Corker v Trump

[BmorePat87]

Surprised no one mentioned this. Is a major Senate Republican calling out Trump's utter incompetence, going so far as to mock him as a child, going to catch on with Congressional Republicans as the 2018 election cycle starts up or will it die out as he leaves office?

[GMDino]

(10-10-2017, 10:57 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Surprised no one mentioned this. Is a major Senate Republican calling out Trump's utter incompetence, going so far as to mock him as a child, going to catch on with Congressional Republicans as the 2018 election cycle starts up or will it die out as he leaves office?

Nope.  The ones running for re-election are afraid of his supporters (no matter how small a group that may be) so they'll tread lightly around Trump's inadequacies.

[BmorePat87]

(10-10-2017, 10:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: Nope.  The ones running for re-election are afraid of his supporters (no matter how small a group that may be) so they'll tread lightly around Trump's inadequacies.

Even after his endorsed candidate lost the Bama primary? Granted, the one that won is the far crazier candidate (the Breitbart/Alt right crowd's pick), but Trump had no sway over them. 

[CKwi88]

(10-10-2017, 10:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: Nope.  The ones running for re-election are afraid of his supporters (no matter how small a group that may be) so they'll tread lightly around Trump's inadequacies.

This. Corker just doesn't give a damn anymore, kind of like McCain.

I'm sure a healthy number of republicans do feel the same though, and seeing Corker helps reaffirm that at least some people in Washington can see the embarrassment going on.

[GMDino]

(10-10-2017, 11:10 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Even after his endorsed candidate lost the Bama primary? Granted, this is the far crazier candidate (the Breitbart/Alt right crowd's pick), but he had no sway over them. 

I have seen nothing from the GOP (those who still want to stay in office) that shows me they have the guts to stand up to Trump on anything at all.  They are fearful because they know they have been shown as fleckless "leaders" and can't afford to offend anyone in their base.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-10-2017, 11:10 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Even after his endorsed candidate lost the Bama primary? Granted, the one that won is the far crazier candidate (the Breitbart/Alt right crowd's pick), but Trump had no sway over them. 

Actually, that put the fear of god in them far more.  The Trump endorsement was perceived as him caving to establishment interests.  The fact that his endorsed candidate lost is proof that Trump voters will "save Trump from Trump".  Essentially, the Trump effect is alive and well, even if Trump doesn't always directly benefit from it. 

[Belsnickel]

(10-10-2017, 12:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, that put the fear of god in them far more.  The Trump endorsement was perceived as him caving to establishment interests.  The fact that his endorsed candidate lost is proof that Trump voters will "save Trump from Trump".  Essentially, the Trump effect is alive and well, even if Trump doesn't always directly benefit from it. 

Yeah, that is something I think a lot of people missed on the Alabama situation. He endorsed the establishment candidate, likely based on pressure from those around him. Trump's ideologically aligned with the one that won much more so than the guy he endorsed.

That, and the GOP voters are still behind him. I saw an 88-20 approval split on a Pew post recently, where 88% of Rep voters approve, and only 20% of Dems. And the base in the Midwest is more approving of him.

So yeah, lots being missed when looking at this by people on the left.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-10-2017, 12:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, that is something I think a lot of people missed on the Alabama situation. He endorsed the establishment candidate, likely based on pressure from those around him. Trump's ideologically aligned with the one that won much more so than the guy he endorsed.

This is exactly why I read ideologically extreme sources such as Breitbart and HuffPo, to get the perspectives of people I would otherwise have no exposure to (thank god), even though it is frequently nauseating/upsetting.  I think that's why so many people were/are mystified by the positions of the "other side" because they take no time to even attempt to understand them.  Understanding and acceptance are not synonymous.

[BmorePat87]

(10-10-2017, 12:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, that put the fear of god in them far more.  The Trump endorsement was perceived as him caving to establishment interests.  The fact that his endorsed candidate lost is proof that Trump voters will "save Trump from Trump".  Essentially, the Trump effect is alive and well, even if Trump doesn't always directly benefit from it. 

Has the movement transcended the individual himself or was it always just the natural evolution of the Tea Party turned Alt Right movement, and he was just a temporary figurehead for it?

I have to assume he has learned his lesson and, moving forward,  will back the Breitbart ordained candidate, otherwise he won't be the darling anymore. 

[GMDino]

(10-10-2017, 12:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Has the movement transcended the individual himself or was it always just the natural evolution of the Tea Party turned Alt Right movement, and he was just a temporary figurehead for it?

I have to assume he has learned his lesson and, moving forward,  will back the Breitbart ordained candidate, otherwise he won't be the darling anymore. 

It doesn't matter.  To his supporters even when he loses he wins.  Even when he deletes the tweets supporting the guy who lost he wins.

It's amusing.  And sad.

[Belsnickel]

(10-10-2017, 12:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Has the movement transcended the individual himself or was it always just the natural evolution of the Tea Party turned Alt Right movement, and he was just a temporary figurehead for it?

I have to assume he has learned his lesson and, moving forward,  will back the Breitbart ordained candidate, otherwise he won't be the darling anymore. 

The movement is frustration with the status quo on the right. It can't be about trying to pull the GOP to a more conservative path, which is what the Tea Party thing was about, because Trump isn't a conservative. So the real unifying theme between those two, and I think we do have to look at them together because without the TP movement, we wouldn't have the AR, is just anti-establishment thought. The movement is bigger than him, and he can be cast aside if he makes the wrong steps.

[BmorePat87]

(10-10-2017, 12:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, that is something I think a lot of people missed on the Alabama situation. He endorsed the establishment candidate, likely based on pressure from those around him. Trump's ideologically aligned with the one that won much more so than the guy he endorsed.

That, and the GOP voters are still behind him. I saw an 88-20 approval split on a Pew post recently, where 88% of Rep voters approve, and only 20% of Dems. And the base in the Midwest is more approving of him.

So yeah, lots being missed when looking at this by people on the left.

(10-10-2017, 12:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The movement is frustration with the status quo on the right. It can't be about trying to pull the GOP to a more conservative path, which is what the Tea Party thing was about, because Trump isn't a conservative. So the real unifying theme between those two, and I think we do have to look at them together because without the TP movement, we wouldn't have the AR, is just anti-establishment thought. The movement is bigger than him, and he can be cast aside if he makes the wrong steps.

The bulk of Republican voters are going to vote for the Republican no matter what. Same goes with Democrats for Democratic candidates. The AR or anti establishment bloc of the party was seemingly a plurality in the 2016 primary, but not a majority. So does a situation ever exist when a single challenger in the 2020 primary can come forward and unite more of the party together under effective leadership?

At some point, Trump will run out of Obama executive orders to nullify and the lack of any significant legislation will make it hard to deny that very little progress towards any stated campaign goals or agendas is taking place. Unless he manufactures a war, what exactly do you run on?

[BmorePat87]

just trying to throw questions out there to keep this going. So far this thread hasn't turned into complaining about the NFL or trans people... so good work guys

[Belsnickel]

(10-10-2017, 12:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The bulk of Republican voters are going to vote for the Republican no matter what. Same goes with Democrats for Democratic candidates. The AR or anti establishment bloc of the party was seemingly a plurality in the 2016 primary, but not a majority. So does a situation ever exist when a single challenger in the 2020 primary can come forward and unite more of the party together under effective leadership?

At some point, Trump will run out of Obama executive orders to nullify and the lack of any significant legislation will make it hard to deny that very little progress towards any stated campaign goals or agendas is taking place. Unless he manufactures a war, what exactly do you run on?

That's going to be the tough thing to answer right now. I think it can be done, he can face a challenger and lose out in 2020, but there will have to be a lot of cards fall in the right way.

It will be interesting to see if he ends up with an agenda that is more than just undoing what Obama did, because that seems to be all he is really concerned with. If he doesn't actually do something, then it will be a hard sell for him in 2020.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-10-2017, 12:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Has the movement transcended the individual himself or was it always just the natural evolution of the Tea Party turned Alt Right movement, and he was just a temporary figurehead for it?

I have to assume he has learned his lesson and, moving forward,  will back the Breitbart ordained candidate, otherwise he won't be the darling anymore. 

There's no telling what Trump will do, he's mercurial to the point of personifying the term.  As far as your first question, it's a bit of an evolution coupled with frustration at the lack of progress/results.  There is also absolutely a backlash against the left overreaching in the last few years.  Mind you, the left are not alone in this, both sides tend to overreach when they perceive themselves as having the upper hand.

(10-10-2017, 12:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: It doesn't matter.  To his supporters even when he loses he wins.  Even when he deletes the tweets supporting the guy who lost he wins.

It's amusing.  And sad.

Way to contribute, you really added a lot to the discussion. :andy:

(10-10-2017, 12:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The movement is frustration with the status quo on the right. It can't be about trying to pull the GOP to a more conservative path, which is what the Tea Party thing was about, because Trump isn't a conservative. So the real unifying theme between those two, and I think we do have to look at them together because without the TP movement, we wouldn't have the AR, is just anti-establishment thought. The movement is bigger than him, and he can be cast aside if he makes the wrong steps.

This is absolutely true.  He's a figurehead and he's attractive to them because he will say and do things other politicians wouldn't dream of.  For all his flaws he is the antitheses of the career politician, for good and ill, hence the attraction.  If he falls into the politician mold he will get buried in the next election.  If he stays true to form he has a very good chance at re-election.  One point I would add, it's not frustration with just the status quo on the right, it's frustration with the status quo period.  One of the main reasons Hillary lost is she personified the status quo.

(10-10-2017, 12:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The bulk of Republican voters are going to vote for the Republican no matter what. Same goes with Democrats for Democratic candidates. The AR or anti establishment bloc of the party was seemingly a plurality in the 2016 primary, but not a majority. So does a situation ever exist when a single challenger in the 2020 primary can come forward and unite more of the party together under effective leadership?

It could happen, it would take a special type of candidate though.  One who could combine Trump's dismissal of business as usual and actually speak to people honestly and openly.  Double talk is the bane of our current political system, no one will buck the party line or speak their mind if they think it will cost them one vote.  A candidate who has positions, can articulate them and stands by them on principle could absolutely unite more people under their banner.

Quote:At some point, Trump will run out of Obama executive orders to nullify and the lack of any significant legislation will make it hard to deny that very little progress towards any stated campaign goals or agendas is taking place. Unless he manufactures a war, what exactly do you run on?

We're two years out from primary season for 2020, that's an eternity in political time.  Even if the 2018 elections go badly for the GOP (by no means is this a fait accompli) they're not going to go well enough for the Dems to take either branch of Congress.  At some point even GOP congresspeople who oppose Trump's agenda are going to have to realize that getting anything done is better than getting nothing done and act accordingly.

[BmorePat87]

(10-10-2017, 12:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That's going to be the tough thing to answer right now. I think it can be done, he can face a challenger and lose out in 2020, but there will have to be a lot of cards fall in the right way.

It will be interesting to see if he ends up with an agenda that is more than just undoing what Obama did, because that seems to be all he is really concerned with. If he doesn't actually do something, then it will be a hard sell for him in 2020.

Kasich-Hickenlooper 2020... the dream of those who hold that America is still mostly a nation of moderates. 

[Belsnickel]

(10-10-2017, 01:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is absolutely true.  He's a figurehead and he's attractive to them because he will say and do things other politicians wouldn't dream of.  For all his flaws he is the antitheses of the career politician, for good and ill, hence the attraction.  If he falls into the politician mold he will get buried in the next election.  If he stays true to form he has a very good chance at re-election.  One point I would add, it's not frustration with just the status quo on the right, it's frustration with the status quo period.  One of the main reasons Hillary lost is she personified the status quo.

I don't deny that this exists, and the ones you got voting for Trump in this situation were the Bernie-Bros that went Trump in the general. For most of them, though, they didn't side with Trump. Of course, this is talking about people on the sides of the ideological spectrum.

There is also a group of people that just don't like whatever/whoever is in power. They aren't trying to turn the party one way or the other like the Bernie Bros, the Tea Party, or the Alt-Right work towards, they just want something different. This is where we see a lot of our Obama to Trump voters. They aren't party affiliates like the other groups, they just want something different.

All in all, we have a lot of segments all looking to buck the status quo, but all with different motivations and intentions.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-10-2017, 12:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Has the movement transcended the individual himself or was it always just the natural evolution of the Tea Party turned Alt Right movement, and he was just a temporary figurehead for it?

I have to assume he has learned his lesson and, moving forward,  will back the Breitbart ordained candidate, otherwise he won't be the darling anymore. 

Trump base isn't trump at all. It's just the republican economic nationalism/populism. Bannon left so he could support The movement by getting candidates elected. GOP establishment will get primaried.
He already said he is going after everyone but Cruz.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

It won't make any difference. If the golden shower tape comes out it will make Trump more and less popular simultaneously.