Prisoner Strikes

[Belsnickel]

We often discuss slavery as if the institution has been eradicated from this country. However, one of the most commonly overlooked pieces of the 13th Amendment is that slavery is abolished unless it is "a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted." Now, there are many prisons where the workers get paid, but it is a tiny amount, often involuntary, and so it might as well be slavery.

Starting tomorrow, many incarcerated workers are planning to go on strike. It is hard to say what impact this will have and how widespread this will actually be, but from 21 August to 09 September, this strike is planned.

From a Vox article on the planned strike:

Quote:There’s no hard estimate for how many inmates and prisons are taking part in the protests, as organizers continue to recruit more and more inmates and word of mouth spreads. But demonstrations are expected across at least 17 states.

The inmates will take part in work strikes, hunger strikes, and sit-ins. They are also calling for boycotts against agencies and companies that benefit from prisons and prison labor.

“The main leverage that an inmate has is their own body,” Sawari said. “If they choose not to go to work and just sit in in the main area or the eating area, and all the prisoners choose to sit there and not go to the kitchen for lunchtime or dinnertime, if they choose not to clean or do the yardwork, this is the leverage that they have. Prisons cannot run without prisoners’ work.”

While 2016’s protests were largely planned for just September 9 (then the 45th anniversary of the Attica uprising), they ended up taking part over weeks or months as prison officials tried to tamp down the demonstrations and mitigate the effects of the protests. This year, the protests are spread out over three weeks to make it more difficult for prison officials to crack down.

The inmates have outlined 10 national demands. They include “immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons” and “an immediate end to prison slavery.” They also target federal laws that boosted mass incarceration and have made it harder for inmates to sue officials for potential rights violations. And they call for an end to racial disparities in the criminal justice system and an increase to rehabilitation programs in prisons.

The demands are on top of specific local and regional asks that prisoners are making. For example, Sawari said, in South Carolina they’re also focused on getting prisoners the right to vote — and, of course, improving conditions in the state that helped inspire this year’s protests.

This is the first I have heard of this, and I never heard about the 2016 protests. This just crossed my Twitter feed literally about ten minutes ago. What impact, if any, do you think this will have? Do you support any of the demands being laid out?

PRESS RELEASE:

NATIONAL PRISON STRIKE AUGUST 21-SEPTEMBER 9TH, 2018 pic.twitter.com/Mzbb4e96yp

— Jailhouse Lawyers Speak #August21 (@JailLawSpeak) April 24, 2018

What do you think will be the response from correctional facilities and do you think we will ever hear about it?

[*michaelsean*]

I thought a most prisons work was voluntary, but I think a prison has the right to make you do something. If not work then attend classes etc. I’m all for prisons not being shitholes and I’m sure a fair amount of their grievances are legit, but I think it’s ok that they be required to do more than sit around all day. That’s a recipe for trouble.

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-20-2018, 09:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I thought a most prisons work was voluntary, but I think a prison has the right to make you do something. If not work then attend classes etc. I’m all for prisons not being shitholes and I’m sure a fair amount of their grievances are legit, but I think it’s ok that they be required to do more than sit around all day. That’s a recipe for trouble.

I dont have a problem with forced labor. Prison is supposed to be shitty. I do have a problem with companies profiting on incarceration. And they do in a lot of different ways. 

[*bfine32*]

If they don't do as instructed then the hunger strike should not be optional. I would also aide them in striking hot water.

[Benton]

I was sorta talking about this tonight.

Not about the strike. First I've heard of it. But just about the cost of inmates.

One of the counties I cover has a weird spot. It's got two prisons, one of which is the state's only maximum security men's prison. Those count in the census, and have a negligible tax impact, outside of the fact that the state owns the properties and the county receives $0. But it's also the intersection of two interstates which have a high amount of drug trafficking, so the county ends up housing a lot of inmates until they get tried, picking up the tab for their healthcare, food, etc. I was talking to some of the county officials and they estimate the citations from the interstates alone is around 8,000 a year, with about 2,000 drug arrests, each one costing taxpayers thousands of dollars.

That's a pretty big burden on the county.

But it's kind of ironic that the county saves at least close to six figures by using inmate labor. Which still has costs associated.

Anyway, on topic, I don't have any problem with using inmate labor. I think we need to have a lot fewer inmates, though. We've got far too many laws, and too often the answer to a problem is to just incarcerate people. Which makes no sense sometimes (mainly referring to drug and nonviolent offenses).

[Dill]

(08-20-2018, 08:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is the first I have heard of this, and I never heard about the 2016 protests. This just crossed my Twitter feed literally about ten minutes ago. What impact, if any, do you think this will have? Do you support any of the demands being laid out?

I support most of the demands.  Ex felons should be able to vote. Not sure about people serving time. Rehabilitation should be the goal of incarceration.

The first impact the strike will have is to raise awareness of prison conditions.  Hopefully Trump will tweet something nasty and inhumane, and it will be covered on the news. Could be a wedge issue in the upcoming elections, though.

I don't have a problem with prison labor per se, but I do have a problem with others profiting off it, and perhaps driving up the inmate count.
And I agree with Benton--way too many people in prison for non-violent, especially drug-related crimes.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-21-2018, 04:28 AM)Dill Wrote: I support most of the demands.  Ex felons should be able to vote. Not sure about people serving time. Rehabilitation should be the goal of incarceration.

The first impact the strike will have is to raise awareness of prison conditions.  Hopefully Trump will tweet something nasty and inhumane, and it will be covered on the news. Could be a wedge issue in the upcoming elections, though.

I don't have a problem with prison labor per se, but I do have a problem with others profiting off it, and perhaps driving up the inmate count.
And I agree with Benton--way too many people in prison for non-violent, especially drug-related crimes.

I sort of agree, but there's simply some people I am not sure I want to have the same amount of say as me when it comes to deciding a county/state/country's future.

I mean, do you really want a convicted child pornographer to have the same vote/voting power as you? Or do you want Bernie Madoff to be able to have an equal say as you on any matters that involve money? That white nationalist who murdered the girl with his car in Charlottesville would get the same vote as you when it comes to who should lead our country.

In the end, I don't really see a good way to split the ones you don't want from the pack.

- - - - - - - -

As for the rest of your post, I think rehabilitation only works for those who want it, which isn't as much as an optimist might like to believe. If you found it morally easy to rob a bank/mug a person/rape a person/whatever, I don't think there's a whole lot you can do. It would work for the people who had like crimes of passion, or driven to sudden impulses, but there's also just a lot of naturally bad people out there. You also can't cure stupid.

I think this strike will probably have the exact same effect as the 2016 one that I feel like the vast majority of the country didn't knew happened. Nothing. Regular folk have enough crap to worry about in their own lives to worry about a carjacker/drug dealer/fraudster/manslaughterer/etc complaining about things.

I do agree that prison labor shouldn't be a for-profit venture, but I fully agree that prison labor should be a thing to offset the cost of their incarceration. I also think that some prisons are already too soft with TVs, gyms, libraries, multiple hot meals a day, free education, hot water, fresh laundry... those are things that not even everyone who isn't in prison get to enjoy.

[CKwi88]

In an ideal world where the justice system treats everyone equitably I would have no problem with labor in prison. However, people are hardly treated equitably so it really does become modern day slavery that disproportionately affects minorities.

Labor while incarcerated shouldn't be obligatory and an inmate should not be punished for choosing not to work. Labor should be optional with an incentive to work.

[Dill]

(08-21-2018, 08:03 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I sort of agree, but there's simply some people I am not sure I want to have the same amount of say as me when it comes to deciding a county/state/country's future.

I mean, do you really want a convicted child pornographer to have the same vote/voting power as you? Or do you want Bernie Madoff to be able to have an equal say as you on any matters that involve money? That white nationalist who murdered the girl with his car in Charlottesville would get the same vote as you when it comes to who should lead our country.

In the end, I don't really see a good way to split the ones you don't want from the pack.

- - - - - - - -

As for the rest of your post, I think rehabilitation only works for those who want it, which isn't as much as an optimist might like to believe. If you found it morally easy to rob a bank/mug a person/rape a person/whatever, I don't think there's a whole lot you can do. It would work for the people who had like crimes of passion, or driven to sudden impulses, but there's also just a lot of naturally bad people out there. You also can't cure stupid.

I think this strike will probably have the exact same effect as the 2016 one that I feel like the vast majority of the country didn't knew happened. Nothing. Regular folk have enough crap to worry about in their own lives to worry about a carjacker/drug dealer/fraudster/manslaughterer/etc complaining about things.

I do agree that prison labor shouldn't be a for-profit venture, but I fully agree that prison labor should be a thing to offset the cost of their incarceration. I also think that some prisons are already too soft with TVs, gyms, libraries, multiple hot meals a day, free education, hot water, fresh laundry... those are things that not even everyone who isn't in prison get to enjoy.

If people have done their time, then I am fine with them voting--especially if we are talking about large groups of people, hundreds of thousands in some states. Permanently having no say in politics is a worse outcome than Madoff getting a vote.  I am for this, even though it might increase the number of Trump voters out there substantially.

I think that since the mid 1980s, much prison education has been rolled back--the one thing that most worked against recidivism.  I am not aware of any "soft" prisons.  Tvs and gyms help control inmates. Libraries offer hope and education.  There may be people who are beyond help, but I wouldn't assume the majority can't learn to mend their ways in prison, if the have the opportunity and some hope of a real start once they get out of prison.  Closing libraries and reducing education discourages any change in behavior.

The big problem is no whether prisoners have tvs or the vote, so much as the legal apparatus which puts so many in prison.  Why should a country with a quarter of the population of China have double the number of prisoners as China?  

[Benton]

(08-21-2018, 09:22 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: In an ideal world where the justice system treats everyone equitably I would have no problem with labor in prison. However, people are hardly treated equitably so it really does become modern day slavery that disproportionately affects minorities.

Labor while incarcerated shouldn't be obligatory and an inmate should not be punished for choosing not to work. Labor should be optional with an incentive to work.

It may be different in different areas, but I know all our area jails on the one prison that has labor (the max security does not have that option) rely on voluntary labor. There doesn't seem to be any hesitation on the inmates part, as all of the agencies have waiting lists. And it usually is used to improve population behavior. 

Which reminds me, I just fibbed. The max security does have some outside labor, but it's very limited. There is a program where they clean up old cemeteries. It sounds like a bad idea — convicted murderers and other guys doing life trained to use chainsaws, hand saws and sledgehammers — but it's a good program. One guy I interviewed said he was getting out next year and wanted to try and turn what he'd learned into a business with his son.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-21-2018, 02:27 PM)Dill Wrote: If people have done their time, then I am fine with them voting--especially if we are talking about large groups of people, hundreds of thousands in some states. Permanently having no say in politics is a worse outcome than Madoff getting a vote.  I am for this, even though it might increase the number of Trump voters out there substantially.

I think that since the mid 1980s, much prison education has been rolled back--the one thing that most worked against recidivism.  I am not aware of any "soft" prisons.  Tvs and gyms help control inmates. Libraries offer hope and education.  There may be people who are beyond help, but I wouldn't assume the majority can't learn to mend their ways in prison, if the have the opportunity and some hope of a real start once they get out of prison.  Closing libraries and reducing education discourages any change in behavior.

The big problem is no whether prisoners have tvs or the vote, so much as the legal apparatus which puts so many in prison.  Why should a country with a quarter of the population of China have double the number of prisoners as China?  

'Cause we don't kill all ours.  

Incidentally, there is only one state with rehabilitation in the title of their correctional system.  Any guesses?

[Belsnickel]

(08-21-2018, 03:07 PM)michaelsean Wrote: 'Cause we don't kill all ours.  

Incidentally, there is only one state with rehabilitation in the title of their correctional system.  Any guesses?

Texas.

[Millhouse]

One of the demands was to eliminate 'life without parole' sentences. There are certain prisoners that shouldn't get a sentence like that, but there are others that crossed all sorts of lines to where they never should have the chance to be in society again. If they want redemption, then pray and hope there is a God that will listen and forgive them.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/us-inmates-stage-nationwide-prison-labor-strike-over-modern-slavery/ar-BBMd22U

[*michaelsean*]

(08-21-2018, 04:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: One of the demands was to eliminate 'life without parole' sentences. There are certain prisoners that shouldn't get a sentence like that, but there are others that crossed all sorts of lines to where they never should have the chance to be in society again. If they want redemption, then pray and hope there is a God that will listen and forgive them.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/us-inmates-stage-nationwide-prison-labor-strike-over-modern-slavery/ar-BBMd22U

Conditions are one thing, sentencing no.   Whether society thinks you should get a second chance is one thing, but murdering people and thinking you have a right to give it another go is ridiculous.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-21-2018, 04:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: One of the demands was to eliminate 'life without parole' sentences. There are certain prisoners that shouldn't get a sentence like that, but there are others that crossed all sorts of lines to where they never should have the chance to be in society again. If they want redemption, then pray and hope there is a God that will listen and forgive them.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/us-inmates-stage-nationwide-prison-labor-strike-over-modern-slavery/ar-BBMd22U

I think that parole should always be an option, and I say that as someone in a state where parole doesn't exist at all. I understand what you're saying, but I feel like the process of applying for parole will weed those sorts of things out. If an inmate isn't going to reform, then no parole. But that won't be the same story for everyone.

[Millhouse]

(08-21-2018, 04:47 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Conditions are one thing, sentencing no. Whether society thinks you should get a second chance is one thing, but murdering people and thinking you have a right to give it another go is ridiculous.

(08-21-2018, 04:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think that parole should always be an option, and I say that as someone in a state where parole doesn't exist at all. I understand what you're saying, but I feel like the process of applying for parole will weed those sorts of things out. If an inmate isn't going to reform, then no parole. But that won't be the same story for everyone.

I am against the chance at parole for ones such as mass murderers to serial killers to child rapists that then murder them. The extreme heinous killers out there. Those were ones I was referring to. Other murderers, like Red from Shawshank, I dont have any problem with a chance to reform.

[*michaelsean*]

"Life without parole accomplishes the same thing as the death penalty." Not like we didn't see this coming.

[Belsnickel]

(08-21-2018, 05:06 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I am against the chance at parole for ones such as mass murderers to serial killers to child rapists that then murder them. The extreme heinous killers out there. Those were ones I was referring to. Other murderers, like Red from Shawshank, I dont have any problem with a chance to reform.

I could make an argument that anyone in that category should be in a place where they receive mental health treatment.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-21-2018, 05:43 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I could make an argument that anyone in that category should be in a place where they receive mental health treatment.

Please don’t

[Dill]

(08-21-2018, 03:07 PM)michaelsean Wrote: 'Cause we don't kill all ours.  

Incidentally, there is only one state with rehabilitation in the title of their correctional system.  Any guesses?

California does for sure.