Paris under attack

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-17-2015, 11:30 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Sure what country are you going to set me up in?  

Since refugees get a choice I will take Australia.   I can't do the cold haha

Be sure to complain if the conditions aren't satisfactory. Who cares about food and water, you need to be able to post on this message board daily. 

[StLucieBengal]

(11-18-2015, 01:44 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Be sure to complain if the conditions aren't satisfactory. Who cares about food and water, you need to be able to post on this message board daily. 

Yea VD.... No dial up Internet. I want great internet and lots of cash . Just like the invading force is demanding from the Germans.

[Bengalzona]

(11-17-2015, 06:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Taking them in a mistake.   Especially when Saudi Arabia takes 0.  

They won't be happy here anyway.   We live a western life, they do not, let them go where they are comfortable .  


If I fled here I would go to a country I was comfortable.   Canada, UK, Australia.  I wouldn't be forcing my way into anywhere in the Middle East where they obviously live a different life.

An interesting article on Saudi Arabia and ISIL:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-16-2015, 04:33 PM)Benton Wrote: Agreed on all points.

To add, I don't think taking in refugees is going to make that process any easier or quicker. That's not to say I don't think we should take in refugees. But until every country in the Middle East can make this change (secularism), you're going to have the problem. If we just shelter the people who are fed up with it, you're dragging the process out.

This right here......in this country, we say the Christians need to "get over it" when it comes to hot button topics involving their clashes with belief structure and civil liberties (as should be the case)....but we need to "understand" the culture of the many divisions of Islam, while they kill each other and other Christians over it.  Seems like a double standard to me.....looks to me like they need to get over it, and sit down and talk and put an end to this centuries old pissing match.

I realize the way politics of recent times has further added to the destabilization, but lets not kid ourselves, they have been warring in this region since around the dawn of time.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-17-2015, 03:00 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: While I am a fan of the idea, it is unlikely they would stay.
There are many interviews where refugees were not satisfied with their housing (in nice solid buildings vs. tents) and even whined that the internet being provided was too slow.
Gratitude is apparently not a strong suit, with many.
But, to be fair, it seems in short supply throughout most cultures anymore.
:snark:

That's cause they were given a chance to emigrate to other countries. Take that away and the tents might seem pretty nice.

(11-17-2015, 03:59 PM)Benton Wrote: For some background...

http://www.ushmm.org/confront-genocide/cases/syria



What you're advocating (setting up camps at the edge of Syria) is basically putting the people being killed in one place really close to military troops, and hoping Assad and IS just leave them alone.

I understand that, and I'd want them protected by a military force as well.

(11-17-2015, 08:09 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: There were camps set-up. On the Syrian side of the border with Turkey. Tent camps. And the people hoped to return to their homes. But this was a problem, as the article Benson posted mentioned: It gave the extremist rebels a convenient grouped-together target out in the open to terrorize. Also, tent camps in the desert are living nightmare after several weeks of several thousand people living close together. Little food, little water, poor sanitation, no organization, crime, disease, no medicine, etc. Think concentration camps, but with tents. These refugees have been living in camps like that for several years now. Their homes are gone. Most of the Syrian cities in the combat zone (and it is a wide combat zone) look like the pictures you see in the history books of Dresden or Berlin in WWII. Also, these are civilians. They generally don't have any weapons, and they wouldn't know what to do with them if they did. ISIL, Assad's troops and the Free Syrian Army are battle-hardened veterans now. They know what they are doing. You put these people out there with guns and tell them to fight ISIL, you might as well just shoot them in the heads yourself.

We finally convinced Turkey (and it was not easy) to let the refugees cross into their border. At least this way, they were somewhat safe from ISIL. ISIL does not want to risk drawing Turkey against them directly. Turkey is a member of NATO and has a modern army. Plus, they are immediately next door and could move directly with short supply lines. For their part, Turkey doesn't want to get involved much because: 1) Syria is a sovereign country and a neighbor. Most other countries in the world still recognize sovereignty, even if we don't. 2) ISIL is actually helping Turkey indirectly by fighting the Kurds and keeping them occupied. While the Kurds are fighting ISIL, there is no talk of starting a Kurdish nation (especially in Turkey's Kurd minority).

So millions of refugees crossed the border into Turkey, where they were immediately placed into... tent camps. Turkey has a modern army, but they are still a poor country. They don't have the resources to take care of this many refugees. And they wouldn't want to even if they did have the resources. The refugees were now safe from ISIL, but they were still stuck in these hellish camps. They can't go home. Turkey won't let them immigrate. If you are in that situation, what is your future (especially if you are female and have children)?

This is where Germany and some other European countries step in. Europe, like many western countries, has been experiencing reduced birthrates for several decades. Their workforce-age population has declined. But their older population has increased. In some countries, they relaxed immigration standards so that foreign workers could come in and fill the workforce, particularly the lower menial type jobs (the jobs we typically want Mexicans and other Latin American illegals to do for us here). A lot of people from former Eastern Bloc countries took advantage of this after the fall of the Soviet Union. When the refugees found out that countries like Germany and Sweden would accept them, they made a beeline for those countries. Unfortunately, there are a dozen or more countries in between that they have to go through to get from Turkey to Germany or Sweden. And those countries are generally not so helpful.

Totally aware that they would need protection. The military could be a UN thing, so that any attacks would be retaliated by the UN led coalition.

What I posted was just an idea, that we can expand on.
I would want the emigrants to be broken up into groups.
Families
Women and Children
Men

Each of these would also have 2 levels, those that have been cleared and the new people coming in are on the outside, until they are cleared as well.

At this point, we either decide to take out enemies so that they can return and start to rebuild their homes (with help of course) or we can begin to establish a new city for them to live in.

If we decide to establish a new city, then we start working on it, obviously the man power is here, they just need the supplies and knowledgeable people from the UN.

We have to remember, the refugees are demoralized and idle people cause trouble. Keep them busy and tired and working towards their future.

There is a lot more to add to this, but this is a good start.

[Belsnickel]

(11-18-2015, 01:20 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: This right here......in this country, we say the Christians need to "get over it" when it comes to hot button topics involving their clashes with belief structure and civil liberties (as should be the case)....but we need to "understand" the culture of the many divisions of Islam, while they kill each other and other Christians over it.  Seems like a double standard to me.....looks to me like they need to get over it, and sit down and talk and put an end to this centuries old pissing match.

I realize the way politics of recent times has further added to the destabilization, but lets not kid ourselves, they have been warring in this region since around the dawn of time.

I don't think anyone on this board, and most people in this country that knew anything about the situation over there, would disagree that there need to be changes over in the Middle East, and a movement towards secularism and a greater concern for human rights. However, the issue is that our involvement in the region has pushed them away from that. I've mentioned before that Muslim, Arabic women enjoyed greater freedoms and equality than their western counterparts until about 150 years ago. The colonial activities of the western world pushed the region away from our ideals as we were seen as oppressors, invaders, whatever other word you'd like to use.

We can't jump into the fray and force change on them. It will produce more animosity against the west. The change will have to take place internally. Sure, we can do things like helping them with problems (such as ISIS, disaster recovery, or economic issues) and this can generate good will with the region. This type of thing promotes a better view of the west among the people than they have been dealing with for decades. When we do things like saying we won't accept Muslim refugees and what not, it promotes the agenda of the extremist. It validates with ISIS is saying, which is that there is a war between Islam and the West. That narrative is what ISIS wants because it brings followers into their arms. The people that say we are at war with Islam are helping ISIS and organizations like them every day. We can destroy ISIS and at the same time be compassionate to the rest of the region. If we show compassion for these people then it will make it that much harder for ISIS to be like another phoenix of Islamic extremism.

[GMDino]

Iran before 1979:

http://www.businessinsider.com/iran-before-the-revolution-in-photos-2015-4?op=1

Now part of this was the US forcing the Shah in and "supporting" him of course.

Iraq before 1980:

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazing-pictures-of-peaceful-iraq-2014-6

Afghanistan:

http://www.businessinsider.com/astonishing-photos-of-prewar-afghanistan-show-everyday-life-in-peaceful-kabul-2013-2?op=1

War is hell. Religious wars never end.

[Benton]

(11-18-2015, 01:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: This right here......in this country, we say the Christians need to "get over it" when it comes to hot button topics involving their clashes with belief structure and civil liberties (as should be the case)....but we need to "understand" the culture of the many divisions of Islam, while they kill each other and other Christians over it.  Seems like a double standard to me.....looks to me like they need to get over it, and sit down and talk and put an end to this centuries old pissing match.

I realize the way politics of recent times has further added to the destabilization, but lets not kid ourselves, they have been warring in this region since around the dawn of time.

As much as I hate to say it, they need a dictator. Removing Saddam was one of the worst things we could do for that region. He did horrible things to people, even his own, but it prevented them from doing horrible things to each other on a larger scale. They need several decades of that kind of stability and understanding that Sunni and Shiite and Christian and Jew can all live in one place and get along.

[Bengalzona]

(11-18-2015, 02:19 PM)Benton Wrote: As much as I hate to say it, they need a dictator. Removing Saddam was one of the worst things we could do for that region. He did horrible things to people, even his own, but it prevented them from doing horrible things to each other on a larger scale. They need several decades of that kind of stability and understanding that Sunni and Shiite and Christian and Jew can all live in one place and get along.

Just like pimps, despots don't get no props for the good services they provide.


It hard bein' da king!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2015, 01:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't think anyone on this board, and most people in this country that knew anything about the situation over there, would disagree that there need to be changes over in the Middle East, and a movement towards secularism and a greater concern for human rights. However, the issue is that our involvement in the region has pushed them away from that. I've mentioned before that Muslim, Arabic women enjoyed greater freedoms and equality than their western counterparts until about 150 years ago. The colonial activities of the western world pushed the region away from our ideals as we were seen as oppressors, invaders, whatever other word you'd like to use.

We can't jump into the fray and force change on them. It will produce more animosity against the west. The change will have to take place internally. Sure, we can do things like helping them with problems (such as ISIS, disaster recovery, or economic issues) and this can generate good will with the region. This type of thing promotes a better view of the west among the people than they have been dealing with for decades. When we do things like saying we won't accept Muslim refugees and what not, it promotes the agenda of the extremist. It validates with ISIS is saying, which is that there is a war between Islam and the West. That narrative is what ISIS wants because it brings followers into their arms. The people that say we are at war with Islam are helping ISIS and organizations like them every day. We can destroy ISIS and at the same time be compassionate to the rest of the region. If we show compassion for these people then it will make it that much harder for ISIS to be like another phoenix of Islamic extremism.

I agree....the outcome of WW1 has more to do with all of this than anything.  To me, the big issue in the Middle East, is a lack of strong government, and those that are strong seem to be nuts.  Another thing that irks me.....why isn't Saudi Arabia taking on some of these refugees?  What is Dubai's stance?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2015, 02:19 PM)Benton Wrote: As much as I hate to say it, they need a dictator. Removing Saddam was one of the worst things we could do for that region. He did horrible things to people, even his own, but it prevented them from doing horrible things to each other on a larger scale. They need several decades of that kind of stability and understanding that Sunni and Shiite and Christian and Jew can all live in one place and get along.

Halleluja......

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2015, 09:44 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: An interesting article on Saudi Arabia and ISIL:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Interesting indeed.....I wonder what would happen if Baptists fought Catholics like this.....or certain Temples of Buddhists revolted against others.....or if Hindus became so divided over Vishnu and Krishna? What would the world view on that be? The more I learn, the more I hold to the conviction that they need an Iron Fist over there from within.  It's like a bunch of arguing children.

[Vas Deferens]

(11-18-2015, 02:23 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree....the outcome of WW1 has more to do with all of this than anything.  To me, the big issue in the Middle East, is a lack of strong government, and those that are strong seem to be nuts.  Another thing that irks me.....why isn't Saudi Arabia taking on some of these refugees?  What is Dubai's stance?

Amen.  Just shows how little influence the US actually has in Saudi Arabia.  Get Bush and his boys over there to have a site down with families best business buddies.  

Specifically, this is what really grinds my gears on that subject:

Quote:


As Saudi Arabia continued to face criticism from world leaders for not taking in enough refugees fleeing war in Syria, the news station TeleSUR discovered that the nation has more than 100,000 empty, air-conditioned tents that could be used to house refugees. The tents, used only a few days a year in the town of Mina for hajj pilgrims, remained unused, as the nation's leaders insisted they are doing all they can for refugees.
......

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2015, 03:00 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Amen.  Just shows how little influence the US actually has in Saudi Arabia.  Get Bush and his boys over there to have a site down with families best business buddies.  

Specifically, this is what really grinds my gears on that subject:

Abso-freakin-lutely.....I've read the same things, and Bush and the gang are so close with the Saudis.....get that shit handled Georgey....we're still paying for your bennies and security details after all.....

[StLucieBengal]

(11-18-2015, 09:44 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: An interesting article on Saudi Arabia and ISIL:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Very interesting.... Thanks for posting

[StLucieBengal]

http://time.com/4117119/paris-attacks-marine-le-pen/

Quote:Marine Le Pen est la Présidente du Front National.
'Too often, we have confused hospitality with blindness'

For the sixth time in a year, Islamic terrorism has struck France—and this time more viciously than ever before. Since then, from all corners of the world, there have been countless outpourings of friendship, salutation, and support for the admirable courage with which the French people have faced these trials. Everywhere it is sung, the Marseillaise embodies our universal determination, our unwillingness to yield to the barbarism of Islamic fundamentalism. Charles De Gaulle once said “There exists an immemorial covenant between the grandeur of France and the freedom of the world.” I am convinced the world recognizes this truth.

And yet, if the enemies of liberty have decided to attack France with such barbarity, its because over decades our country has forgotten that liberty must be organized, that it must be defended, that it is a kind of power which must be nurtured. To forget that truth weakens freedom.

Liberty is exercised in the context of national community. It is armed with the principles of common sense, principles without hate. It is synonymous with a nation defined by strong borders, defined by our values, defined by our way of life, which is appreciated around the world.

Too often, we have confused hospitality with blindness. Not all of those we’ve opened our doors to have come to France with a love of our way of life. Today, under pressure from a European Union that renders us weaker and less free, France faces a cruel reality: It only takes a dozen terrorists—some French in nationality, but not spirit, and others capitalizing on the poorly managed migrant crisis—to take the lives of at 129 of our countrymen. It is up to us to affirm, without hesitation, that France’s freedom was built over centuries intentionally and collectively. That’s what defines a nation.

From here we must take a series of common-sense steps: We must reinvest in our police forces, our border security, our military. We must reverse a decade of disastrous budgetary decisions. We must reclaim our national borders permanently and rescind French citizenship to dual-national jihadists because they do not deserve to be considered French. We must close radical mosques, which are a site of hate. We must stop welcoming thousands of migrants and regain our national sovereignty.

We must also clarify Islam’s role in France. Our Muslim compatriots must no longer be hostage to radical Islamists. French rule of law and a renewed commitment to secularism will liberate them.

There is more: the threat we face calls us to ally with those who fight fundamentalist Islam. For a long time, I have been calling for a revision of French diplomatic policy in Africa and the Middle East. Let’s stop undercutting sovereign states, as Nicolas Sarkozy did disastrously in Libya in 2011. We need to work with Russia, Syria and Iran as well as other foreign powers including the United States which are fighting radical Islam. Let’s bring to a halt the obsolete cold wars and incestuous relationships with untrustworthy countries—I mean specifically Turkey or Qatar.

France has overcome numerous challenges in its long history. Our capacity to rebound has never failed. Many in the world know that a strong France, faithful to itself and master of its own destiny, is indispensable to world peace. Let us stand together. It is the only way to defeat, once and for-all, fundamentalism and the enemies of liberty.

[*bfine32*]

Brigitte tried to get us on the right path a year ago:

https://youtu.be/Ry3NzkAOo3s

[StLucieBengal]

(11-18-2015, 11:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Brigitte tried to get us on the right path a year ago:

https://youtu.be/Ry3NzkAOo3s

Nice video . Good stuff

[fredtoast]

(11-18-2015, 02:19 PM)Benton Wrote: As much as I hate to say it, they need a dictator. Removing Saddam was one of the worst things we could do for that region. He did horrible things to people, even his own, but it prevented them from doing horrible things to each other on a larger scale.

Iraq was constantly at war with Iran while Saddam was in power.

Not supporting our actions to remove him.  Just pointing out that things were not peaceful with him in charge.

[fredtoast]

(11-18-2015, 02:53 PM)Wyche Wrote: Interesting indeed.....I wonder what would happen if Baptists fought Catholics like this.

You mean like when they were blowing the hell out of Northern Ireland just 20 years ago?