Posts: 20,136
Threads: 160
Reputation:
54632
Joined: May 2015
Location: Cincinnati
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 12:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A lot of you people clearly don't understand the purpose of our criminal justice system. The goal is not just to punish criminals. The goal is to prevent crime and protect innocent citizens from crime.
It is easy for you guys who are not victims to say "Who cares how many people are the victim of crimes, we cxan just build more jails" But I work in the criminal justice system and I see the impact of crime on the victims.
So i would rather my tax money go towards preventing crime and protecting innocent citizens instead of just building more jails.
No matter how you frame it, paying someone to learn how to not be an anti-social criminal is ludicrous. Is there a number you stop at? $20,000? $50,000? And why 200 people? Why not 1000?.
Offer the counseling. Anyone interested in changing their life can go for free.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 12:32 PM)michaelsean Wrote: No matter how you frame it, paying someone to learn how to not be an anti-social criminal is ludicrous.
Even if it reduces crime and saves the taxpayer money?
Would you agree with it then?
There are lots of costs to crime other than just tax payer money spent on police, courts, and jails. There is a huge cost to the victims and society as a whole that most of you seem to be ignoring.
Posts: 13,473
Threads: 504
Joined: May 2015
Location: South Florida
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 12:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even if it reduces crime and saves the taxpayer money?
Would you agree with it then?
There are lots of costs to crime other than just tax payer money spent on police, courts, and jails. There is a huge cost to the victims and society as a whole that most of you seem to be ignoring.
How about we try some criminal justice reform. Like ending the drug war. And doing what we should be doing for drug offenses ...... Writing a ticket.
None of which involves paying people to be law abiding citizens
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 02:01 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: How about we try some criminal justice reform. Like ending the drug war. And doing what we should be doing for drug offenses ...... Writing a ticket.
None of which involves paying people to be law abiding citizens
Why can't we do both?
The program we are talking about deals exclusively with violent crime. Your ideas address non-violent crime.
BTW why do you keep repeating the blatant lie that this program is about paying people to be law abiding citizens when they get the money even if they break the law again? Why do you always have to fall back on false rhetoric instead of having a legitimate discussion about the issue?
Posts: 13,473
Threads: 504
Joined: May 2015
Location: South Florida
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why can't we do both?
The program we are talking about deals exclusively with violent crime. Your ideas address non-violent crime.
BTW why do you keep repeating the blatant lie that this program is about paying people to be law abiding citizens when they get the money even if they break the law again? Why do you always have to fall back on false rhetoric instead of having a legitimate discussion about the issue?
Oh so we are also paying them to break laws. That makes it better 
It's hilarious that you think that statement actually strengthens your position.
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 02:15 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Oh so we are also paying them to break laws. That makes it better
It's hilarious that you think that statement actually strengthens your position.
My position is so strong that I don't have to lie about it like you keep doing. generally when people keep lying it is proof that they don't have a very strong argument.
Also you keep refusing to acknowledge that the program is working and have not yet given one reason why you oppose a program that saves citizens from being victims of violent crimes.
Posts: 20,136
Threads: 160
Reputation:
54632
Joined: May 2015
Location: Cincinnati
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My position is so strong that I don't have to lie about it like you keep doing. generally when people keep lying it is proof that they don't have a very strong argument.
Also you keep refusing to acknowledge that the program is working and have not yet given one reason why you oppose a program that saves citizens from being victims of violent crimes.
Working is a bit subjective at this time. 21% have committed a gun crime and 16% have been shot. That's the ones who were caught. What percentage would have committed a gun crime or been shot without the program?
And according to the article, you don't get paid if you get in trouble.
Quote:Under the bill, city officials would identify up to 200 people a year who are considered at risk of either committing or becoming victims of violent crime. Those people would be directed to participate in behavioral therapy and other programs. If they fulfill those obligations and stay out of trouble, they would be paid.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 02:44 PM)michaelsean Wrote: And according to the article, you don't get paid if you get in trouble.
It is a one time payment. They don't have to pay anything back if they get in trouble after they get the money. And. finally, even if they do stay out of trouble they don't get the money if they don't complete the program. the stipend is for the program, not for staying out of trouble.
It is not an ongoing program that pays people on a regular basis to stay pout of trouble. The headline is just framed that way to trick the rubes.
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 02:44 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Working is a bit subjective at this time. 21% have committed a gun crime and 16% have been shot. That's the ones who were caught. What percentage would have committed a gun crime or been shot without the program?
The numbers could have been cooked a little to make it look better because they are only talking about "gun crimes" but in general about 2/3rds of all prisoners released from a state prison will get arrested again for a new crime within 3 years.
Posts: 13,473
Threads: 504
Joined: May 2015
Location: South Florida
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My position is so strong that I don't have to lie about it like you keep doing. generally when people keep lying it is proof that they don't have a very strong argument.
Also you keep refusing to acknowledge that the program is working and have not yet given one reason why you oppose a program that saves citizens from being victims of violent crimes.
The only thing strong in your position is that you love giving away other people's money to pay degenerates to live like they are supposed.
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(02-04-2016, 03:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The only thing strong in your position is that you love giving away other people's money to pay degenerates to live like they are supposed.
And you love giving away other peoples money to provide food and housing for criminals.
The difference between us is that I care about the potential victims of crime, and saving taxpayers money.
|
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
