Politics and Religion
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Politics and Religion
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03-02-2021, 05:18 PM
(03-02-2021, 05:03 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Voltaire was saying those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. What attocities are currently occuring that belongs in the same type of dicsussion as those commited by the Nazi's.
03-02-2021, 05:23 PM
(03-02-2021, 05:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What attocities are currently occuring that belongs in the same type of dicsussion as those commited by the Nazi's. Time will tell. Imagine if they had succeeded the 6th january, it would have been a totally different song. They put a gallow out there and they wanted to hang the vice president, shoot the brain out to Nancy Pelosi and kill the squad ... but yeah let's talk about rhetoric ... If you don't like the word nazi, use "sith", this is the same parabol. I'm pointing out that these people are way more dangerous than you think but you are looking at my finger. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
03-02-2021, 05:30 PM
03-02-2021, 05:39 PM
(03-02-2021, 05:30 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Wow. I'm surprised someone from France would use the name "Hitler" and the word "Nazi" so thoughtlessly. THey didn't start with this ... It started way before with events like Charlottesville, a leader gaslighting everything and kind of events like the attack on the capitol and then came the war. They were in power for 6 years already. The only difference is that they succeeded. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 
03-02-2021, 05:48 PM
(03-02-2021, 03:28 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Those people would be considered as centrist in Europe I guess, you would rather not knowing our 'lefties' ! Jesus was an extremist. "Extremist" does not mean "good" or "bad". It just means the extreme in one direction. Giving up al worldly possessions is extreme.
03-02-2021, 05:56 PM
03-02-2021, 06:25 PM
(03-02-2021, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What attrocities were the Nazi committing in 1923? When you use the words "Hitler" and "Nazi" it elicits an obvious reaction of thought of terrible acts of cruelty and violence. If things progress to a point where an equal comparison can made, then by all means, it's worthy of discussion. But until then, it's absolutely absurd to introduce these into political discourse.
03-02-2021, 06:35 PM
(03-02-2021, 06:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: When you use the words "Hitler" and "Nazi" it elicits an obvious reaction of thought of terrible acts of cruelty and violence. Nah it's the mindset. You only read what you want to read. And yet, you didn't answer this mindset, you're pickering on a word because you still watch the finger. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 
03-02-2021, 06:48 PM
(03-02-2021, 12:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: I read that often, and it is something I do not fully understand. Who tells them that everything they are proud of is evil and wrong? Imho, that's not quite as dominant as you make it out to be. Well you won't get that much from the MSM. You are looking in the wrong place. Frequent watchers of Tucker and Hannity know very well that "the Left" tells their viewership that everything they are proud of is evil and wrong. That the left "hates" America, and all the stuff the right is proud of, is a frequent theme in rightwing books as well. https://www.amazon.com/Why-Left-Hates-America-Greatness/dp/1400080401 https://www.amazon.com.au/Why-LEFT-Hates-Trump-Peterson-ebook/dp/B01MCR55S9 They hate the nuclear family: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1AHyiJFoMs They even hate the humanities: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/09/higher-education-why-left-hates-humanties/ Not to mention the very founding of the U.S.: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/radical-left-founding-america-david-limbaugh So it's not so much that "the Left' tells the right that everything it is proud of is evil and wrong, as it is the right that tells the right that "the Left" tells them everything they are proud of is evil and wrong. ![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
03-02-2021, 06:53 PM
(03-02-2021, 06:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Well you won't get that much from the MSM. You are looking in the wrong place. These people always need ... an enemy. I might be a strange dude but I don't have enemies in my life. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
03-02-2021, 07:04 PM
(03-02-2021, 06:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: When you use the words "Hitler" and "Nazi" it elicits an obvious reaction of thought of terrible acts of cruelty and violence. Wes, here is what bothers me about reluctance to make historical comparisons between the U.S. and Nazi Germany. True, sometimes people are just throwing around analogies to Hitler as a kind of name-calling. But not always. It bothers me a great deal that the U.S. public at large knows so little about authoritarian politics and how authoritarians come to power in democracies, as is happening now frequently around the world (Orban, Putin, Erdogan, Duterte, Bolsonaro). So the point of "equal comparison" should not be when, if ever, the U.S. commits Nazi-scale atrocities, but long before that, when an authoritarian leader is dissing the press and all forms of authority except himself, enabled by a regime party which places his protection above the national interest, as he conflates rule of law with law and order, targets minorities, and promises to oust or replace an illegitimate government of "liberals" with real, authentic members of national community. 
03-02-2021, 07:38 PM
03-02-2021, 10:54 PM
The Germans weren't able to vote out Hitler after four years in 1937. I've seen Trump compared to Mussolini by the MSM more than Hitler. Some referred to him as Donaldito Trumpolini.
If all you know about the Nazis is what happened after the war started and think that Trump wasn't on a similar path, then I suggest reading more about his rise to power. Hitler didn't have Fox, OAN or Newsmax but he did have the extremely talented Josef Goebbels whose title was Minister Of Propaganda. They were honest about their lies. Basically, "It's my job to blow smoke up your ass by gaslighting."
Only users lose drugs.
:-)-~~~ 
03-02-2021, 11:09 PM
(03-02-2021, 04:32 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Bear in mind, when I'm using "clownish" I'm not using in a way to diminish (I don't view it as extremist > clownish). I just think that's a more accurate way to describe his personality, as are a lot of other words (egomaniac, selfish, phony, blowhard, etc.) I disagree with some of that. I apparently have to add that this does not mean I percieve you as defending Donald Trump or Capitol riots, or of being in a cult, or any of these things you feared I would. I didn't and I don't. I'm not sure how I gave you reason to believe I would. What I disagree on is this: Maybe Trump's policies are not that extreme (though I would have something to say about a family separation policy and then some), but his rhetorics were, his appeal was, his conduct was. He wasn't just an asshole. He was an asshole with particularly inflammatory rhetorics, a dangerous demagogue that had talked about all kinds of dark conspiracies, was deep into the birther lie and so on and so forth. You can't just take some similarities to Sanders and call him the same phenomena. There is a major, vast difference between the two, and you can't honestly compare a Trump situation to a Sanders situation and just leave this vast difference out or your argument. Or in short, if Bernie had acted and talked just like Trump, he would not have been so attractive. See also your last paragraph - a difference is still that Democrats did not vote an Antifa member their presidential nominee, and they would not do so. Republicans voted for Trump as their guy though - and apparently would do so again. Lastly, to claim Trump's appeal was from being honest... I might see why you would say that (he sure wasn't overly into PC for example), but still, he demonstrably is a habitual liar, about matters big and small, he lies constantly about everything. I see that as an observable truth that one really only can overlook if one deliberately ignores it.
03-02-2021, 11:39 PM
(03-02-2021, 03:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This is offensive. I agree with you that the word "fascist," when thrown at Trump or Trumpism, is largely distortive. I have argued this on other threads. It's like when the right calls people like Biden, Obama, and Hillary "the Left." But I also think that many--too many--Americans miss the authoritarian aspect of Trump's behavior. He is not simply "clownish." He is autocratic and antidemocratic. Wherever convenient, and with help from others, he has trashed democratic norms of governance. Think here of his obstructing the Russia investigation, replacing Sessions with Barr, who then actively intervened on behalf of Trumps friends. Think of how he punished whistleblowers and pardoned convicted criminals who protected him. Think of his appt. of the postmaster general who promptly degraded the Post Office's ability to handle mail in volume in the face of mass mail-in balloting. He actively sought to "steal" the election from Biden by lying and using his office to coerce and pressure others. Neither the phone call to the leader of the Ukraine nor to the Secretary of State of Georgia were "clownish." Nor was his tweet targeting of Pence during the Capitol riots. This leads me to another point. Are the mass of Democratic and Republican voters really just mirror images of one another if, after Jan. 6, 83% of Republicans believe the election was stolen from Trump? If, after all he has done, they want him to run again?
03-03-2021, 01:02 AM
(03-02-2021, 11:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: For one, since the topic is as such, I have to express my bewilderment about your politicians talking about faith and God and prayers so awfully much. Left and Right, everyone prays for every issue and every person and every enemy every minute of every day. This is just gross. But maybe I'm just used to more rationally arguing leaders. This is a common European observation, Hollo. These frequent references to God are to be expected, though, since we are God's chosen nation. No slight to any European nations. No doubt some Austrians will go to heaven too (if you support us). But the responsibility for maintaining that shining City upon the Hill is not on you. (03-02-2021, 11:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: There are many other examples, but this one should do to illustrate my point. To me, the US political struggle less and less looks like a battle of ideas or policies or ideology. It is a religious quarrel. People siding with Trump (not all conservatives, far from it) treat their affiliation as a religious commitment. One that does not need truth or facts or observable variables. Just faith. I think the emphasis on religion misses something here. You know we have frequently had threads in this forum on the issue of racism, white grievance, the 1619 project, and the like, but few on religion. That's because we are not really quarreling about religion. Here I am tempted to trot out an analogy closer to your European home. You are probably too young to remember the Historikerstreit in Germany back in the '80s. (I confess that as I write this, I am nursing a cup of Bourbon, our "spiritual" contribution to the world, so there may be lapses and unclarities.) In the early '80s, as Reagan, Thatcher and Kohl ascended the world stage to direct the politics of the "free world," certain German historians were fed up with what they perceived to be the unrelenting load of guilt imposed upon Germany since WWII for its fascist past, as much by Germans as by their former enemies. They complained about double standards regarding groups who had achieved the status of "permanent victimhood," and public figures who had to worry about being flagged for borderline anti-Semitic statements. Worse, a (real) left controlling German education paralyzed opposition to their anti-fascist curriculum by invoking national shame ("Never again!"). One historian, Ernest Nolte, argued that a nation without a past was capable of anything, and that role of historians was now to produce a history of the nation that young Germans could identify with and be proud of. They needed to step back into their role as center of Europe, anchor of NATO with Russian (Soviet) enemy still at the gates. The job of historians was then to take active part in producing affirmative national identity. (Real) leftist opponents like Juergen Habermas, claimed that Nolte, in his effort to create this affirmative national history, was lead to "normalize" Nazi genocide as one among many, distinguished only by its mass industrial use of gas, and to ignore a more fruitful path of healthy national identity offered by Germany's openness, since the war, to Western liberalism and constitutional government, and a pluralistic history appropriate to a free society, as opposed to an official national one tasked with producing a unitary and proud national identity. This is a rough analogy, but for Americans, the real debate right now is in great part a similar struggle over national identity, which for some requires putting to rest a national shame (slavery, segregation, systemic racism) by not talking about it anymore, instead remembering our "greatness," while their opponents want us to acknowledge that shame to move beyond it. Just as many Germans in '80s resented any connection to National Socialism, and felt "accused" whenever they complained of immigration or made anti-semitic comments, so many Americans today, born after the official end of segregation, are tired of hearing the U.S. founders were racists, that the U.S. is still racist, and that their ordinary conversation may include "racist" language. Like their German counterparts in the '80s, they are suspicious that a class of "permanent victims" has emerged, born after the legal dissolution of racist policy but claiming a now undeserved deference, a double standard protected by government policy and social practices such as "canceling." They are opposed by a "left" that wants a more open accounting for our national shame, recognition of how white supremacy has shaped and continues to shape life in the U.S., and policies which address their concerns. And that is why there is so much discussion of whether the U.S. is still "racist" and whether there is such a thing as "systemic racism," or whether we need history which makes us proud again. Both sides are religious. But one side, especially, views this contest through the prism of fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity which was politicized during the first decade of desegregation. Hence its reliance on faith over facts, its appeal to faith in a divinely appointed leader's will, not science, government, academia, or the press. But that is a contrast in methods, and not evidence of a properly "religious" quarrel. NB: Someone may pop up to remind me that not all Trump supporters are religious or fundamentalists, etc. I am not saying all of them are. I have elsewhere, on several threads, broken down the diversity of Trump support. I am just affirming the role of religion in the public ceremonies and statements of Trump and in the degree of uncritical "commitment" in what looks to be a majority of his supporters.
03-03-2021, 12:18 PM
(03-02-2021, 10:54 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: The Germans weren't able to vote out Hitler after four years in 1937. I've seen Trump compared to Mussolini by the MSM more than Hitler. Some referred to him as Donaldito Trumpolini. If you had actually educated yourself on the Nazi party's rise to power you'd know how completely flawed your attempts at comparison are. 
03-03-2021, 12:29 PM
(03-03-2021, 12:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you had actually educated yourself on the Nazi party's rise to power you'd know how completely flawed your attempts at comparison are. I found the one fascism expert's comparison of Trump to Berlusconi to be the most apt one out there, to be honest. The comparisons to Hitler's rise, and even Mussolini's, are not that close.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
03-03-2021, 12:37 PM
(03-03-2021, 12:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I found the one fascism expert's comparison of Trump to Berlusconi to be the most apt one out there, to be honest. The comparisons to Hitler's rise, and even Mussolini's, are not that close. I agree with that. They are somewhat similarly crude, have a similar disdain for constitutionality, a similar tendency to populism. The main difference I would see is that Berlusconi actually owns his friendly media, and that he is way, way smarter. But a thread opened by an Austrian apparently is bound to turn to Hitler and Nazis.
03-03-2021, 12:43 PM
(03-03-2021, 12:37 PM)hollodero Wrote: I agree with that. They are somewhat similarly crude, have a similar disdain for constitutionality, a similar tendency to populism. Shhh. Most of them don't know he was Austrian. 
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR |
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