PnR Decorum and suspensions

[Bengalzona]

(07-14-2017, 11:49 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It's humorous to see those who preach personal responsibility the most practice what the preach the least.

(07-15-2017, 12:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm not sure what it is you're trying to accomplish because even you aren't buying what you're selling.

These types of comments that are directed towards another member (calling them out, so to speak) are one of the things we are seeking to avoid. 

Whatever the ill feelings are between you two, I suggest you PM each other and work it out so that it doesn't follow around the threads.

(07-15-2017, 03:27 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Kind of agree with Lucie here....

You should be allowed to insult people who deserve it.  If you have a really stupid point - you ARE stupid (or at least very ignorant).

There are a couple of lines drawn here.

1) You can't insult other members in this forum. That will not change. We have had too many threads devolve into pissing matches where people insult and threaten each other. If that were happening and nobody cared, that would be one thing. But the fact is that we have had so many complaints about it from the quiet majority that we have had to step in and insist on this. We have had multiple complaints from people who tell us that they are afraid to express any of their ideas in this forum because they fear that they personally will be attacked. The whole purpose of this forum is that people would have the ability to express and discuss their opinions freely. There have been many calls, even among other Mods, to close this forum permanently. Enough calls that it is fair to say that this policy is one of the only things keeping the forum open.

2) We have the Political Jokes and Memes thread where you have an outlet to slam political figures, parties, ideologies, etc. You just can't slam other members and you have to watch your language a bit.

[Bengalzona]

(07-15-2017, 10:22 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'll only disagree to that because some points, while stupid, are only because of their ideology.  Doesn't mean that PERSON is necessarily stupid.  I knwo very smart people who believe very stupid things because it advances their ideology (religious or political).

I think we should be allowed to say "that statement is stupid and I can't believe you believe it" or some such thing.

But I also agree with the mods that sticking to the POINT rather than the person is the best way to go.

If this board had a tremendous turnover of members I could see the occasional reminder about past posts and past stances in relation to something new that is said.  But given who posts here I think we all know who stands for what and why.  

That said occasionally it is needed to remind someone that they said something a year ago that directly reflects on what they are saying now.

(07-15-2017, 12:29 PM)Beaker Wrote: This makes sense. If your insult refers to the item rather than the person themselves, then it should be considered part of the discussion (that poster's opinion) and not a personal attack.

Exactly. Thank you.  

[Bengalzona]

(07-14-2017, 09:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: This post makes me want to test out words in a separate post.

For the record, I only typed asterixes, not the actual words. That was part of the joke, 

[Bengalholic]

Just a few things to keep in mind:


If you constantly feel the need to parse, contort and re-interpret the rules in order to justify your posting style, then you already know that your posting is problematic. It's the responsibility of each member to make sure that their posts conform to the CoC, and not the other way around.

This is a football message board, first and foremost. Having a section like PnR is meant as a bonus to our members who enjoy those types of discussions. However, it's up to those same members whether PnR remains a part of this site. The simple fact is that more issues and complaints come out of this section than the rest of the site combined. If you want PnR to continue to be a part of this board, then make sure that it stays as civil and respectful as possible.

Topics in PnR can obviously become heated and contentious because of strongly held opinions and experiences...but that doesn't mean that you can't discuss those issues like rational adults...avoiding personal insults, skirting the rules, derailing threads, etc. You can make your arguments and challenge the arguments of others without ever belittling or degrading another member. 

Thanks, 
BJ

[StLucieBengal]

(07-15-2017, 02:08 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: For the record, I only typed asterixes, not the actual words. That was part of the joke, 

I know. But there are some surprising words on the filter. I have found out via PM.

[xxlt]

My entire time at the mother ship and my entire time here I've never filed a complaint. I've been called names (everything but - you get the picture), threatened, mocked, misquoted, and generally had my character assassinated. And that was by the people that liked me.

But seriously, I've never filed a complaint, and I don't know who this silent majority is that is doing all this complaining, but maybe the problem is with the complainants and not the forum? Maybe there needs to be a tougher criteria to get into the forum? Maybe if you are a chronic complainer you should take a vacation (or be given one) from the forum? Maybe if you've been given multiple vacations and you are still complaining about the environment maybe a longer break is in order?

I don't know, and really don't care, but I have to wonder if there is a direct correlation in how inappropriate and baseless someone's posts are and how much they complain. But then, I am not an expert on complaining because I have never done it. From my perspective "the league office" is doing a great job and is invited to consider this alternative perspective on the matter from a non-complainer and rule-abider.

[StLucieBengal]

^^^^

I think if there was a limit on how many posts you could report in a month it would go a long way. I believe we only have a small handful of people who consistently report posts.

The rules are not the issue it's the same group of posters who report posts and use this feature as a weapon. Also I will say that when we are suspended/banned we should know why and by which moderator. This way we can follow up as needed to correct the problem. I have been able to correct many issues with both Zona and Benton because they are always accessible and willing to be transparent with their actions.

[Dill]

(07-15-2017, 03:01 PM)xxlt Wrote: But seriously, I've never filed a complaint, and I don't know who this silent majority is that is doing all this complaining, but maybe the problem is with the complainants and not the forum? Maybe there needs to be a tougher criteria to get into the forum? Maybe if you are a chronic complainer you should take a vacation (or be given one) from the forum? Maybe if you've been given multiple vacations and you are still complaining about the environment maybe a longer break is in order?

I don't know, and really don't care, but I have to wonder if there is a direct correlation in how inappropriate and baseless someone's posts are and how much they complain. But then, I am not an expert on complaining because I have never done it. From my perspective "the league office" is doing a great job and is invited to consider this alternative perspective on the matter from a non-complainer and rule-abider.

(07-15-2017, 04:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The rules are not the issue it's the same group of posters who report posts and use this feature as a weapon.   

You raise an interesting question here, XXLT and Lucie.

I hope that the kind of complaint the moderators are referring to is plain and simple the personal invective type. I have been the recipient of that myself, and have never asked for protection, though I have taken time mid-thread to post what I think the standards should be. I don't like name calling because it is a thread-stopper and discourages participation. I'm assuming the mods don't allow a double standard, so someone who calls others names all the time can suddenly turn around and call in the mods to silence opposition when someone does the same to him.

Another ground for complaints, however, could be that people's religious/political heroes and ideologies are attacked in the forum, and so they don't want to post any more. By "attack" I don't mean forum members themselves are called stupid or ignorant, I mean rather that their views, or views of those they esteem, are critiqued. Someone else argues that their claims are factually incorrect or logically inconsistent.  Like our president, they don't make a distinction between name calling and rational argument.  Attack is attack.

If there is someone whose posts come under this sort of rational criticism, not name calling, and he complains to the Mods, I trust them to sort that out.  If you post a link to support your contention that Muslims are poised to impose Sharia law on Cincinnati, and several posters challenge your source and your argument rationally, you should not complain "No one is letting me have my opinion" and beg the moderators to make the forum your safe space by suspending those who disagree with you. I don't know if anyone has ever done that, but if he did and the mods gave in, that would do far more damage to the forum than personal attacks, if civil political discourse is valued. 

Benton added a password feature so that people can't complain they accidentally wandered in here and got their feelings hurt.

Zona says the no-personal-attack rule is keeping the forum alive, so I am hoping people who want to keep the forum grasp that.

[Bengalholic]

(07-15-2017, 04:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: ^^^^ 

I think if there was a limit on how many posts you could report in a month it would go a long way.  I believe we only have a small handful of people who consistently report posts.  

The rules are not the issue it's the same group of posters who report posts and use this feature as a weapon.     Also I will say that when we are suspended/banned we should know why and by which moderator.   This way we can follow up as needed to correct the problem.   I have been able to correct  many issues with both Zona and Benton because they are always accessible and willing to be transparent with their actions.

Actually, the rules the are the primary issue...especially if a member (or members) continuously pushes the boundaries of the CoC, looks for ways to get around the rules or simply refuse to abide by the very basic and common sense standards we have put in place. 

[Dill]

(07-15-2017, 12:20 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Anyone who has made a news story with their actions ais fair game for insults.....   they certainly deserve it for doing crazy stuff to get them into the news in the first place.

Some people find rational argument boring, Lucie. I find insults boring. They usually don't describe a set of objective circumstances; they just express how the insulter feels about a topic/person.  And unless you are a psychologist, rarely is reading a register of someone else's negative feelings interesting or informative.  And this is true even if one is insulting someone not in this forum.

No doubt, some people feel momentarily empowered by insults, as if labeling alone has accomplished something. But if insulters recognized how little insults accomplish and how they mark the insulter as deficient, then insults would naturally disappear.

[Bengalholic]

(07-15-2017, 05:13 PM)Dill Wrote: Some people find rational argument boring, Lucie. I find insults boring. They usually don't describe a set of objective circumstances; they just express how the insulter feels about a topic/person.  And unless you are a psychologist, rarely is reading a register of someone else's negative feelings interesting or informative.  And this is true even if one is insulting someone not in this forum.

No doubt, some people feel momentarily empowered by insults, as if labeling alone has accomplished something. But if insulters recognized how little insults accomplish and how they mark the insulter as deficient, then insults would naturally disappear.

Nice post brother. Another thing about insults (or derogatory remarks) - once they start getting inserted or exchanged in a discussion, that discussion usually tends to devolve very quickly. They aren't advantageous in any way during an conversation/argument, and undercut any good points you may have.

[xxlt]

(07-15-2017, 05:13 PM)Dill Wrote: Some people find rational argument boring, Lucie. I find insults boring. They usually don't describe a set of objective circumstances; they just express how the insulter feels about a topic/person.  And unless you are a psychologist, rarely is reading a register of someone else's negative feelings interesting or informative.  And this is true even if one is insulting someone not in this forum.

No doubt, some people feel momentarily empowered by insults, as if labeling alone has accomplished something. But if insulters recognized how little insults accomplish and how they mark the insulter as deficient, then insults would naturally disappear.

Kind of Jerry Springer vs. Bill Maher... I can see certain members sitting in one audience and certain members in the other. I doubt many would attend both shows. Just a hunch.

[Rotobeast]

(07-15-2017, 04:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Also I will say that when we are suspended/banned we should know why and by which moderator. This way we can follow up as needed to correct the problem. I have been able to correct many issues with both Zona and Benton because they are always accessible and willing to be transparent with their actions.

If I'm not mistaken, Bfine was had issue with this.
A member should know WHO suspended them and have the ability to plead their case, directly.
Honestly, it is my opinion that every suspension should start out as a temporary one, as further investigation and mod consensus dictate final actions.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-15-2017, 05:13 PM)Dill Wrote: Some people find rational argument boring, Lucie. I find insults boring. They usually don't describe a set of objective circumstances; they just express how the insulter feels about a topic/person.  And unless you are a psychologist, rarely is reading a register of someone else's negative feelings interesting or informative.  And this is true even if one is insulting someone not in this forum.

No doubt, some people feel momentarily empowered by insults, as if labeling alone has accomplished something. But if insulters recognized how little insults accomplish and how they mark the insulter as deficient, then insults would naturally disappear.

Fair enough.

One other issue we have is that the definition of insult has been stretched. Much like the definition of racism. I think everyone needs to have a word with themselves and ask exactly what we all think these words mean.

And I am full aware that I am an ahole and at times insensitive. Anyone who knows me knows this but this doesn't make me an (insert -ist/-phobe here)

What's disturbing is the amount of people who can not agree to disagree and move on. I will say that Belsnickle is one that can discuss then agree to disagree without getting crazy. I certainly can respect that from him.

Says a lot about our character if we are unwilling to move on and be civil despite our differences.

[Dill]

(07-15-2017, 05:41 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Fair enough.  

One other issue we have is that the definition of insult has been stretched.  Much like the definition of racism.  I think everyone needs to have a word with themselves and ask exactly what we all think these words mean.  

And I am full aware that I am an ahole and at times insensitive.  Anyone who knows me knows this but this doesn't make me an (insert -ist/-phobe here)

What's disturbing is the amount of people who can not agree to disagree and move on.   I will say that Belsnickle is one that can discuss then agree to disagree without getting crazy.   I certainly can respect that from him.  

Says a lot about our character if we are unwilling to move on and be civil despite our differences.

I address that somewhat in a post above. Just disagreeing with someone is not insulting him.  Some people do have difficulty separating insult from critique.

Bels is a model poster, certainly. Mega-informative and I have never heard him call anyone a name. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "move on." Sometimes there is no resolution to an argument. Then moving on would be good. But sometimes someone just wants to explain his position in more detail. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes as people exchange information, a discussion can evolve and change "organically." It doesn't have to be just a tally of positions stated once and then accepted or not.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-15-2017, 06:32 PM)Dill Wrote: I address that somewhat in a post above. Just disagreeing with someone is not insulting him.  Some people do have difficulty separating insult from critique.

Bels is a model poster, certainly. Mega-informative and I have never heard him call anyone a name. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "move one." Sometimes there is no resolution to an argument. Then moving on would be good. But sometimes someone just wants to explain his position in more detail. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes as people exchange information, a discussion can evolve and change "organically." It doesn't have to be just a tally of positions stated once and then accepted or not.

I am referring to the Mortal Kombat attitude of needing to finish someone in a discussion.

The reality is that rarely is anyone going to be swayed. We are going to believe what is common in our own areas in our own groups. And that's fine.

[Benton]

(07-15-2017, 05:33 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Bfine was had issue with this.
A member should know WHO suspended them and have the ability to plead their case, directly.
Honestly, it is my opinion that every suspension should start out as a temporary one, as further investigation and mod consensus dictate final actions.

We've discussed this amongst ourselves and I see both sides. I think people have a right to know who and why action was taken against them. On the other hand, I don't want a moderator hesitating to do what they feel right for fear of fallout. I don't care too much about my popularity but I understand how an individual might be afraid to take action due to a friendship.

I encourage anyone with a concern to contact me. Even if I didn't suspend/reprimand them, I'll find out what the reasoning was and take it from there.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-15-2017, 01:55 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: These types of comments that are directed towards another member (calling them out, so to speak) are one of the things we are seeking to avoid. 

Whatever the ill feelings are between you two, I suggest you PM each other and work it out so that it doesn't follow around the threads.

I'm open to suggestions on how to address someone playing the victim card without addressing the person playing the victim card.

Every time I have been suspended it was my fault. It was because I wrote something that violated the code of conduct. Furthermore, I knew it. It wasn't because an unfortunate choice of pronouns without any intent to insult someone else. It wasn't because a cabal of snowflakes reported my posts. It wasn't because of overly subjective analysis of my words by liberal moderators. The number of people who report my posts is irrelevant. Because the moderators aren't going to suspend me because my posts are reported or by the number of people reporting my posts. The moderators will suspend me for breaking the rules. Suggesting otherwise is a disservice to the moderators and an insult to their integrity.

I can't speak for all here, but personally I know the Denny abused his position as a moderator at Bengals.com. That's one reason I believe the moderation should be transparent. Plus our legal system is transparent, for the most part. Even Article 15s in the military are posted publicly so people know what isn't tolerated, how punishment is carried out, and what not to do themselves, etc. Plus the members here can learn to trust in the "subjective" judgment of moderators when it comes to pronoun usage. Or we could ask for a change in moderation if it seems someone's judgement is clouded. It protects us from moderators like Denny and it protects moderators from false accusations.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I enjoy the back and forth that goes on but I tend to stop visiting threads when topics are changed that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread and it always turns against Christianity for some strange reason. I may be biased though and see only attacks on Christianity.

How when someone says they are against the death penalty and then another will be snarky and inject how Jesus talks to them and he says blah blah blah.

Some people have a real hatred for Christianity on this forum and will always make snarky comments about it no matter what the topic is.

I say if you can't stay on topic then don't post.

[hollodero]

(07-15-2017, 05:33 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Bfine was had issue with this.

Since everyone seems to participate here recently, I allow myself too. I have only one thing to say though. Free bfine.