Pfizer vaccine..90 percent

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2020, 06:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Trump lied to the American people about how dangerous the pandemic was.  This caused a lot of people to not take it seriously.  They refused to wear masks or practice social distancing because they did not know how serious of a threat it was.

So the way Trummp handled it made it much worse than it should have been



Because I don't know what regulations he eased.  They may have not had any effect at all.




No he didn't.  Every major pharmaceutical on earth knew they could get rich if they came up with a vaccine.  Trump did nothing to get them started working on a vaccine.

https://www.hhs.gov/coronavirus/explaining-operation-warp-speed/index.html

Quote:To accelerate development while maintaining standards for safety and efficacy, OWS has been selecting the most promising countermeasure candidates and providing coordinated government support.


Protocols for the demonstration of safety and efficacy are being aligned, which will allow the trials to proceed more quickly, and the protocols for the trials will be overseen by the federal government, as opposed to traditional public-private partnerships, in which pharmaceutical companies decide on their own protocols. Rather than eliminating steps from traditional development timelines, steps will proceed simultaneously, such as starting manufacturing of the vaccine at industrial scale well before the demonstration of vaccine efficacy and safety as happens normally. This increases the financial risk, but not the product risk.

Like I aid some will work hard to give Trump credit; while others will work hard to not.

I'm just glad we're making progress and it appears at a very rapid pace. 

[hollodero]

(11-11-2020, 05:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: People criticize his actions on this and a lot called for more lockdowns and things.

There's no reason to think that any other administration would have for even could have handled this as well as the Trump administration.

There's no reason to think otherwise either.

(11-11-2020, 05:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Vaccines usually take years to complete, so how can you even pretend like Trump's easing regulations and things didn't help a lot?

Well, there was some increased sense of urgency this time around, wouldn't you agree? And profit. And maybe, sure, an eased regulation that let's hope was actually unnecessary also helped speed things up significantly, but I would not know about that. If so, credit for not being completely ignorant about an unnecessary regulation in times of crisis. I'd give him that much.

(11-11-2020, 05:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Trump set this all into motion, even if they weren't in the official government program, so anyone refusing to give Trump credit is obviously just biased with hate.

On the risk of being all divisive again, I can not let this assertion stand unrefuted.
I don't refuse to give him credit because of hate. I refuse to do so for I don't really see a clear-cut reason to praise him; but for sure more importantly, I refuse to do so because Trump overall was just awful regarding this pandemic. He mocked mask-wearing, he lied about the reality of things, he claimed it is vanishing, that the US turned a corner, he implied it's harmless, used his own son and himself as an example for that, he lied about vaccine timetables, he lied about mortality, he deliberately downplayed the threat - and this is an ongoing list - and with all this recklessness he endangered many people, very much including high-risk individuals like yourself. And this is a fair statement that has nothing to do with hate.

For see, you have an additional number of deniers now, of idiots that do not wear masks, do not social distance, behave irresponsibly, party and group up and spread the virus around, and make this situation all the more dangerous and dire. And for a large part, it's because they listen to Donald Trump.
I have zero incentive to applaud him on how he handled Covid.

[*michaelsean*]

God who cares if he gets some credit or not? The campaign is over. Nobody will be helped or hurt by him getting credit or not.

[GMDino]

(11-11-2020, 09:20 PM)michaelsean Wrote: God who cares if he gets some credit or not?  The campaign is over. Nobody will be helped or hurt by him getting credit or not.

Same reason it was important before the election:  Trump's ego and the ego of his supporters who need to believe they back a winner.

There wasn't that much of a difference between what he said and Fauci said but any time Trump says something he always has to add biggest, fastest, best, etc to it that turns some people off.  Fauci was more realistic.  Fortunately these tests that came back are good.  We're certainly not out of the woods yet anyway.

[BFritz21]

(11-11-2020, 06:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: There's no reason to think otherwise either.

The Swine Flu disaster that the Obama Administration messed up.

And this one is much more deadly.

Yes, there is reason to think otherwise.

(11-11-2020, 06:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, there was some increased sense of urgency this time around, wouldn't you agree? And profit. And maybe, sure, an eased regulation that let's hope was actually unnecessary also helped speed things up significantly, but I would not know about that. If so, credit for not being completely ignorant about an unnecessary regulation in times of crisis. I'd give him that much.

Exactly.  

Urgency which Trump kicked into gear, and how can you say that you hope it was unnecessary?  How has it not proven to be necessary already?

Again, instead of addressing his accomplishments, you give him a backhanded compliment and refuse to acknowledge how good this looks like it's going to end up being.  

Bravo.

(11-11-2020, 06:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: On the risk of being all divisive again, I can not let this assertion stand unrefuted. 
I don't refuse to give him credit because of hate. I refuse to do so for I don't really see a clear-cut reason to praise him; but for sure more importantly, I refuse to do so because Trump overall was just awful regarding this pandemic. He mocked mask-wearing, he lied about the reality of things, he claimed it is vanishing, that the US turned a corner, he implied it's harmless, used his own son and himself as an example for that, he lied about vaccine timetables, he lied about mortality, he deliberately downplayed the threat - and this is an ongoing list - and with all this recklessness he endangered many people, very much including high-risk individuals like yourself. And this is a fair statement that has nothing to do with hate.

He didn't lie.  He was trying to keep people from panicking and also trying to figure out how to deal with this because it was unprecedented.

It was wrong for him to mock wearing masks at firsts, but, again, no one knew much about this.  He has wisened up and started wearing a mask.

Again, he downplayed it because no one knew much about it, and he was trying to keep the people calm.

(11-11-2020, 06:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: For see, you have an additional number of deniers now, of idiots that do not wear masks, do not social distance, behave irresponsibly, party and group up and spread the virus around, and make this situation all the more dangerous and dire. And for a large part, it's because they listen to Donald Trump. 
I have zero incentive to applaud him on how he handled Covid.

He has wisened up, and people who aren't following the orders are just morons.

What about the BLM gatherings and the protests?

[hollodero]

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: The Swine Flu disaster that the Obama Administration messed up.

I'm not that versed on this topic, could you provide me with some examples of things the Obama admin did disastrously wrong back then? For I can't quite see it. As far as I can tell, there were tests within a few days and a vaccine within the year. The public was briefed minaciously. The swine flu ended up killing around 12.500 people total, and not to appear heartless, this is more within the realms of a normal flu. They did not use masks and distancing and lockdowns in their response, and nobody would have accepted such measures. So yeah, I don't know, what went so horribly wrong?

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Exactly.  

Urgency which Trump kicked into gear, and how can you say that you hope it was unnecessary?  How has it not proven to be necessary already?

The urgency had nothing to do with Trump, meaning it would have been deemed urgent without him too.

When I said "unnecessary", it was in regards to the regulatory hurdles that Trump allegedly or maybe really removed. I said I hope these regulations were indeed unnecessary. Wouldn't want him to cut a necessary regulation, eg. necessary for the vaccine being safe. That's what I meant.

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: He didn't lie.

Yeah he did. He claimed that the US has rounded a corner, or that the numbers are going way down, or that the pandemic is getting under control, when these things by no measures did take place. He claimed that 99% of cases are completely harmless, which is demonstrably untrue. He falsely claimed the US has the lowest mortality in the world and the lowest case fatality rate in the world. He accused the media of overblowing the issue, to hurt him and to keep voter turnout low, and insisted that as soon as election day is over, no one will talk about Covid any longer. In the debates he claimed that 85% of people wearing masks catch the virus, which is an absurd lie. He claimed everybody can get a test at a time where this wasn't even remotely true. He claimed the US outpaces South Korea in testing, when the US at the time demonstrably lagged way behind South Korea and many other countries, he made similar lies repeatedly. He then blamed increased testing for rising case numbers, when it was in fact of course the virus further spreading around. He claimed he knew it was a pandemic long before anyone else did - which is not important, but utterly ridiculous - even more so for he also repeatedly suggested it will go away, in the summer, in the heat, like a miracle. He lied about vaccine timetables and promised a vaccine at totally unrealistic dates. He promoted an ineffective drug and claimed experts only call it ineffective because they are not Trump fans. He almost bluntly accused nurses to steal masks on a large scale, and even suggested doctors make up covid cases to get more money. This is in no way a complete list. But all of those are lies, lies, lies.

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: It was wrong for him to mock wearing masks at firsts, but, again, no one knew much about this.  He has wisened up and started wearing a mask.

He still felt it necessary to mock Biden for his mask-wearing in the debates. When he did so the first time, every expert recommended masks already. You already knew that. We all knew that.

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Again, he downplayed it because no one knew much about it, and he was trying to keep the people calm.

What do you mean, no one knew much? We knew it was raging in Europe, we knew how dangerous it was, and who else demonstrably knew? Trump. He told Bob Woodward on tape back in April. He said it "is a killer" and "deadly stuff", that it is dangerous, highly contageous, spreads through the air, also affects younger people - he knew all that.
Later than that interview, he claimed it will go away like a miracle, is not deadlier than the flu, and encouraged protesters to "liberate!" states that took measures against Covid.

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: He has wisened up, and people who aren't following the orders are just morons.

Has he though? You know who Scott Atlas is? Apparently the adviser that has Trump's ear now, much more so than Fauci, that promotes "herd immunity", you heard the concept? Let everone get sick and protect the vulnerable people, that's his plan, widely seen as disastrous and very deadly. That is who shapes Trump's covid policies today. Is that "wise"?

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: What about the BLM gatherings and the protests?

Yeah, that is not ideal either, no question about it. I never claimed it were exclusively people listening to Trump that behaved irresponsibly. What I'm saying is that Trump's words add quite a large amount of people to the list of folks that behave irresponsibly.

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2020, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: He didn't lie. 

This is a perfect example of why it is impossible to deal with some Trump supporters.

Trump has admitted he lied.  We have tape recordings of him saying it.

He claims he did it to avoid a panic, but that makes no sense.  When we have a deadly pandemic we need the truth to deal with it properly.  All his lies did was cause people to disregard safety measures like masks and social distancing that would have significantly reduced the spread of the virus.

And he didn't just lie.  he actually mocked people for wearing masks at the same time that he knew the virus was much more deadly than he was telling us.

[*bfine32*]

(11-12-2020, 11:15 AM)hollodero Wrote: I'm not that versed on this topic, could you provide me with some examples of things the Obama admin did disastrously wrong back then? For I can't quite see it. As far as I can tell, there were tests within a few days and a vaccine within the year. The public was briefed minaciously. The swine flu ended up killing around 12.500 people total, and not to appear heartless, this is more within the realms of a normal flu. They did not use masks and distancing and lockdowns in their response, and nobody would have accepted such measures. So yeah, I don't know, what went so horribly wrong?

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/04/joe-biden-contain-h1n1-virus-232992

Quote:“I wouldn’t go anywhere in confined places right now," Biden said. "It’s not that it’s going to Mexico, it’s that you are in a confined aircraft. When one person sneezes, it goes everywhere through the aircraft.”

Airlines angrily accused Biden of fearmongering. Media reports noted that Biden’s pessimism contrasted sharply with the reassurances President Barack Obama had given a day earlier, when he said there was no need to panic even as he declared a national health emergency. In a matter of hours, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and Deputy Secretary of State Jack Lew were summoned to the White House and assigned to clean up the mess Biden made: “Nip it in the bud,” LaHood said, recalling their instructions.
By 4 p.m., the three officials were hosting a news conference and backing away from the vice president’s words.

The snafu was the first of many scrambles and setbacks by the Obama administration in its initial response to the swine flu. POLITICO interviewed almost two dozen people, including administration officials, members of Congress and outsiders who contended with the administration’s response, and they described a litany of sadly familiar obstacles: vaccine shortfalls, fights over funding and sometimes contradictory messaging.

“It is purely a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history,” Ron Klain, who was Biden’s chief of staff at the time, said of H1N1 in 2019. “It had nothing to do with us doing anything right. It just had to do with luck. If anyone thinks that this can’t happen again, they don’t have to go back to 1918, they just have to go back to 2009, 2010 and imagine a virus with a different lethality, and you can just do the math on that.”

Over the course of a year, the H1N1 flu infected 60 million Americans, but claimed only 12,469 lives, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The only thing they did right was be around a crisis that wasn't as deadly.

[GMDino]

(11-12-2020, 12:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/04/joe-biden-contain-h1n1-virus-232992

The only thing they did right was be around a crisis that wasn't as deadly.

You actually right.  The Obama administration fumbled this.  Then what they did was admit a mistake, learn from it and work toward a system to prevent such mistakes in the future in case a more deadly virus struck.

Then your boy dismantled that system, "played down" the virus and pretended everything would be ok...like a miracle.  And STILL claims he didn't do anything wrong with the response.

So I'm not sure it's as big a defense of Trump as you think it is.

[hollodero]

(11-12-2020, 12:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/04/joe-biden-contain-h1n1-virus-232992

The only thing they did right was be around a crisis that wasn't as deadly.

 alright, I feel educated on that. I don't think your statement is totally fair, all things considered. But sure, it seems they were not mistake-free.

Not every point made against Trump is automatically a point pro Biden. This one might not be.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

It will be interesting to see the anti-capitalists/systemic racism crowd explain away the US developing a vaccine at such a rapid pace because of, you know, capitalism.

[Belsnickel]

(11-12-2020, 01:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It will be interesting to see the anti-capitalists/systemic racism crowd explain away the US developing a vaccine at such a rapid pace because of, you know, capitalism.

Eh, I could, but I'm lazy. Also, my critiques of capitalism are often in that it is inherently exploitative and relies on that exploitation to be productive, not that it doesn't help innovation.

[GMDino]

(11-12-2020, 01:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It will be interesting to see the anti-capitalists/systemic racism crowd explain away the US developing a vaccine at such a rapid pace because of, you know, capitalism.

Oh Capitalism!  I thought it was the government funding Operation Warpspeed!



Please pick a side!

[*bfine32*]

(11-12-2020, 12:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: You actually right.  The Obama administration fumbled this.  Then what they did was admit a mistake, learn from it and work toward a system to prevent such mistakes in the future in case a more deadly virus struck.

Then your boy dismantled that system, "played down" the virus and pretended everything would be ok...like a miracle.  And STILL claims he didn't do anything wrong with the response.

So I'm not sure it's as big a defense of Trump as you think it is.

It wasn't to defend Trump and as a disclaimer not every criticism of Biden moving forward is an attempt to defend Trump. Try to get him out of your head.

It was to support Brad's assertion that the Obama admin made mistakes in regards to handling a contagious disease and Biden was a large part of that mistake.

Of course you want to assume he learned and will never make another, but that's just an opinion.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-12-2020, 01:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh Capitalism!  I thought it was the government funding Operation Warpspeed!



Please pick a side!

You'll have to find where I made a contrary argument on this subject first for me to be able to do that.  

[hollodero]

(11-12-2020, 01:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It will be interesting to see the anti-capitalists/systemic racism crowd explain away the US developing a vaccine at such a rapid pace because of, you know, capitalism.

Well, I guess most people do not think capitalism is just bad and only bad. I for one don't, I also don't think it is just good and only wonderful. But there certainly are lots of merits. Other things, I will remain critical of them still.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-12-2020, 02:20 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, I guess most people do not think capitalism is just bad and only bad. I for one don't, I also don't think it is just good and only wonderful. But there certainly are lots of merits. Other things, I will remain critical of them still.

That's because you're a reasonable person.  There is a very large faction in this country that believe capitalism is inherently evil and exploitative.  I am certainly not blind to its flaws, and also believe laissez faire would be an unmitigated disaster.  However, it's impossible for a logical person to deny that the vast, vast majority of advancements have come from capitalist societies.  This is not a coincidence.

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2020, 01:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It will be interesting to see the anti-capitalists/systemic racism crowd explain away the US developing a vaccine at such a rapid pace because of, you know, capitalism.

This vaccine proves there is no systemic racism in the United States?  


And I am still waiting for the anti-socialists crowd to call for the end of free public education.  I am guessing some of the people who helped develop this vaccine went to public schools.

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2020, 02:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's because you're a reasonable person.  There is a very large faction in this country that believe capitalism is inherently evil and exploitative.  I am certainly not blind to its flaws, and also believe laissez faire would be an unmitigated disaster.  However, it's impossible for a logical person to deny that the vast, vast majority of advancements have come from capitalist societies.  This is not a coincidence.

Please define "large faction".

Exactly what percentage of the population are you claiming want to completely do away with capitalism and go to a pure socialist economy where the government owns and controls all the means of production?  And what is your source for your opinion.

From what I see almost everyone wants to keep a capitalist economy with expanded social programs.  But the rigth-wing media refers to a capitalist economy with expanded social programs as "socialism" just to scare the rubes.

[Belsnickel]

(11-12-2020, 02:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's because you're a reasonable person.  There is a very large faction in this country that believe capitalism is inherently evil and exploitative.  I am certainly not blind to its flaws, and also believe laissez faire would be an unmitigated disaster.  However, it's impossible for a logical person to deny that the vast, vast majority of advancements have come from capitalist societies.  This is not a coincidence.

I don't believe it is is inherently exploitative, that is just a fact. It only works because people are not compensated for the full value of their work. If they were, there would be no profit.