Prison Reform

[GMDino]

I wanted to add this to the other thread but it is locked and the one from 2017 is, well, it's from 2107.

Anyway 500 prisoners released in Oklahoma and the POTUS, who considers Prison Reform one of his chining moments tweeted this today:

So sad to see what is happening in New York where Governor Cuomo & Mayor DeBlasio are letting out 900 Criminals, some hardened & bad, onto the sidewalks of our rapidly declining, because of them, city. The Radical Left Dems are killing our cities. NYPD Commissioner is resigning!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 5, 2019

 


Small problem with his hot take: 




https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2019/11/04/new-state-law-could-release-hundreds-of-nyc-inmates

Quote:NEW YORK - Nearly 900 inmates in city jails could reportedly be released before the state's bail-reform law takes effect in the new year.


The law hits the books on January 1 and drops bail for people charged with a variety of misdemeanors and felonies.


The New York Post says the law is retroactive, which means current inmates could request that their bail be lifted, which would let them go free.


The paper also says that once people are freed from jail, the Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice will offer things like baseball tickets and gift cards to make sure they show up for court dates.


The mayor's office tells the Post that the city has an award-winning supervised release program that produces high rates of return to court.


It says it expects that to continue after the state law takes effect.


The Office of Court Administration says they are developing a plan to stagger the release of defendants starting in mid-December.



However, it also says some defedants may not be released, as "if a judge feels that it was necessary to make certain securing orders effective Jan. 1, 2020, they certainly retain the discretion to do so."

So I have a couple thoughts.


One being that there is a problem when the POTUS thinks holds the "thought" that people simply being held on bail are: 

Quote:900 Criminals, some hardened & bad

Two he obviously doesn't understand the law.  And lastly this goes back to the Central Park 5 where Trump believes he knows who is "really" guilty and who isn't.  That's scary when he's just an old guy buying full page ads let alone when he's out there trying to punish anyone he disagrees with him.


And this isn't (from me) an argument if the law is good or bad, just that you elected a man who is clueless but very opinionated.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-05-2019, 11:26 AM)GMDino Wrote: And this isn't (from me) an argument if the law is good or bad, just that you elected a man who is clueless but very opinionated.

So, you don't want to discuss the prison or bail reform being discussed in these articles, you just want to point out, again, that you don't like Trump?

[GMDino]

(11-05-2019, 11:41 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, you don't want to discuss the prison or bail reform being discussed in these articles, you just want to point out, again, that you don't like Trump?

Wow, nothing gets by you sir! Except the point I guess.  

I wanted to point out that Prison Reform is something that Trump is proud of doing in a bipartisan manner...and then he attacked New York for their prison reform measures.

I did not say I "don't like Trump" (I think everyone knows that without me or you bringing it up).   Rather than an emotional response (that's a hint) I used what Trump says and does to demonstrate that he was wrong and it was a strange attack from him based on other things he said.  

Would you like to offer a rebuttal or just continue to whatever it is you were doing in your response? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-05-2019, 11:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: Wow, nothing gets by you sir! Except the point I guess.  

I wanted to point out that Prison Reform is something that Trump is proud of doing in a bipartisan manner...and then he attacked New York for their prison reform measures.

Except that could be completely valid criticism.  Letting out pre screened, non-violent, prisoners is not the same as eliminating the cash bail system and moving solely to a remand or OR system.  Sooooooo, it's completely possible to be for one type of Criminal Justice reform and be vehemently opposed to another without a hint of hypocrisy.

Quote:I did not say I "don't like Trump" (I think everyone knows that without me or you bringing it up).   Rather than an emotional response (that's a hint) I used what Trump says and does to demonstrate that he was wrong and it was a strange attack from him based on other things he said.  

Except it wasn't.

Quote:Would you like to offer a rebuttal or just continue to whatever it is you were doing in your response? 

Oh, you actually wanted a rebuttal?  Your post indicated otherwise.

[GMDino]

(11-05-2019, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except that could be completely valid criticism.  Letting out pre screened, non-violent, prisoners is not the same as eliminating the cash bail system and moving solely to a remand or OR system.  Sooooooo, it's completely possible to be for one type of Criminal Justice reform and be vehemently opposed to another without a hint of hypocrisy.



Except it wasn't.


Oh, you actually wanted a rebuttal?  Your post indicated otherwise.

I didn't explicitly ask for one...any time something is posted on the board others have an opportunity to post their own opinions on the stories...but it would have been preferable to whatever it is you are doing. 

[Belsnickel]

So, prison reform and bail reform are two different things under the overarching umbrella of criminal justice reform. I may be wrong in my thinking, but I don't recall Trump ever talking about bail reform, which would make sense. The biggest issues with the cash bail system are that it creates a system in which the poor are punished more harshly than the wealthy, which Trump likely gets his jollies off being in favor of. Now, it does concern me that the commentary regarding this is what it is, because labeling someone a criminal before they have been found guilty, which would be anyone remanded due to lack of bail, is unfair and un-American. It also runs the risk of being brought up in trial for any of these individuals as undue influence on their cases in the courtroom.

I'm all for eliminating cash bail, and Trump's commentary is bullshit, but this isn't really inconsistent with his positions as far as I know.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2019, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except that could be completely valid criticism.  Letting out pre screened, non-violent, prisoners is not the same as eliminating the cash bail system and moving solely to a remand or OR system.  Sooooooo, it's completely possible to be for one type of Criminal Justice reform and be vehemently opposed to another without a hint of hypocrisy.

Is that a risk based system? I know that risk assessment models are often brought up as an alternative to cash bail (which, yes, in theory cash bail is also based on risk so this just takes the cash out of it). I'm just unfamiliar with the term you used here.

[Dill]

(11-05-2019, 11:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: I wanted to point out that Prison Reform is something that Trump is proud of doing in a bipartisan manner...and then he attacked New York for their prison reform measures.

The original tweet says nothing about bail reform--just pictures liberals releasing hundreds of "prisoners."

Unless there were previous or following tweets offering more context, that single tweet is clearly an invitation to jump to a conclusion about liberals and criminals and everyone's personal safety. Some who follow the NY news probably understood what he was referring to.

I get the impression you think that a president should 1) know more about the law and 2) not use his twitter account to disinform.

Not sure that is the majority view anymore. 

What would you say to someone who thinks that "we already know Trump" when he tweets stuff like this, the implication being this is no news, really. Do you think his rage/disinformation tweets should continue to be discussed/noted when they occur?  I can see why Trump supporters/defenders would like to see that stop, but is there a rational for continued reporting/discusssion of almost daily Trump bad behavior?

Or put another way, is there really a rationale for NOT reporting/discussing such behavior when it occurs on the ground that "he does it all the time" and "its old news"? A rationale which does not blame the messenger?   I lean towards continued monitoring . . . .

[fredtoast]

Shame that NYPD Commissioner O'Neill is having to resign just because he fired the cop that killed Eric Garner (costing the city of $5 million). O'Neill was doing a great job restoring the bond between police and the minority communities, but hi sown officers and their union tuned against him over the firing.

[fredtoast]

And, as usual Trump shows what a clueless clown he is by calling people who have not been convicted of a crime "criminals".

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-05-2019, 02:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Is that a risk based system? I know that risk assessment models are often brought up as an alternative to cash bail (which, yes, in theory cash bail is also based on risk so this just takes the cash out of it). I'm just unfamiliar with the term you used here.

Sorry, you get used to knowing all the acronyms we use.  OR is own recognizance.  CA is trying to eliminate cash bail entirely and go to either remanding, release on electronic monitoring or OR release as being the only options.  I believe NY state is also moving in that direction.  The prediction is that it's going to result in a rise on remanding because now even those accused of a violent crime can get cash bail, albeit in high amounts.  Eliminating that is predicted to result in judges erring more on the side of remanding rather than releasing with no collateral assurance of return.  It's also causing a lot of concern among victim's rights groups that violent attackers will be more likely to be released and cause further harm to the victim.  Unfortunately victim rights don't rate very high on the agenda of CA politicians.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2019, 05:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sorry, you get used to knowing all the acronyms we use.  OR is own recognizance.  CA is trying to eliminate cash bail entirely and go to either remanding, release on electronic monitoring or OR release as being the only options.  I believe NY state is also moving in that direction.  The prediction is that it's going to result in a rise on remanding because now even those accused of a violent crime can get cash bail, albeit in high amounts.  Eliminating that is predicted to result in judges erring more on the side of remanding rather than releasing with no collateral assurance of return.  It's also causing a lot of concern among victim's rights groups that violent attackers will be more likely to be released and cause further harm to the victim.  Unfortunately victim rights don't rate very high on the agenda of CA politicians.

Ok, that makes sense. Well, the acronym, not necessarily the system. There really should be an assessment on these sorts of things like a point system. "Domestic violence accusation: 5 points towards remand; Has a passport: 2 points towards remand; First offender: -5 points towards remand" or something like that. I'm sure studies could be done on correlating factors for people that are more or less likely to commit crimes or skip town when released.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-05-2019, 05:44 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Ok, that makes sense. Well, the acronym, not necessarily the system. There really should be an assessment on these sorts of things like a point system. "Domestic violence accusation: 5 points towards remand; Has a passport: 2 points towards remand; First offender: -5 points towards remand" or something like that. I'm sure studies could be done on correlating factors for people that are more or less likely to commit crimes or skip town when released.

Doesn't sound bad, so long as catching someone committing the violent crime happening always automatically means remanding.

I'm fine with any kind of point system like that so long as we don't have to pretend that while people like Dylan Roof hadn't been convicted and found guilty yet by a jury when he was first arrested, that he was nowhere near innocent.

Never understood why there wasn't a normal death penalty, and then a fast-tracked death penalty for people who obviously did that shit with hundreds of witnesses and/or on camera. It took Roof 7 months just to get his initial sentencing. SEVEN MONTHS. He was sentenced to Federal execution nearly 2 years and 10 months ago and it'll be years or decades until it's finally done.

(Sorry, a bit of a tangent there, but figured the Prison Reform thread would be a good place for it at least.)

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-05-2019, 05:44 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Ok, that makes sense. Well, the acronym, not necessarily the system. There really should be an assessment on these sorts of things like a point system. "Domestic violence accusation: 5 points towards remand; Has a passport: 2 points towards remand; First offender: -5 points towards remand" or something like that. I'm sure studies could be done on correlating factors for people that are more or less likely to commit crimes or skip town when released.

(11-05-2019, 08:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Doesn't sound bad, so long as catching someone committing the violent crime happening always automatically means remanding.

I'm fine with any kind of point system like that so long as we don't have to pretend that while people like Dylan Roof hadn't been convicted and found guilty yet by a jury when he was first arrested, that he was nowhere near innocent.

Never understood why there wasn't a normal death penalty, and then a fast-tracked death penalty for people who obviously did that shit with hundreds of witnesses and/or on camera. It took Roof 7 months just to get his initial sentencing. SEVEN MONTHS. He was sentenced to Federal execution nearly 2 years and 10 months ago and it'll be years or decades until it's finally done.

(Sorry, a bit of a tangent there, but figured the Prison Reform thread would be a good place for it at least.)

What you describe already exists, but it takes place prior to seeing a judge.  At least it does here in CA.  Trust me when I say the system leans towards letting people out.  There are several areas of criminal justice reform that have taken place of late that I think are excellent ideas.  Decriminalizing prostitution and treating the women, and men, as victims instead of criminals is a great change.  I think the softening of our laws on marijuana, and to a lesser extent other drug possession, is a great idea, look at Oklahoma for a recent example.


What I really despise is the trend towards leniency for offenses like burglary, gun possession, vandalism, etc.  California has numerous ways the state government flat out lies to the citizens about their programs.  AB109 claims to only release non-violent offenders early.  However, they only count the offense the person is currently incarcerated for.  A guy could have five ADW convictions (or dismissals with Harvey waivers) and be in prison for burglary and be released as a non-violent offender.  The move from cash bail makes sense in many ways, it clearly favors the wealthy, but replacing it with a system that frees most criminals to continue offending or subsequently terrorize the victim does not, at all.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Rather telling that once OP's agenda was shot to hell and the topic actually discussed they completely abandoned their own thread.

[GMDino]

(11-06-2019, 03:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Rather telling that once OP's agenda was shot to hell and the topic actually discussed they completely abandoned their own thread.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-06-2019, 03:51 PM)GMDino Wrote:

Oh GM, all the gifs on the internet can't cover for your hiking up your skirt and bailing on this thread once your agenda was shot full of holes.