught me a pretty valuable lesson about life, that's for sure. Ok, side rant over.

[*bfine32*]

(05-07-2017, 02:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If the student in the interview thought others should have called 911, didn't then he should have called himself. From the interview I can't determine why he didn't. As to what they should be charged with, I don't know.

This is where I'm at. Seems he's trying to separate himself from the activity. He was there, he participated, he called no one. Seems he's as liable as everyone else.

I'll be interested to see what comes of this trial and what they did to "force" him to drink.

[*bfine32*]

(05-07-2017, 12:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Apparently, 18 students are being charged with the death of a fellow student, because he fell down some steps while drunk:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-state-frat-brother-pleas-call-911-unconscious/story?id=47254798

Curious at to folk's thoughts on this.

My initial thoughts:



What can they be charged with and why?

Well we know now:
Eighteen Penn State students are facing charges: eight for involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and hazing, among other charges; four for reckless endangerment and hazing, among other charges; and six for evidence tampering. The fraternity itself is facing charges, including involuntary manslaughter and hazing.

Quote:If they had called 911 as soon as he fell and he still died; should they have been charged?

I must admit. My initial reaction is that the kid was partly to blame for his death; however, after reading the account I find Involuntary manslaughter to be perhaps too lenient:

His fall was not captured on surveillance cameras, but someone heard it, and when one man went to the top of the basement stairs, he saw Piazza lying facedown at the bottom. In a group message to other fraternity brothers at 11:53 p.m. that night, that man wrote, "Tim Piazza might actually be a problem. He fell 15 feet down a flight of stairs, hair-first, going to need help."


Surveillance video at 10:47 p.m. showed Piazza being carried upstairs by four fraternity brothers; in the video, his body appeared limp, his eyes were closed, he appeared unconscious, and a bruise was visible on his side. Piazza was placed on a couch, and liquid was dumped on his face twice, but he didn't respond either time.


About a half an hour after the fall, at 11:14 p.m., a newly initiated member saw Piazza lying on the couch, looking "horrible," he later told the grand jury. He saw Piazza "thrashing and making weird movements on the couch" and screamed at the fraternity brothers for help, stressing that Piazza needed to go to the hospital because he could have a concussion. One brother shoved the newly initiated member into a wall and said they had it under control.


At 11:25 p.m., the pledge master slapped Piazza three times in the face. At 11:37 p.m., one fraternity brother tackled another brother into the couch, physically landing on top of Piazza.


By 1 a.m., some brothers saw Piazza vomit and twitch on the couch. Three brothers filled a backpack with books and placed it on Piazza to try to keep him from rolling to his back if he passed out. At 1:48 a.m., Piazza rolled off the couch and to the floor, and three brothers picked him up and "slammed him onto the couch." One brother hit Piazza hard once in the abdomen.


By 2:38 a.m., Piazza rolled to the floor and at 3:16 p.m. his legs were moving. At 3:22 p.m., Piazza tried to stand and the backpack came off and he fell back, hitting his head on the hardwood floor. A fraternity brother attempted to shake him for a moment and then left the room.


At 3:46 a.m., Piazza was curled up on the floor in the fetal position with his knees toward his chest. At 3:49 a.m., Piazza positioned himself on his knees, bent over with his elbows on the floor and his head in his hands. At 3:54 a.m., he tried to stand but fell facedown on the floor. At 4:59 a.m., he stood and then fell head first into an iron railing, landing on a stone floor.


"He gets up again and attempts to go to the front door, but before he reaches it he falls head first into the door," the grand jury report says. He later rolled to his side, clutching his abdomen.


At 5:15 a.m., one brother came into the room, stepped over the injured pledge, looked at him and then left the room. At 5:26 a.m., another brother saw Piazza on the floor and walked him to another room but Piazza fell down three steps, and the brother stepped over him on the floor and left him there.


At about 10 a.m., fraternity members found the 19-year-old in the basement lying on his back, breathing heavily and with blood on his face. One brother said Piazza's eyes were half open and he felt cold. Three men carried Piazza's unconscious body upstairs and placed him back on the couch. Surveillance footage showed brothers shaking him and trying to prop him up.

At 10:48 a.m., a fraternity member called 911 but did not say Piazza fell down the stairs the night before.

I cannot imagine the pain a parent would feel reading this account.

[*Nately120*]

^^^^
Man, that is some really sad, yet unsurprising stuff right there. As long as a certain segment of the population associates near-fatal levels of intoxication and doing dangerous stuff to be a rite of passage such things will continue to occur. When I was in college Jackass was big and more than 0 guys were getting drunk and jumping off the roof and/or running directly into walls.

[rezolve11]

(05-07-2017, 05:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is where I'm at. Seems he's trying to separate himself from the activity. He was there, he participated, he called no one. Seems he's as liable as everyone else.

I'll be interested to see what comes of this trial and what they did to "force" him to drink.

I would like to know the final ruling in this case. For me it's hard because the kid was not forced to drink anything. Who is to say it wasn't spiked though? I'm sure more details will come out.

I agree that they should probably have called the police WAY sooner, but in their defense they have probably seen some drunk people do some very dumb things. They have probably awoken in strange places and had random bruises on themselves and wondered what the heck happened the night before. They probably didn't think this was some strange anomaly and that the kid was going to die. 

It's crappy. It's really crappy. They will get charged with something. I wish people didn't do such stupid things. 

[GMDino]

(05-09-2017, 08:43 AM)rezolve11 Wrote: I would like to know the final ruling in this case. For me it's hard because the kid was not forced to drink anything. Who is to say it wasn't spiked though? I'm sure more details will come out.

I agree that they should probably have called the police WAY sooner, but in their defense they have probably seen some drunk people do some very dumb things. They have probably awoken in strange places and had random bruises on themselves and wondered what the heck happened the night before. They probably didn't think this was some strange anomaly and that the kid was going to die. 

It's crappy. It's really crappy. They will get charged with something. I wish people didn't do such stupid things. 

I thought the same thing at first.  But the reality is they didn't call for help because they didn't want to get into trouble themselves.  That will be the bottom line.

[rezolve11]

(05-09-2017, 08:51 AM)GMDino Wrote: I thought the same thing at first.  But the reality is they didn't call for help because they didn't want to get into trouble themselves.  That will be the bottom line.

Yeah you're probably right. That is probably ultimately what was going through their minds. They probably didn't realize it was as bad as it was either. Cause hazing someone but saving their life looks way better than hazing someone and them dying...    just an all around crappy situation. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-09-2017, 08:43 AM)rezolve11 Wrote: I would like to know the final ruling in this case. For me it's hard because the kid was not forced to drink anything. Who is to say it wasn't spiked though? I'm sure more details will come out.

I agree that they should probably have called the police WAY sooner, but in their defense they have probably seen some drunk people do some very dumb things. They have probably awoken in strange places and had random bruises on themselves and wondered what the heck happened the night before. They probably didn't think this was some strange anomaly and that the kid was going to die. 

It's crappy. It's really crappy. They will get charged with something. I wish people didn't do such stupid things. 

He wasn't forced to drink. The alcohol didn't kill him. The head injury did because seizures and respiratory distress are two signs of an intercranial bleed.

[CageTheBengal]

We need 2 places...

A place were people who want to better themselves go to get educated and surround themselves with like minded people.

and

A place were children who are technically adults go to drink away there brain cells and run frats.

Maybe if you survive 2nd place you will realize why you should be at the first but they shouldn't be the same place.

[rezolve11]

(05-09-2017, 10:16 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: He wasn't forced to drink. The alcohol didn't kill him. The head injury did because seizures and respiratory distress are two signs of an intercranial bleed.

I agree with you. 

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2017, 12:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What can they be charged with and why?

If they had called 911 as soon as he fell and he still died; should they have been charged?

Looks like most of them are being charged with "involuntary manslaughter".  This is not an "intentional" killing.  Instead it is a death that is the result of reckless or grossly negligent behavior.  It is generally the lowest level felony.

State has to prove that the actions of the defendants were reckless or negligent and they also have to show that there was a casual link between the behavior and the death.  The negligent behavior would be the failure to call for assitance or the manner in which they attempted to render aid.

Considering that the guy lived for 10 hours after the fall it seems likely that if he had prper treatmetn in a timely manner he could have survived.  But that is one of the things that has to be proven.

They may also claim that the promotion of over-consumption of alcohol by the frat was reckless.  It is one thing to have a party where someone voluntarily drinks too much.  It is another thing to make rules requiring someone to over consume alcohol in order to gain membership.  Although seeking membership is still voluntary the Frat may still be liable for a policy that promotes over consumption.  Don't know if this frat did this on the nioght of the death, but I do know that excessive drnking used to be a very common part of hazing.