Politics and Religion

[GMDino]

(03-03-2021, 08:53 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm in agreement with the bolded. 

I have several times questioned right wing takes on illegals voting and pizzagate, after which the posters disappeared. 

Some, like Lucy and Vlad, were banned for their own intemperate language.

Not everyone is really up for dialogue with people of different views. Difference = attack.
Some are just more comfortable in a bubble where beliefs can circulate unchallenged. 
A QAnon supporter might feel more comfortable in a forum where everyone already agrees what Hillary does with babies.

A narrative about "leftists" who bully rightists and chase them out of this forum could only prevail 
to the degree that forum members eschew any requirement for factual, citable grounding.

There is a question about what constitutes "bullying" as well. 
If merely advancing certain political arguments can be defined as bullying, then one has a tool 
for dismissing others views without addressing or actually refuting them. 

I'm certain it is what has been called "group think" where the "clique" all were accused of ganging up on one poster.  Never mind if the responses were on topic or simply to engage the poster.

There is a reason this part of the forum is harder to get in to...but easy to get out of.  

It's also why the topic of this thread resonates. At one time or another we will have are beliefs challenged. Some will take that as an opportunity to learn and grow and some will not. Trump supporters have shown over the last 4-5 years that they cannot learn or grow but rather they "know". And the nly believe what Trump says because it reinforces what they "know". That's another reason they are cult like.

[GMDino]

Another example:  They fear this impotent old man.  No rational human being would do this.

Trump repeatedly attacked Brian Kemp for not working to overturn the election results for him, called for his resignation and even gave a speech in Georgia saying he'd campaign against him, but here's Kemp just now on Fox News saying he'd support Trump in 2024 anyway pic.twitter.com/NN5z9aYalr

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) March 3, 2021

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Anyone else find it fascinating that once the topic turned to people being bullied off the forum by certain members, who were not named, that three certain members immediately felt the need to respond?

Pepperidge Farm does.

[Dill]

(03-03-2021, 08:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'm certain it is what has been called "group think" where the "clique" all were accused of ganging up on one poster.  Never mind if the responses were on topic or simply to engage the poster.

There is a reason this part of the forum is harder to get in to...but easy to get out of.  

It's also why the topic of this thread resonates.  At one time or another we will have are beliefs challenged.  Some will take that as an opportunity to learn and grow and some will not.  Trump supporters have shown over the last 4-5 years that they cannot learn or grow but rather they "know".  And the nly believe what Trump says because it reinforces what they "know".  That's another reason they are cult like.

I think I remember the "clique" incident. The problem with calling that "bullying" though is that sometimes people say things
that 3-4 other people, operating independently of one another, quickly disagree with.  A guy who just thought he was responding
to one guy suddenly finds himself accused of ganging that one guy. Or have I mis-remembered?

Seems to me that any definition of bullying behavior ought to include frequent ad hominem. Three or four guys
throwing nasty names at one person would certainly be ganging.

Mere expression of dissenting or unpopular views impersonally expressed about general topics should not be defined as in themselves insulting, even if others choose to leave the forum because exposed to such views.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(03-03-2021, 08:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still waiting for one single specific example of a member who stopped posting here because he was bullied by liberals.

I'm assuming that most of the "bullying" that he claims happened was basically a Conservative that believes what Fox News told them and then parroted it here. After being repeatedly corrected, they were shocked and offended that people didn't see his/her statements as indisputable facts and said "screw this, I'm out of here." as they then went in search of an echo chamber to feel better about themselves and their views.

It's as if there are more Liberals and Independents than there are Republicans. Maybe having a "You either agree with me or you're against me" while not being flexible in the slightest isn't the best way to go about things. Or am I being a bully?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-03-2021, 09:32 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I'm assuming that most of the "bullying" that he claims happened was basically a Conservative that believes what Fox News told them and then parroted it here. After being repeatedly corrected, they were shocked and offended that people didn't see his/her statements as indisputable facts and said "screw this, I'm out of here." as they then went in search of an echo chamber to feel better about themselves and their views.

It's as if there are more Liberals and Independents than there are Republicans. Maybe having a "You either agree with me or you're against me" while not being flexible in the slightest isn't the best way to go about things. Or am I being a bully?

You weren't here so don't assume.  Aside from Lucie/Vlad, who was the same person, all the conservative leaning posters stopped posting here because they got tired of the being endlessly harangued by the same people.  I know this because I observed it happening and they flat out told me.  I get you're a more left leaning person, but you shouldn't speculate about what you have no information or experience about.

BTW, ask Fred about the time he offered to have sex with Lucie's underage daughter.  Be careful about where you plant your flag.

[GMDino]

Something that popped on on FB tonight that seems to deal with the topic at hand.




Hitler had him killed for his outspokenness.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Dietrich-Bonhoeffer

...and helping to plot an assasination attempt. 

[GMDino]

(03-03-2021, 09:32 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I'm assuming that most of the "bullying" that he claims happened was basically a Conservative that believes what Fox News told them and then parroted it here. After being repeatedly corrected, they were shocked and offended that people didn't see his/her statements as indisputable facts and said "screw this, I'm out of here." as they then went in search of an echo chamber to feel better about themselves and their views.

It's as if there are more Liberals and Independents than there are Republicans. Maybe having a "You either agree with me or you're against me" while not being flexible in the slightest isn't the best way to go about things. Or am I being a bully?

Disagreement is not bullying.  

Like I said, and as it relates to the OP, some cannot accept a challenge to their beliefs so they create whatever it takes to defend what in their own minds is the absolute truth.  Some use religion.  Some just lie.  

Blatantly lying about another poster is a good example of that.

[Dill]

(03-03-2021, 09:32 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I'm assuming that most of the "bullying" that he claims happened was basically a Conservative that believes what Fox News told them and then parroted it here. After being repeatedly corrected, they were shocked and offended that people didn't see his/her statements as indisputable facts and said "screw this, I'm out of here." as they then went in search of an echo chamber to feel better about themselves and their views.

It's as if there are more Liberals and Independents than there are Republicans. Maybe having a "You either agree with me or you're against me" while not being flexible in the slightest isn't the best way to go about things. Or am I being a bully?

Not a bad guess, probably.

I think Dino and Hollo covered this well enough. But its hard to say for sure we are all talking about the same thing, since no one is providing links or actual quotes. 

The "clique" thing is kind of a red herring though. Could one say Arturo was just bullied off this thread because multiple people disagreed with him. But I don't say that.

I found this link to a spinoff thread, with some still good advice, as far as it goes.
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-I-think-this-is-a-good-idea?pid=879700&highlight=clique#pid879700

BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm not sure who the whole clique is, but some posters feed off of other posters. It's mutual and it causes threads to derail and the civility to crumble. It's not just one group. 
It starts with intentional trolling, though. Snark and shitty posts here and there are one thing, but when your whole purpose is to just troll then that causes issues. As soon as someone does, just stop responding to them. Don't take the bait. That's what they want and it feeds them. If enough people took this approach then we'd have less problems. 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(03-03-2021, 09:39 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You weren't here so don't assume.  Aside from Lucie/Vlad, who was the same person, all the conservative leaning posters stopped posting here because they got tired of the being endlessly harangued by the same people.  I know this because I observed it happening and they flat out told me.  I get you're a more left leaning person, but you shouldn't speculate about what you have no information or experience about.

BTW, ask Fred about the time he offered to have sex with Lucie's underage daughter.  Be careful about where you plant your flag.

You're correct that I'm assuming . . . However . . .

This is not the only sub-forum dealing with politics that I've posted on
The discussions here are pretty much exactly in line with those other forums
Those other forums have posters that pretty much only posted on the political forums
The Conservatives did more assuming than anyone else and whined/threw fits when proven wrong


Unless someone's analogy fits exactly step for step for what they're comparing it to, you love to disregard it as not being rational or not the same so don't bother trying.

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-03-2021, 09:32 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I'm assuming that most of the "bullying" that he claims happened was basically a Conservative that believes what Fox News told them and then parroted it here. After being repeatedly corrected, they were shocked and offended that people didn't see his/her statements as indisputable facts and said "screw this, I'm out of here." as they then went in search of an echo chamber to feel better about themselves and their views.

This paragraph pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how much time I want to spend here. (Answer: Not much)

Fwiw, I consider myself pretty moderate. Of course, to describe myself as such it means I hold some conservative viewpoints. I rather not share any of them here though if they're going to be interpreted as being mainly influenced by Fox News (basically that I've put no thought into them) and that they need correcting (I thought this was somewhere for conversation)

Judging from what I've seen in my short time perusing this part of the site, I'd say it's pretty rich for you to use the term echo chamber.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to miss out topics like those facists deliberately builing a stage out of a nazi symbol. (What a shame).

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(03-04-2021, 12:20 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This paragraph pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how much time I want to spend here. (Answer: Not much)

Soooooo . . .  nailed it?

You do realize that is was a response to past Conservatives leaving because they felt that they were bullied out of here, right? Or was I supposed to be more concerned for the "Trump 2020 - **** your feelings" crowd?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-03-2021, 11:46 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: You're correct that I'm assuming . . . However . . .

This is not the only sub-forum dealing with politics that I've posted on
The discussions here are pretty much exactly in line with those other forums
Those other forums have posters that pretty much only posted on the political forums
The Conservatives did more assuming than anyone else and whined/threw fits when proven wrong

Well, this could be for the reasons you state, or it could be that you participate in forums that confirm your particular view of things.  I really come from an old school internet perspective, one that was lightly, if at all, moderated.  I highly doubt many of the posters here could hack that environment.  That being said, you admit you have no basis for your assumption other than the anecdotal.  I suppose you can start from this point and make your assumptions here, but there's really no regular conservative posters here for you to start a comparison.  One would have to wonder why that is.  When I started here well over ten years ago, the mix was pretty even.  I'd even definitively say the conservative posters were the more toxic ones, in general, at that time.  That is no longer the case.  Interestingly enough, this very thread should give you a fair amount of evidence of that.

Quote:Unless someone's analogy fits exactly step for step for what they're comparing it to, you love to disregard it as not being rational or not the same so don't bother trying.

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

I can't disagree in many instances.  However, the exact same could be accurately said for many of the far left posters here.  I suppose it may be a matter of perception, but given all I've seen I don't think that's the case.  We have some excellent posters here, which is the only reason I still post here, and we have a hard core of far left posters who mistakenly believe they are remotely fair or dissimilar to what they claim to despise.  Like I said earlier, be careful where you plant your flag.  Also, on that note, a dissembler here tried to insinuate that I was being untruthful about another poster.  I don't lie, and the vast majority of posters here will back that.  Given that fact, consider the company you choose to keep.  Or don't.  At the end of the day it doesn't really change anything.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-04-2021, 12:20 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This paragraph pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how much time I want to spend here. (Answer: Not much)

Fwiw, I consider myself pretty moderate.  Of course, to describe myself as such it means I hold some conservative viewpoints.  I rather not share any of them here though if they're going to be interpreted as being mainly influenced by Fox News (basically that I've put no thought into them) and that they need correcting (I thought this was somewhere for conversation)

Judging from what I've seen in my short time perusing this part of the site, I'd say it's pretty rich for you to use the term echo chamber.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to miss out topics like those facists deliberately builing a stage out of a nazi symbol. (What a shame).

It'd be better if you stayed. I've seen a pattern of people who "hold some conservative viewpoints" getting upset and posting less or stopping all together. Its almost like they are a certain winter weather phenomenon, here one day and gone the next.

Idk how you can call it an echo chamber when we have stuff like "Biden said the N word" "Aliens" and "Why I don't like the Equality Act" as recent threads.

That's the whole point of this sub forum and why it is password protected. These are touchy subjects. Don't get butt hurt.

[NATI BENGALS]

As to the OP. I don't think it is a coincidence that you would find the majority of non-religious individuals vote democrat. That's not a fact, just an educated guess.

However, with the broke ass two party system there are plenty of people who "religiously" follow and support Democrats and look at Republicans as the evil side. After witnessing the last 4 years the number of people who "religiously" support Democrats has probably grown quite a bit.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(03-04-2021, 12:20 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This paragraph pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how much time I want to spend here. (Answer: Not much)

Fwiw, I consider myself pretty moderate.  Of course, to describe myself as such it means I hold some conservative viewpoints.  I rather not share any of them here though if they're going to be interpreted as being mainly influenced by Fox News (basically that I've put no thought into them) and that they need correcting (I thought this was somewhere for conversation)

Judging from what I've seen in my short time perusing this part of the site, I'd say it's pretty rich for you to use the term echo chamber.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to miss out topics like those facists deliberately builing a stage out of a nazi symbol. (What a shame).

Well you're making more out of my post than was intended

I was speaking of the past, even though I wasn't here at that time, and speaking with someone else.
I was going off of my experiences of dealing with Conservatives from around that time when there was no OAN or Newsmax so I used Fox as a reference.
Most of the blowups that I've seen were from people believing everything Fox said, even though they would(and still do) push theories after they have been de-bunked or corrected. When the posters were corrected while parroting mis-information, they took it as a personal attack or an attack on their religious beliefs if it involved science.

I'm not a Democrat but I've admitted to leaning left, not because the Dems appeal to me, but because I have feared the right for around two decades.

I'm not a fan of the complete embracing of "the gays". I find the Baktarvy(sp?) commercial with the two guys kissing at the end to be disgusting and, like Trump, they're pushing to see how far they can go for future messages.

I don't like the "Anchor Baby" set-up where an American knocks up a foreigner or vise versa, the child is born here and now here comes every Aunt and Uncle, every Cousin and every Grandparent. I laugh when people complain how the area where they live is becoming too diverse for them. Try living in Anchorage Alaska sometime. It's very much like Portland. A liberal oasis and 15 miles outside of it is straight up Rednekistan for hundreds of miles. I live in Anchorage and run a radio station 45 miles north that I may have to wind up selling. ANYBODY outside of Anchorage that speaks ill of Trump (who was a lifelong Democrat until Obama became President) is considered a commie piece of shit.

I own land 165 miles and 215 miles south of Anchorage and it is straight up MAGA country with Confederate flags flying every 2 or 3 miles on the highway in the populated areas including at a restaurant next to a popular campground. If it weren't for music(I started up a friend's radio station there almost a decade ago), weed and my home brew(most of my friends there work at breweries), I doubt any of them would talk to me at all and I've been an Independent since I registered to vote in 1986. But with today's modern day Republicans, it's "you're either 95-100% with me or **** you"

I can't handle the Vagenda at CNN and almost all of MSNBC is too one sided for me. I find Fox, OAN and Newsmax to be embarrassingly ridiculous and an insult to journalism. It's not the facts they say, it's the facts that they conveniently choose to leave out that bothers me. PBS Newshour and BBC America are the closest to the old school news that I grew up on and they're both more left leaning than right but I try to watch a little bit of all of them that I can find.

I have no problem with most conservatism but I can't handle bullshit that people wish to be true or religion based politics. If they taxed the churches, then I'd have no problem with religion based politics. Until that day, I'm very much in agreement with separation of church and state.

Most of the people here have already read my stances, I'm not sure what you're afraid of discussing here. It's just an internet pseudonym. Create a second account or an alt-nym strictly for this forum if you're concerned about your username or your views being attacked.

[Dill]

(03-04-2021, 12:20 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This paragraph pretty much tells me everything I need to know about how much time I want to spend here. (Answer: Not much)

Fwiw, I consider myself pretty moderate.  Of course, to describe myself as such it means I hold some conservative viewpoints.  I rather not share any of them here though if they're going to be interpreted as being mainly influenced by Fox News (basically that I've put no thought into them) and that they need correcting (I thought this was somewhere for conversation)
Judging from what I've seen in my short time perusing this part of the site, I'd say it's pretty rich for you to use the term echo chamber.
Oh well, I guess I'll have to miss out topics like those facists deliberately builing a stage out of a nazi symbol. (What a shame).

I am a little puzzled here, Wes.

You started a thread titled "Why I am Not a Fan of the Equality Act" which I thought a good beginning in this forum, as you looked ready to articulate your views on a subject beyond soundbite level. Your fifth and several succeeding posts suggest you were getting substantive responses your questions, though not all appreciated how carefully worded and sincerely expressed they were. You re-explained yourself at several points to help others understand your views. (Yes, I read all your posts, though I chose not to participate in that thread. The topic did not interest me, but the careful articulation did.)

If that is not a good beginning here, then I am not sure what you were looking for, what your standards are.

Though I may be the only poster here who admits to watching Fox with any regularity, I am what passes for a "far left" poster in this forum, and like you, I like to push my posts beyond the soundbite level. If people have questions about positions I take I am always happy to answer them.  You can see that on this thread. And I never engage in personal abuse.

Still, I am repeatedly called a "liar," "hypocrite" and "intellectually dishonest" on virtually every thread I contribute to, including this one, and by the same poster who'd have us believe rightists are chased off by "bullying." (I'm "overly sensitive," he says in his defense.) Other lefties get the same treatment, also without returning the abuse in kind. Yet I can only think of one who MAY have left because of it.

So the whole leftists-bully-right-wingers-off-the-forum thing seems to me just an attempt to define reasonable disagreement as bullying while ignoring the kind of toxic behavior which actually and directly undermines honest and respectful discussion of political topics. 

If I understand Vinyl, he claims to have seen right wing posters on other forums bail because they presented views uncritically gleaned from sources like Fox News, and then disappeared because their views were challenged, not because they were bullied. I think he should be able to at least raise the question of whether it is really bullying, or just the challenge of opposing views, which drives right wing posters from forums like this, and if someone bolted merely because he did, that might corroborate his claim.

I won't cede the forum to bad actors and I hope posters other political persuasions will follow me on that. If we want a forum that isn't an echo chamber then people of all persuasions have to speak respectfully to one another. That doesn't include the requirement that others not challenge one's views, which is what defining challenge as "bullying" amounts to. I'd further suggest a distinction between fair (i.e., substantive) challenges as opposed to mere accusations, which are generally deployed without support to disrupt dialogue, not further it. These are not "right" or "left" standards.

[Dill]

(03-04-2021, 05:46 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: As to the OP. I don't think it is a coincidence that you would find the majority of non-religious individuals vote democrat. That's not a fact, just an educated guess.

However, with the broke ass two party system there are plenty of people who "religiously" follow and support Democrats and look at Republicans as the evil side. After witnessing the last 4 years the number of people who "religiously" support Democrats has probably grown quite a bit.

Not sure "religiously" is the right word here, since it looks like the majority of Dem voters support Biden because he was not Trump.

If someone claimed he went Buddhist because Buddha wasn't Jesus, we wouldn't think him especially religious.

https://news.vcu.edu/article/Biden_voters_more_likely_to_be_voting_against_Trump_than_for

[GMDino]

If anyone comes in here and doesn't expect they will be challenged or wrong sooner or later they didn't want to discuss anything they wanted to chant slogans and then claim victimhood.  That's why I say "cult" when I talk about the intense love for Trump.  If someone is not open to discussion and new information they are just trying to recruit.


That even the long time posters feel free to outright lie about other posters might be a reason to avoid this forum but even with that they can be ignored and actual discussions can be held.

[fredtoast]

(03-03-2021, 09:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Anyone else find it fascinating that once the topic turned to people being bullied off the forum by certain members, who were not named, that three certain members immediately felt the need to respond?

Pepperidge Farm does.

Anyone else find it fascinsting that the person sqealing about bullies still has not provided a single specific example to back up his false claim?