Pelosi, Schumer To Trump: "Let's Debate Border Funds in Private"

[Belsnickel]

(12-13-2018, 09:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: ??
I'm not using CATO Numbers at all here.

There was a CATO study debunking the FAIR numbers. It has been cited in this thread. A legitimate right-wing think tank debunked the racist one.

(12-13-2018, 09:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Look up averages of how much it costs per student in school (K12)
Look up how many Children were born last year to illegal parents.
Look up average cost of a normal child birth in the US.

Do some simple math. Think about the benefits those parents get from their Kids being USC's.

Those numbers are not made, up, are they perfect? No, I'm showing the maxes, what is the real % is the unknown, but I'm going to go high on that side.
Show me some of your numbers where it says they are good for the ecomonmy.
IRS Says there is about $20B unclaimed each year, still doesn't cover the costs of just sending the kids to school.

I don't know everything about all of this, but I do know simple math, Money In <<<<<<<< Money out and thats not good for future generations and a wall will change that to Money In << Money out over time. Isn't that the goal??

It isn't just the unclaimed money from the IRS that offsets this stuff. Sales tax, property tax, payroll taxes, the items they purchase and how that impacts industries, the list could go on and on. There are groups that overstate these things, and groups that understate them, same for costs. There is no consensus on how much undocumented immigrants benefit or burden the economy. It's as simple as that.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2018, 09:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote:  a wall will change that to Money In << Money out over time. Isn't that the goal??

No it will not.  A wall will not be that effective.  You can't compare European countries that had no barriers to the Mexican/US border that already has fences and walls.

They have ladders and ropes in Mexica so a wall will not keep them out.

[fredtoast]

Not all immigrants live off welfare benefits.

Many have jobs and pay taxes. They are consumers who boost demand for products. Some start their own businesses that end up benefitting and growing our economy.

Since 1970 over 90% of all new wealth in the United States has gone to the richest 5 percent. The threat to the middle class is not more poor people. They are not the ones sucking up all the newly created wealth in this country.

[*bfine32*]

(12-13-2018, 09:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not all immigrants live off welfare benefits.

Many have jobs and pay taxes.  They are consumers who boost demand for products.  Some start their own businesses that end up benefitting and growing our economy.

Since 1970 over 90% of all new wealth in the United States has gone to the richest 5 percent.  The threat to the middle class is not more poor people.  They are not the ones sucking up all the newly created wealth in this country.

But 100% of illegal immigrants are here illegally. Any unsubstantiated assertions that they add to the economy cannot change that.

Who kbnows maybe those getting pushed to the back of the line by those that come here illegally could contribute as well. 

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2018, 09:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But 100% of illegal immigrants are here illegally. Any unsubstantiated assertions that they add to the economy cannot change that.

Yes.  We all know this.  The discussion is about what is the best way to handle the problem.

if they are adding as much to the economy as they drain out then why should we spend billions to fix a problem that does not exist?

[*bfine32*]

(12-13-2018, 09:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  We all know this.  The discussion is about what is the best way to handle the problem.

if they are adding as much to the economy as they drain out then why should we spend billions to fix a problem that does not exist?

I thought the discussion was about curbing illegal immigration.

Let's se if you can answer a simple question posed a few times:

Do you lock your doors when you leave your house? 

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2018, 10:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you lock your doors when you leave your house? 

Yes I do.

But if I thought people wanted to come in and fix my plumbing I might not.

[*bfine32*]

(12-13-2018, 10:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I do.

But if I thought people wanted to come in and fix my plumbing I might not.

You probably still would if you thought folks were going to enter your house uninvited and you were a responsible adult.

[Dill]

(12-12-2018, 07:35 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't care if the wall costs $25-200+ Billion to build.
In the long run it will be worth it as the number of Illegals crossing over dwindles to zero and the illegals that are here are caught and sent back or die off etc. Once complete those numbers will sky dive expotentionally as the number of anchor babies drastically dips.

(12-13-2018, 09:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Did you have a Turkey or Ham for Thanksgiving this year?? Got Presents under the tree this year?? This is where the left is out of touch. They are more concerned with pleasing and catering to each ethnic/gender/social group. You know what I don't care about? Who sleeps with who and who marries who, who thinks they were born the wrong sex, your skin color. your religious preference. As long as you are not harming anyone and no one is trying to harm you, then I could care less. All of that has nothing to do with me having a nice honey baked ham for my Xmas dinner, a decent job in a good economy is what makes the majority of people happy.

Everything there is just an opinion piece. Nothing factual, just an attempt to play on emotions an make people feel bad about supporting Trump.

Apparently you COULD care less about the wall and "anchor babies" and such like. 

Having gone to all the trouble of *sigh* re-posting that FAIR Report you have not vetted, and continuing to imagine ways it can still serve as authoritative data, you'd have us believe that a "nice honey baked ham" is all you really care about?

Were Trump supporters happy with a decent  job in a good economy and Christmas ham when Obama was president?

You don't care "who sleeps with whom"; ok so it doesn't matter if the president sleeps with porn stars and pays them off with campaign funds. And you don't care about "skin color" or " religious preference"-- but to the point you also don't care if the president would ban Muslims and cannot condemn white nationalism?  He does some things you don't like--just like Obama did some things his supporters didn't like? 

With whom exactly is "the left" out of touch? Possibly with people who don't "please and cater to each ethnic/gender/social group" while the president insults those groups. 

You want to know how Trump supporters get conned--start with reducing opposition arguments to "just opinion" without actually addressing them. The party of "locker her up" and the ISIS infested Caravan cannot complain that I simply play on emotions when I address the absence of cognitive dissonance their conflicting claims and behaviors.

[Dill]

(12-13-2018, 08:07 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Israel-West Bank: The border wall — actually much more a security fence — was constructed in the wake of the 2001-2002 terror campaign in Israel. Almost immediately, the number of successful terror attacks in the Jewish state dropped by 90%. Indeed, it is Israel to which the Trump administration and wall proponents might turn to resolve one of the main arguments about duplicating the system along the US-Mexican border. After all, Israel has developed anti-tunnel radar and other technology to stymie Hamas (and Hezbollah) terrorist who might try to tunnel. Jerusalem might have developed that technology for Israel’s own security, but it could just as easily be replicated to detect, interdict, and destroy tunnels under the US border.

Morocco-Algeria: Morocco fought a bloody insurgency and terrorist campaign sponsored by Algeria’s and Cuba’s Cold War proxy, the Polisario Front. The Polisario became ineffective, however, after Morocco built its famous 1,700-mile system of sand berms, fences, mine fields, and ditches.

Cyprus: It was the United Nations which built a wall dividing Cyprus between the northern Turkish portion and the remaining Greek section after Turkey invaded and occupied parts of the island nation in 1974. To cite international law as opposed to walls is, therefore, nonsense since the United Nations created the precedent.

India-Pakistan: India and Pakistan fought wars in 1947, 1965, 1971, and 1999, that collectively killed millions of people. The two sides have had a more than three decade-long standoff on the Siachen glacier and several skirmishes elsewhere along the disputed border. Because Pakistani terror groups regularly try to infiltrate and wreak havoc in India, India constructed a border fence and wall system to keep Pakistanis out. That’s a good thing, because nowhere else in the world could a simple border incident so quickly escalate into nuclear war.

Turkey-Syria: Throughout the 1990s, Turkey faced an escalating challenge from the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), a group leading a Kurdish insurgency against the Turkish Army. Indeed, Syria only seriously cracked down on the PKK when Turkey credibly threatened war. Turkey subsequently reinforced the border with fences, mine fields, and no-man’s land, and it worked. The next 15 years was largely quiet. It was only when Turkey’s leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan removed many of the defenses and turned a blind eye to border security that the terrorism problem in Syria—and its subsequent blowback inside Turkey itself—grew so great.

There are other walls out there, of course: Saudi Arabia has just built a wall along its disputed border with Yemen to keep Yemeni-based terrorists out of the Saudi Kingdom. India has a long-standing border fence with Bangladesh to prevent illegal immigration. Hungary is building a fence to protect its borders. Greece maintains a heavily protected border with Turkey. Spain fortifies its enclaves in Africa.

Simply put, if the goal is to protect national security and curtail illegal immigration, the record is clear: walls work.

-----------------------

They can work just fine. The goal of the wall is to stop migrants from coming unwanted to your country and to preserve your Economy.
Again, if anyone has a vaild or more effective way, I'd love to hear it.

Gosh, OtherMike, I wish you would look a bit more deeply into some of these examples of "successful" walls and what they are meant to do.

No doubt we could reduce border crossings with minefields and kill-on-sight zones.  There is no "long-standing border fence" the length of the bengladeshi-India border which "works" and offers a model of "success" for the U.S.  WTF?  There is a partial fence, which works about as well as US border fences, and a very different relation between the countries involved.

The wall on Cyprus is not between a first and third world nations, with jobs on one side and dirt poor unemployed on the other. That's why it "works."    Walls on the West Bank are meant to keep people in, to separate them from their own land as Israelis settle it. Imagine illegal immigrants walling Americans from their own land. The southern border fence between Egypt and Israel was meant to contend with a high of 16,000 border crossings in a year, mostly over open and easily monitored sand. 150 miles. The Israelis themselves say that policy as much as fencing has to do with reducing crossings there.

This is just a random list of conflict walls meant to manage diverse kinds of conflict with various levels of success, legality and lethality.

So how are all these examples deployed here in the US debate over wall funding?  Is it hoped that the audience will see a list of "successes" without looking beyond the surface?

[jj22]

Do Trump supporters not think they can tunnel under a wall too?

And I tried to get focus on all illegal immigrants, but I can't seem to get Trump supporters to care about anyone but Mexicans. Go figure.

Until we can come up with a fair solution to tackle illegal immigrants, I'm not going to support picking on just one group of people just because folks don't like them.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-13-2018, 09:21 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: There was a CATO study debunking the FAIR numbers. It has been cited in this thread. A legitimate right-wing think tank debunked the racist one.


It isn't just the unclaimed money from the IRS that offsets this stuff. Sales tax, property tax, payroll taxes, the items they purchase and how that impacts industries, the list could go on and on. There are groups that overstate these things, and groups that understate them, same for costs. There is no consensus on how much undocumented immigrants benefit or burden the economy. It's as simple as that.

Yes, but if here legally?? Wouldn't they be able to make more money and not be exploited? We already have enough Uneducated/unskilled workers here in the US to cover most jobs they would do. So by them being exploited, they are actually hurting people here legally in earned income by causing the pay to be reduced for all workers in those fields.

Also they'd be paying the Gov the fees for processing the Visa's/Green Cards so they would be here legally.

So show me how much they contribute to Sales tax/Property tax (I have no idea why it's legal for them to have a home, obviously they are working illegally if they are here illegally). Payroll taxes? SSA? Fed Taxes?? How many get paid cash to avoid all of that?

If there is no consensus, then how can you prove how much they are a help vs a burden? Just because someone says so and you like that opinion so you roll with it?

Links backing up your claims. You seem to have a problem with that. You blurted out USCIS Numbers in another thread, but couldn't provide a link when I disputed  your numbers. Its pointless to have a discussion with out giving me something to read and chew on so I can look at all angles and make the best educated decision possible. And by the way, I have never once said all of them that are here need to be deported, we need to find a way to make them legal workers and go from there to a USC path. The ones with criminal records, no path. Arrest and deport. Seems fair enough right?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-13-2018, 09:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it will not.  A wall will not be that effective.  You can't compare European countries that had no barriers to the Mexican/US border that already has fences and walls.

They have ladders and ropes in Mexica so a wall will not keep them out.

Yes, I can compare them to European countries that use walls/fences to keep people out as examples.
We are not trying to keep people in, but to keep people out. That migrant caravan could be 10k strong, but they aren't going to charge a wall with any real attempt to get over.

Also why do you keep ignoring that we will have people watching for migrants with ropes and ladders?? We just won't need as many agents for that as we would for those driving and monitoring the borders.

Just who exactly is going to be using ropes and ladders? The common migrant? Doubtful.
These so-called walls and fences that we have in place are easily scalable or in the case of the fences, they cut their way thru. Put a real wall in there, show me how easy it is to scale or cut your way thru.


Also you have yet to offer a valid solution to keeping immigrants from coming over the border.

Actually, none of you have provided any method of doing so. Just keep arguing against a wall.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-hungary-fence/hungary-builds-new-high-tech-border-fence-with-few-migrants-in-sight-idUSKBN1692MH

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/235687

The Hungarian Prime Minister's Security Advisor revealed that since the construction of the wall bordering Serbia, the number of immigrants entering Hungary has dropped by 90 percent.

https://visegradpost.com/en/2017/05/15/the-indisputable-success-of-the-hungarian-border-fence/

Hungary – The second fence on the southern border of Hungary is complete. Hungary is now endowed with the most monitored border in Europe, whose effectiveness is indisputable.

Along the 155 km of the border with Serbia, the anti-migrant barrier has been reinforced with a second fence, motion detection systems and thermal cameras, and an asphalted road between the two fences. It took about 15 million euros to erect this second barrier. The cost of mobilizing soldiers and policemen at the border has not yet been established, but the results are there: since 28 March, no one has been able to cross the border illegally.

[*Nately120*]

(12-14-2018, 02:03 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Also you have yet to offer a valid solution to keeping immigrants from coming over the border.

Actually, none of you have provided any method of doing so. Just keep arguing against a wall.

What if we find Americans who knowingly hire illegals and imprison them?  

[jj22]

(12-14-2018, 02:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: What if we find Americans who knowingly hire illegals and imprison them?  

Good point not often argued anymore (wonder why? **cough** Trump Co employing majority illegal immigrants, and his supporters being fine with it).

Why haven't we never fined or ended tax benefits to these companies that continue to hire them? When Romney mentioned Self Deportation, this was one of the ideas thrown about. If they can't get jobs, they won't come.

But many illegal immigrants work for cheap and do jobs Americans even those broke and damn near homeless turn their noses up to. So companies continue to hire them.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2018, 10:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You probably still would if you thought folks were going to enter your house uninvited and you were a responsible adult.

This whole premise shows how biased your opinion is.  You consider every illegal immigrant to be a criminal trying to prey on you.  That is why you compare them all to burglars.  I don't see them all as a threat.  I see many of them as hard working people contributing to our economy.

Now let me ask you a question.  Would you still lock your doors if we removed every illegal immigrant from the United States?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-14-2018, 11:23 AM)jj22 Wrote: Do Trump supporters not think they can tunnel under a wall too?

And I tried to get focus on all illegal immigrants, but I can't seem to get Trump supporters to care about anyone but Mexicans. Go figure.

Until we can come up with a fair solution to tackle illegal immigrants, I'm not going to support picking on just one group of people just because folks don't like them.

Absolutely they can Tunnel under, but there is also Tunnel detection technology, so we can catch some.

LOL Mexicans are not coming thru the South as much as they used to. They fly North (now that they no longer need a Visa to enter Canada as of 2016) and come from that way. The Central/South American Countries come to the Southern Border.

I'm going to guess you are aware that Illegals cross from the US to Canada as well correct?
For the first 3 months of 2018, about 28k left the US to go to Canada. How many are coming to the US from the Canada annually?

And why shouldn't the focus be on Mexican? According to PEW
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/12/03/what-we-know-about-illegal-immigration-from-mexico/

There were 12.0 million immigrants from Mexico living in the United States in 2016, and fewer than half of them (45%) were in the country illegally, according to Pew Research Center estimates. Mexico is the country’s largest source of immigrants, making up 26.6% of all U.S. immigrants.

There were more apprehensions of non-Mexicans than Mexicans at U.S. borders in fiscal year 2017 for the third time on record,

Unauthorized immigrants from Mexico make up at least 75% of the total unauthorized immigrant population in five states. This is the case in New Mexico (91%), Idaho (79%), Arizona (78%), Oklahoma (78%) and Wyoming (77%). In California, Mexicans make up 69% of the state’s unauthorized immigrant population, and they numbered more than 1.5 million in 2016 – the highest total of any state.

-----
So no matter what we do via immigration (in your eyes) we are going to be picking on the Mexicans because they make up half of all of the illegal immigrants in the US.

Can you suggest any means of curbing immigration that would be highly effective and I guess you can't pick on the Mexicans either?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-14-2018, 02:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: What if we find Americans who knowingly hire illegals and imprison them?  

Fining and Jail time for companies and individuals that hire illegals is already a law, obviously it's not working.

Any other ideas?

(12-14-2018, 02:48 PM)jj22 Wrote: Good point not often argued anymore (wonder why? **cough** Trump Co employing majority illegal immigrants, and his supporters being fine with it).

Why haven't we never fined or ended tax benefits to these companies that continue to hire them? When Romney mentioned Self Deportation, this was one of the ideas thrown about. If they can't get jobs, they won't come.

But many illegal immigrants work for cheap and do jobs Americans even those broke and damn near homeless turn their noses up to. So companies continue to hire them.

And no JPP, Trump hires LEGAL immigrants. He's is also using key pieces of the "Self-Deportation" plan that you speak of. And Romney is harsher on immigration than Trump. Romney wants all DACA kids to be deported. Says they don't belong here.

Name the companies that have hired illegals and continue to do so knowingly?

Which jobs?? I bet you that there is Americans already working those jobs as well.

Anyways, my goal it so stem the flow of migrants in and deal with what we have here already.

PS Matt, I read that if the Illegal Immigrants were given the Legal right to work in the US, that the GDP would shoot up 5% Also there is no way we could deport them all, and I'm not for that. We need to give them a way to work legally and a path. No handouts though. Anyone that's used Gov Benefits or been convicted of a crime 2/10/lifetime ban depending on the severity.

[*bfine32*]

(12-14-2018, 04:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This whole premise shows how biased your opinion is.  You consider every illegal immigrant to be a criminal trying to prey on you.  That is why you compare them all to burglars.  I don't see them all as a threat.  I see many of them as hard working people contributing to our economy.

Now let me ask you a question.  Would you still lock your doors if we removed every illegal immigrant from the United States?

uuuuhhhhhmmmmmm...............EVERY illegal immigrant has broken the law. I compared no one to burglars; I simply suggested methods are taken to deter criminal activity. But if someone is motivated enough they will break the law. So let's go with a swing and a miss. 

Yes, I would still lock my doors

[*bfine32*]

(12-12-2018, 08:58 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Yes he handled it poorly. He could easily have had spreadsheets of data backing him up to slam them with and embarrased them.

And yea, Ropes and Ladders is lame. Can't wait for the Dig Tunnels part to kick in. You and I both know it's coming.

(12-13-2018, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Who said a wall would be effective?  They have ladders and ropes in Mexico.  A wall will not be that effective at all..  A huge waste of money.

(12-13-2018, 08:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You literally cannot make this stuff up. 

(12-14-2018, 11:23 AM)jj22 Wrote: Do Trump supporters not think they can tunnel under a wall too?

And I tried to get focus on all illegal immigrants, but I can't seem to get Trump supporters to care about anyone but Mexicans. Go figure.

Until we can come up with a fair solution to tackle illegal immigrants, I'm not going to support picking on just one group of people just because folks don't like them.