Player gets booed for upholding personal convictions

[XenoMorph]

(06-07-2018, 02:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not the same, but that does not make discrimination okay.  That is my point.

Christians have a long history of justifying discrimination based on their religious beliefs.  The main opponents to womens suffrage were Christians.  The main opponents to interracial marriage were Christians.  The main opponents to same sex marriage were Christians.  Yet they all think that discrimination is okay as long as it is based on their Christian beliefs.  To Christians all these victims of discrimination deserve to be denied equal rights because they do not agree with some mythology written thousands of years ago that has as much bases in reality as a Harry Potter book.

theres a big difference between not supporting something you don't believe in and actively attacking it.

She Didn't do anything negative to anyone she simply chose to remove herself from the situation so she did not have support something she didn't believe in.

You can accept something as is  and still not believe in it.


I accept there are religious people out there for whatever reason but I don't believe in it... I try not to attack someones personal beliefs like that unless they are trying to shove it down my throat.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-07-2018, 02:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not the same, but that does not make discrimination okay.  That is my point.

I get that, but, then why bring it up? Could it be another chance for you to belittle religion?

(06-07-2018, 02:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Christians have a long history of justifying discrimination based on their religious beliefs.  The main opponents to womens suffrage were Christians.  The main opponents to interracial marriage were Christians.  The main opponents to same sex marriage were Christians.  Yet they all think that discrimination is okay as long as it is based on their Christian beliefs. 

They ALL do? So you lump ALL Christians together? Even those that AREN'T opposed to same sex marriage? Even those that ARE opposed to discrimination? Way to be EXACTLY the same as those who you complain about.

(06-07-2018, 02:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To Christians all these victims of discrimination deserve to be denied equal rights because they do not agree with some mythology written thousands of years ago that has as much bases in reality as a Harry Potter book.

Hey, nothing like ending your post decrying someone else's discrimination with a little of your own hatred and bigotry. Well done, sir.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-07-2018, 02:21 PM)Dill Wrote: How does her message of love and treating gay people with respect square with her refusal to wear the jersey? 

How is her refusal to wear the jersey a sign of disrespect and hate? Are you saying the only options one has to any ideology are to fully support it or to completely hate and disrespect it? Is it not possible to oppose something without hating or disrespecting it?

Am I to assume that you hate and disrespect every Republican? Or every Christian? Or every person who has an ideology you disagree with?

[fredtoast]

I can see where some of my posts have become more antagonistic than necessary. I have edited some to remove the more inflammatory language.

So let me state my opinion as clearly as I can. Discrimination and deny equal rights under the law is not acceptable just because it is based on religious beliefs. It doesn't matter how much you claim you "love the sinner" if you argue that they are not entitled to equal rights or you claim that their beliefs are an abomination that is making the world more corrupt and evil. Christians have a long history of supporting discrimination based on religious beliefs from women's suffrage to interracial marriage to same sex marriage.

Christians have freedom to worship and believe whatever they want in this country, but they have to understand that when they support discrimination or insult other people by calling them evil sinners who deserve punishment they can't claim that is out of love. So when the publically espouse beliefs that other people find degrading, insulting, and prejudicial they have to expect that other people will respond with boos and disgust.

They are not being booed or denigrated just because they have "different" beliefs. They are being booed and denigrated because their beliefs are insulting, degrading, and prejudicial. You have to expect some blowback when you tell a person that their love for another person is evil and deserves punishment.

[BmorePat87]

(06-07-2018, 12:42 PM)Beaker Wrote: Nobody has denied inequality. But that doesn't over ride the issue of personal freedom. If you want to acknowledge/protest inequality, that should be your right. If you don't want to acknowledge/protest inequality, that should be your right also. So the fact that the player declined an invitation to a team whose views did not match her own is perfectly fine. She should not be demonized for not thinking the same way as someone who is more accepting of LGBTQ issues. If she were actively protesting against LBGTQ rights, that would be a different story. But she wasn't....she was simply choosing not to participate by declining an invitation. And nobody is acknowledging how difficult a decision that may have been for her given that playing for the USWNT is quite an honor, not to mention the goal of most young female soccer players.

Context is important. My response had nothing to do with the player's protest. I already said she had the right to not want to support the cause.

 It was in response to someone suggesting that programs that are inclusive and push for equal treatment are promoting "privileges" and that "As long as we, as a society, continue to draw special attention... no one will ever be equal".

[*PhilHos*]

(06-07-2018, 04:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I can see where some of my posts have become more antagonistic than necessary.  I have edited some to remove the more inflammatory language.

So let me state my opinion as clearly as I can.  Discrimination and deny equal rights under the law is not acceptable just because it is based on religious beliefs.  It doesn't matter how much you claim you "love the sinner" if you argue that they are not entitled to equal rights or you claim that their beliefs are an abomination that is making the world more corrupt and evil.  Christians have a long history of supporting discrimination based on religious beliefs from women's suffrage to interracial marriage to same sex marriage.  

Christians have freedom to worship and believe whatever they want in this country, but they have to understand that when they support discrimination or insult other people by calling them evil sinners who deserve punishment they can't claim that is out of love.  So when the publically espouse beliefs that other people find degrading, insulting, and prejudicial they have to expect that other people will respond with boos and disgust.

They are not being booed or denigrated  just because they have "different" beliefs.  They are being booed and denigrated because their beliefs are insulting, degrading, and prejudicial.  You have to expect some blowback when you tell a person that their love for another person is evil and deserves punishment.

You do realize that just because YOU think that not supporting gay marriage is a matter of "discrimination and deny[ing] equal rights under the law" that not everyone agrees with you, right? If someone is against gay marriage, they don't see it as a denial of equal rights under the law. And in the end, all that matters is what the most recent court decision says on the subject. That doesn't make your opinion any more "right" than the Christian that's against gay marriage, though it does make your opinion fall in line with what is currently acceptable under the law.

Also, while there are certainly some who do, a vast majority of Christians don't call other people "evil sinners who deserve punishment". Those that do, you are correct, can NOT say they are doing so out of love. 

fredtoast Wrote:You have to expect some blowback when you tell a person that their love for another person is evil and deserves punishment.

So, then you agree that the chick from the OP doesn't deserve to be booed since she never said that gay people are evil and deserve punishment. Glad to see we agree.

[Dill]

(06-07-2018, 03:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: How is her refusal to wear the jersey a sign of disrespect and hate? Are you saying the only options one has to any ideology are to fully support it or to completely hate and disrespect it? Is it not possible to oppose something without hating or disrespecting it?

Am I to assume that you hate and disrespect every Republican? Or every Christian? Or every person who has an ideology you disagree with?

That is a good question, Phil.

For example, I don't disrespect and hate every Christian. I grew up in a Christian home attending supportive churches with my family.  My father was a minister/missionary who frequently helped people out of work, fed the poor, etc.  I do distinguish between kinds of Christians though--basically Old Testament and New Testament--with latter earning my respect and approval. On the other hand, though not myself a Christian, I don't really "oppose" Christianity as a whole. Though I may express scorn for contemporary Christians, you have never heard a disparaging word from me about Jesus and his teachings (as recorded in the 4 gospels). If someone wanted me to wear a local church logos for a charity basketball game, I would not refuse. I do oppose fundamentalisms of every ideological variety, though. How much depends on which. I would not wear a shirt with a logos for the Westboro Baptist Church; that would be a statement of disrespect for that church, but not a condemnation of Christianity.

As far as Republicans go, remember that I am old enough to remember Eisenhower, and the days when liberals and conservatives were spread between both parties. I have often opposed Republicans without hating or disrespecting them; Bush 41 would be one I partly admire as well, along with Bob Dole and John McCain. The majority of the party now seems captured by a leader I despise. But 15-20% share my standards closely enough to despise him as well.

Some "ideologies" do invoke a black and white response--just not all. There aren't "good people on both sides" of a clash between neo-Nazis and protestors.

The shirt test is a pretty good one. I won't wear a MAGA shirt. Or any pro Trump insignia. I think Hinkel refused to wear the National Team jersey for a formally similar reason--doesn't agree with what it stands for and won't "normalize" what it represents.  In her case, that meant gay people living in a society that accepts gay people as normal.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 05:04 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You do realize that just because YOU think that not supporting gay marriage is a matter of "discrimination and deny[ing] equal rights under the law" that not everyone agrees with you, right? If someone is against gay marriage, they don't see it as a denial of equal rights under the law. And in the end, all that matters is what the most recent court decision says on the subject. That doesn't make your opinion any more "right" than the Christian that's against gay marriage, though it does make your opinion fall in line with what is currently acceptable under the law.

There is no dispute that my position is for "equal rights" and people who oppose "equal rights" are promoting discrimination.

Which one you feel is "right" is subjective, but from women's rights, to interracial marriage, to same sex marriage society generally agrees with me.

If you want to say that discrimination is "right" then you should be prepared to suffer some blowback from the general population.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 05:04 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, then you agree that the chick from the OP doesn't deserve to be booed since she never said that gay people are evil and deserve punishment. Glad to see we agree.

No.  I never said anything like that.  In fact I posted her quotes from the day same sex marriage became legal to show how she felt the Bible, which labels homosexuality as a sin, was the truth, and how the world "getting more corrupt", and how Christians needed to pray for them to be "saved" from their homosexuality. 

Remember earlier when I asked how many Christians would be honest?

Do you believe that she thinks homosexuals are sinners and that sinners deserve punishment for their sins?

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2018, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I never said anything like that.  In fact I posted her quotes from the day same sex marriage became legal to show how she felt the Bible, which labels homosexuality as a sin, was the truth, and how the world "getting more corrupt", and how Christians needed to pray for them to be "saved" from their homosexuality. 

Remember earlier when I asked how many Christians would be honest?

Do you believe that she thinks homosexuals are sinners and that sinners deserve punishment for their sins?

Part 1 yes

Part 2 no

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Do you believe that she thinks homosexuals are sinners and that sinners deserve punishment for their sins?

(06-07-2018, 06:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Part 1 yes

Part 2 no

I don't understand your answer.  If she believes the Bible is the truth then how can she not believe that sinners deserve punishment for their sins?

[Beaker]

(06-07-2018, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I never said anything like that.  In fact I posted her quotes from the day same sex marriage became legal to show how she felt the Bible, which labels homosexuality as a sin, was the truth, and how the world "getting more corrupt", and how Christians needed to pray for them to be "saved" from their homosexuality. 

Which falls right under what I was saying, that she isn't really "protesting" equal rights for gays....she doesn't want them to be gay in the first place.

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2018, 02:22 PM)Dill Wrote: Now and then, there is need for an LOL.

Good, we are back on track.

To recap: I think that Hinkel supported discrimination against gays by refusing to wear the rainbow jersey and said why in a notoriously anti-gay venue.

You agree that sin degrades human existence and gays are sinners so their existence degrades human existence in general, and that is why Hinkel would not wear the jersey--because gayness, and acceptance thereof, degrades human existence.

But you deny any connection between Hinkel's anti-gay affirmation and bigotry and discrimination.

Rather, you find criticism of Hinkel "simpleminded," irrational, and hate-driven.  She only expressed her "personal convictions" and only refused to wear a "piece of clothing."

Could one assume, at this point, that you think Hinkel wasn't discriminating against gays because her assessment of their degrading presence in society is correct?  She is doing the right thing and that is why she is not a "bigot"?  Just a question.

As I said: Beliefs cannot discriminate, but your belief that she supports discrimination because she refused to wear a jersey and mentioned it in a notoriously anti-gay venue, is nothing more than your belief. This is what she said  “I just felt so convicted in my spirit that it wasn’t my job to wear this jersey,”. That leaves the "open-minded" to demonize her, consider her a bigot, and someone who discriminates.

You questions at the end have already been answered. I do not think she was discriminating against anyone by providing comments on her beliefs. She has done nothing to show that she has hate and intolerance (a bigot) toward anyone different than her. Some have in this very thread though. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2018, 06:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand your answer.  If she believes the Bible is the truth then how can she not believe that sinners deserve punishment for their sins?

There is only one unpardonable sin and being a homosexual is not it. 

[*PhilHos*]

(06-07-2018, 05:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is no dispute that my position is for "equal rights" and people who oppose "equal rights" are promoting discrimination.

Which one you feel is "right" is subjective, but from women's rights, to interracial marriage, to same sex marriage society generally agrees with me.

If you want to say that discrimination is "right" then you should be prepared to suffer some blowback from the general population.

My point is that just because YOU say that the person is in favor of or supports discrimination does not mean that they will see it that way.

[*bfine32*]

Let me ask a question of the open-minded:

If the USA women's team decided to have their players wear Gay Pride headbands and a Muslim refused because her faith says she must hear a traditional headgear at all times. You you be viewing that person as a hateful bigot?

[*PhilHos*]

(06-07-2018, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I never said anything like that.  In fact I posted her quotes from the day same sex marriage became legal to show how she felt the Bible, which labels homosexuality as a sin, was the truth, and how the world "getting more corrupt", and how Christians needed to pray for them to be "saved" from their homosexuality. 

Remember earlier when I asked how many Christians would be honest?

Do you believe that she thinks homosexuals are sinners and that sinners deserve punishment for their sins?

Do I believe she thinks homosexuals are sinners? Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me. The reason I'm not sure is that the Bible doesn't say homosexuals are sinners, but rather that homosexual sex is a sin. Seeing as a lot of Christians make a LOT of mistakes on what the Bible says, I would not be surprised if she considered homosexuals as sinners.

As to the 2nd half of your question, most Christians (if not all) believe that ALL sinners deserve punishment for their sins regardless of what that sin was. The only question is if they recognize that it is not HUMANITY's place to punish the sinner but God's.

I've not seen anything from her words that would suggest anything other than treating gay people with love and respect. If those kinds of sentiments are worhty of derision and booing, that says more about the person doing the deriding and booing than the one receving them.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 06:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: My point is that just because YOU say that the person is in favor of or supports discrimination does not mean that they will see it that way.

You can argue that it is justified to deny people equal rights based on religious beliefs, but you can not deny that you are in favor of denying people equal rights and supporting discrimination.  Discrimination has a definition that can not be changed because of what you believe it means.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-07-2018, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can argue that it is justified to deny people equal rights based on religious beliefs, but you can not deny that you are in favor of denying people equal rights and supporting discrimination.

Yes you can. Gay people have always had the ability to get married ... as long as it was to someone from the opposite sex.  If you believe that, then you believe that opposing gay marriage is not denying people equal rights but rather denying people special or unique rights. I get your point and I know you disagree with that argument, but that doesn't mean it's any less valid or less logical.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-07-2018, 05:34 PM)Dill Wrote: Some "ideologies" do invoke a black and white response--just not all. There aren't "good people on both sides" of a clash between neo-Nazis and protestors.

Aside from your definition of "good people", I can agree with this.

(06-07-2018, 05:34 PM)Dill Wrote: The shirt test is a pretty good one. I won't wear a MAGA shirt. Or any pro Trump insignia. I think Hinkel refused to wear the National Team jersey for a formally similar reason--doesn't agree with what it stands for and won't "normalize" what it represents.  In her case, that meant gay people living in a society that accepts gay people as normal.

At least you couched this as what you "think" instead of as an irrefutable fact like SOME people are wont to do on here. With that said, i don't agree, obviously.