Player gets booed for upholding personal convictions

[*PhilHos*]

(06-13-2018, 04:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: No. I would consider a prohibition of putting up such a sign to be a prohibition of putting up the sign. Prohibiting the sign does not prohibit the activity the sign promoted. Applied to your original argument, prohibiting the erection of the Ten Commandments on public property is merely the prohibition of erecting them on public property. It is not a prohibition of the religion(s) which they are perceived as promoting.

And my argument is how is posting them a promotion of a religion and not just a promotion of the 10 Commandments?  As I just said to fred, my original point was to point out that displaying something should not automatically equal the unconsitutional promotion of the religoin that said thing comes from UNLESS you're excluding other religion's symbols from being displayed.

[Griever]

(06-13-2018, 03:44 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Am i right to assume that you're a fan of the NFL? As a fan, you would say you support it in some fashion, yes? By your logic, then, I can also assume you do NOT support the NBA, NHL, MLB, or any other professional sporting league.

The government in America is supposed to a be a goverment OF the people. If there are Christians, there should be no issue in having their iconography on display. Likewise, if there are Jews or Muslims or Hindus or members of any other recognized religion, then their iconography should be allowed to be on display. The argument should be of INCLUSIVENESS not exclusiveness.

Lastly, if allowing the 10 Commandments is a "promotion" of said religion to the exclusion of all others, then wouldn't the outright banning of them also be considered the prohibition of said religion?


Looks like you need your reading comprehension checked. I never said that I think equal rights are special rights. I only pointed out how many have made that argument.

that pesky ol separation of church and state sure gets in the way for christians to understand why the government cant and shouldnt put up displays of the 10 commandments

the butt hurt, the salt, and the tears from conservatives and fundamentals would be in full view if the federal government put up a monument supporting islam

hell, previous guy in the white house had a muslim sounding name, and conservatives and fundies claimed he was a secret muslim agent for 8 years (and counting)

lets just do no religious monuments, because if anything else is up it will just be further evidence that christians are nothing but hypocrites

[Belsnickel]

(06-14-2018, 12:08 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And my argument is how is posting them a promotion of a religion and not just a promotion of the 10 Commandments?  As I just said to fred, my original point was to point out that displaying something should not automatically equal the unconsitutional promotion of the religoin that said thing comes from UNLESS you're excluding other religion's symbols from being displayed.

Which I don't disagree with entirely. The Ten Commandments do exist in relief at the Supreme Court, for example, because of their importance in the history of law. Their display is not exclusively in a religious context, but that context needs to be defined explicitly. However, if it is for religious context, then it can exist if the community is willing to entertain placement of other religious markers, which seems to be something you agree with. My question, though, is how welcome to the idea do you think a community would be to the placement of a Wiccan pentacle, or a Baphomet goat head? I can guarantee you that in a lot of communities that would happen almost immediately, which would cause conflict that places the local government in a position of liability.

This liability that exists in an all-or-none situation causes localities to take the "none" approach because it is easier to apply and is the least likely to increase liability on constitutional grounds.

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2018, 12:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You CAN support all of them.

The first two commandments of the Christian religion say that you can't.

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2018, 02:13 PM)Griever Wrote: that pesky ol separation of church and state sure gets in the way for christians to understand why the government cant and shouldnt put up displays of the 10 commandments

the butt hurt, the salt, and the tears from conservatives and fundamentals would be in full view if the federal government put up a monument supporting islam

hell, previous guy in the white house had a muslim sounding name, and conservatives and fundies claimed he was a secret muslim agent for 8 years (and counting)

lets just do no religious monuments, because if anything else is up it will just be further evidence that christians are nothing but hypocrites

A recent Lt Governor of Tennessee, Ron Ramsey, claimed Islam was not even a religion.

Multiple elected state representatives called for the removal of our current governor just because he appoint a Muslim to his cabinet.

Christians would never tolerate Islamic iconography psted on an equal basis with the Christian Ten Commandments, let alone Wiccan or Satanic symbols.  They only want religious freedom for Christian stuff.

Phil, would you rather have young kids go to a school where Islam, Satanic worship, and Christian worship are all treated equally, or would you rather have them all excluded?

[*bfine32*]

As to the sidebar: If someone wants to see the 10 Commandments, go to church. No need for the display of any religion at government facilities. WTS, I've always found it interesting to research the impetus and and the development of the phrase separation of church and state. I don't think it was exactly meant as SCOTUS and others have ruled; but I'm good with it.

[Griever]

(06-14-2018, 05:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to the sidebar: If someone wants to see the 10 Commandments, go to church. No need for the display of any religion at government facilities. WTS, I've always found it interesting to research the impetus and and the development of the phrase separation of church and state. I don't think it was exactly meant as SCOTUS and others have ruled; but I'm good with it.

im thankful every day we arent a christian nation

[*PhilHos*]

(06-14-2018, 03:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Which I don't disagree with entirely. The Ten Commandments do exist in relief at the Supreme Court, for example, because of their importance in the history of law. Their display is not exclusively in a religious context, but that context needs to be defined explicitly. However, if it is for religious context, then it can exist if the community is willing to entertain placement of other religious markers, which seems to be something you agree with. My question, though, is how welcome to the idea do you think a community would be to the placement of a Wiccan pentacle, or a Baphomet goat head? I can guarantee you that in a lot of communities that would happen almost immediately, which would cause conflict that places the local government in a position of liability.

This liability that exists in an all-or-none situation causes localities to take the "none" approach because it is easier to apply and is the least likely to increase liability on constitutional grounds.

I understand that and I don't disagree that the less "traditional" (for lack of a better phrase) religious icons would surely draw some controversy (to put it mildly), but if our government is supposed to be a government OF the people and FOR the people and the PEOPLE are religiously diverse, then the solution should be to allow for ALL religious iconography displayed. If some Christian group gets upset that a Muslim or Wiccan display is there, then tell them tough titties.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-14-2018, 05:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The first two commandments of the Christian religion say that you can't.

First off, the government isn't a part of the Christian religion so there's no reason the government can't support ALL religions

More importantly: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

[Griever]

(06-15-2018, 03:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: First off, the government isn't a part of the Christian religion so there's no reason the government can't support ALL religions

More importantly: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

theres also plenty in the book about treating refugees, immigrants and foreigners with love and respect, but the right seems to just gloss over all that in there quest 

[*bfine32*]

(06-15-2018, 10:18 AM)Griever Wrote: im thankful every day we arent a christian nation

And I'm thankful everyday that I am a Christian person. Looks like we both have something to be thankful about everyday and that's a good thing.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-14-2018, 05:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A recent Lt Governor of Tennessee, Ron Ramsey, claimed Islam was not even a religion.

Multiple elected state representatives called for the removal of our current governor just because he appoint a Muslim to his cabinet.

Christians would never tolerate Islamic iconography psted on an equal basis with the Christian Ten Commandments, let alone Wiccan or Satanic symbols.

Many Christians are also upset at gays getting married. Guess you're in favor of not letting ANYBODY get married, right? 

(06-14-2018, 05:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Phil, would you rather have young kids go to a school where Islam, Satanic worship, and Christian worship are all treated equally, or would you rather have them all excluded?

So you admit that exlcuding them all is not treating religions equally? Thanks. :thumsbups:

Seriously, though, i would rather have young kids go to a school where Islam, Satanic worship, and Christian worship are all treated equally. A school like that, you're bound to see less discrimination and bullying towards kids based on their religious beliefs.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2018, 03:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: First off, the government isn't a part of the Christian religion so there's no reason the government can't support ALL religions

How can the government support two different religions that both claim they are the only true religion.  No matter which one they chose the other will be upset.  The Ten Commandments that were posted in schools claimed that the Christian god was the only god and commands people to have no other gods.  Christians would freak out if we started posting those rules equally beside iconography from Islam, Wiccan, and Satanic religions.

Do you want your child coming home from school saying that Christianity is no better than Satanism because the school says they are all equal?  Or do you want to do your religious teaching at home and church?

[*PhilHos*]

(06-15-2018, 03:06 PM)Griever Wrote: theres also plenty in the book about treating refugees, immigrants and foreigners with love and respect, but the right seems to just gloss over all that in there quest 

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is glossing over treating other people with love and respect? 

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2018, 03:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So you admit that exlcuding them all is not treating religions equally? Thanks. :thumsbups:

No.  Please explain what makes you think I said anything like that.  I have no idea what you are talking about.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2018, 03:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Many Christians are also upset at gays getting married. Guess you're in favor of not letting ANYBODY get married, right? 

Again I have no idea what your point is.

I think that any consenting adults should be allowed to get married to each other.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2018, 03:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: "Love your neighbor as yourself" is glossing over treating other people with love and respect? 

No.  But the right does not follow that in their policies.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-15-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How can the government support two different religions that both claim they are the only true religion.  No matter which one they chose the other will be upset. 

So? We are divided in many ways, yet only religion seems to be the one that we say "No thanks" to. You don't support bannign all marriages even though many straight people are upset at about gay marriage. You don't support banning all gender identification because some cis people are upset at transgenderism.

(06-15-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Ten Commandments that were posted in schools claimed that the Christian god was the only god and commands people to have no other gods. 

I'm pretty sure Jews and Muslims would disagree with this here seeing as how they, too, believe the 10 Commandments to be the word of God handed down. Why you think it's exclusive only to Christianity, I don't know?

(06-15-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Christians would freak out if we started posting those rules equally beside iconography from Islam, Wiccan, and Satanic religions.

Why do you care so much about what Christians think or do? If atheists were to freak out that Christmas is a federally recognized holiday, would you support banning ALL holidays and working EVERY day of the year?

(06-15-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Do you want your child coming home from school saying that Christianity is no better than Satanism because the school says they are all equal?

My children aren't weakminded *******.

Seriously, though, I don't teach my children that Christianity is better than anything. I teach my children about God and I encourage them to have a relationship with Him. Christianity can be used to describe the general teachings of Jesus that we follow, but I don't teach them that we have a "religion" insomuch as I teach them that I have a relationship with God and I encourage them to have one too.

(06-15-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Or do you want to do your religious teaching at home and church?

No, i don't want religious teaching at school. But, then again, I'm not advocating for that.

[*PhilHos*]

fred, is there some reason you don't believe in multi-quoting? Just curious

fredtoast Wrote:No. Please explain what makes you think I said anything like that. I have no idea what you are talking about.

I was being facetious. Look at the sentence I quoted. Grammatically, you could make the argument that you were saying that by excluding them all (which is what the current MO of schools are) that religions are not treated equally.

fredtoast Wrote:Again I have no idea what your point is.

I think that any consenting adults should be allowed to get married to each other.

It's not that difficult to grasp. Your argument is that because people of different religions would be upset at differing religious iconography being displayed, ergo ALL religious iconography should be banned. My counter is that people of differing sexual orientation are upset at gay marraige, so your logic, if it were to be consistently applied, should be that we ban all marriage.

fredtoast Wrote:No. But the right does not follow that in their policies.

That's debatable (which I don't care to do on this particular subject right now), but the right does follow that more than the left when it comes to charitable giving and charitable works.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2018, 03:19 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So? We are divided in many ways, yet only religion seems to be the one that we say "No thanks" to. You don't support bannign all marriages even though many straight people are upset at about gay marriage. You don't support banning all gender identification because some cis people are upset at transgenderism.

We can't ban all marriage because there are multiple legal rights and issues that revolve around marriage.

And we may very well ban all gender identification except in areas like sports.  I would have no problem with that.

There is no connection between government and religion.  There is no need for the government to be involved in religion for any reason.  In fact it would be impossible to make any laws or regulations based in any way on religion because not all religions agree.  So the best way to handle it is to eliminate religion from all government.