Perspectives

[THE Bigzoman]

Rising up against an oppressive government would need to have the killer interested in killing all cops or all government officials.

The shooter made it clear his actions were to spite "white people" and "white officers".

I think the "rise up against government" argument is ******** because Drones>Guns, but I don't see an inconsistency with the argument in this context.

[Belsnickel]

(07-08-2016, 06:01 PM)McC Wrote: This is some people who wanted to kill and considered this a good excuse to do it. I don't think we're talking about freedom fighters here. These are murderers.

This is why I specified that we were going with the assumptions.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-08-2016, 02:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: If you think you can get people to fully and unconditionally do what they are told you are crazy.

Worse, if you think be should ALWAYS  fully and unconditionally do what they are told you are crazier.

Be respectful? Sure!

Follow orders as best you can? Absolutely!

Have it be  fully and unconditionally follow orders or get killed?  Not so much.

At least it's not supposed to be that way here.

Right or wrong, if a cop wants to arrest or detain you, it's going to happen.  If he's going to violate your rights, he's most likely going to violate your rights.  That's just the reality.  If you actively resist, YOU are choosing to put your life at risk.  There are some extraordinarily unqualified/incapable cops who have made horrible decisions.  But that is a very, very small number.

It's safer for everyone to preach cooperation and respect.  The false narrative that racist cops are executing black people is wholly unproductive.  But it's a convenient narrative, because until root socioeconomic causes are addressed people will continue to find correlations that feed the narrative.

[GMDino]

(07-09-2016, 01:19 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Right or wrong, if a cop wants to arrest or detain you, it's going to happen.  If he's going to violate your rights, he's most likely going to violate your rights.  That's just the reality.  If you actively resist, YOU are choosing to put your life at risk.  There are some extraordinarily unqualified/incapable cops who have made horrible decisions.  But that is a very, very small number.

It's safer for everyone to preach cooperation and respect.  The false narrative that racist cops are executing black people is wholly unproductive.  But it's a convenient narrative, because until root socioeconomic causes are addressed people will continue to find correlations that feed the narrative.

i agree with almost everything you wrote there.

But...

Officers ALSO must allow for some wiggle room when dealing with the public.  That's my point.  If a person doesn't go to the ground immediately and follow every order exactly that doesn't mean the officer has to rush to the conclusion that his life is in danger and start shooting.

Someone, anyone, suddenly yelling at you when you are standing ont he street or in a hotel lobby will cause at a minimum a moment of confusion.

That moment seems to leads to these few, poorly trained, officers making life or death decisions.

[GMDino]

Thinking about this again today:

If an assassin took out the President and claimed it was because of his role in increasing the racial problem in America and accused him of trying to destroy the country with his policies...does that fit the hypothetical Matt presented?

(07-08-2016, 12:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Something that is often brought up when gun control arguments are hashed out if the need for the citizenry to be able to rise up against an oppressive government. We don't know all the details about the Dallas shooting as of yet, but the assumption has been made it is reactionary to the recent killings of black men by police that are being viewed as unjustified. If this is the case, what could be argued is that the incident in Dallas last night is an example of people exercising their 2nd Amendment rights to rise up against an oppressive government. 

It is often said that one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.