Prisoner Strikes

[Dill]

(08-21-2018, 03:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Texas.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-21-2018, 06:35 PM)Dill Wrote: California does for sure.

Then it’s fairly new I believe because as of a few years ago only Ohio did. Or the History Channel lied to me.

[Dill]

(08-21-2018, 06:56 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Then it’s fairly new I believe because as of a few years ago only Ohio did. Or the History Channel lied to me.

https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/

Who are you going to trust--me or the history channel?

[*michaelsean*]

(08-21-2018, 07:00 PM)Dill Wrote: https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/

Who are you going to trust--me or the history channel?

I know it says it now after you said it. (I swear I didn’t double check). I’m just wondering if it was in the name a few years ago or if it’s a recent addition.

[Belsnickel]

(08-21-2018, 06:39 PM)Dill Wrote:

I'm glad someone got my joke.

[Dill]

(08-21-2018, 07:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I know it says it now after you said it.  (I swear I didn’t double check). I’m just wondering if it was in the name a few years ago or if it’s a recent addition.

It was reorganized under Schwarzenegger back in 2005. Not sure but "Rehabilitation" may have been added then, as people were recognizing what a failure the "three strikes" policy was and turning back to rehabilitating rather than just punishing. It think it was just the "California Department of Corrections" back in the 80s.

[Dill]

(08-21-2018, 07:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm glad someone got my joke.

LOL I was 80% sure that was intentional.  

[*bfine32*]

(08-21-2018, 07:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm glad someone got my joke.

I didn't feel it was something to joke about, It just isn't my cup of tea.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-21-2018, 02:27 PM)Dill Wrote: If people have done their time, then I am fine with them voting--especially if we are talking about large groups of people, hundreds of thousands in some states. Permanently having no say in politics is a worse outcome than Madoff getting a vote.  I am for this, even though it might increase the number of Trump voters out there substantially.

I think that since the mid 1980s, much prison education has been rolled back--the one thing that most worked against recidivism.  I am not aware of any "soft" prisons.  Tvs and gyms help control inmates. Libraries offer hope and education.  There may be people who are beyond help, but I wouldn't assume the majority can't learn to mend their ways in prison, if the have the opportunity and some hope of a real start once they get out of prison.  Closing libraries and reducing education discourages any change in behavior.

The big problem is no whether prisoners have tvs or the vote, so much as the legal apparatus which puts so many in prison.  Why should a country with a quarter of the population of China have double the number of prisoners as China?  

How do you figure?

- - - - - - - - - - - -

China just makes whole families quietly vanish instead, and also just kill a lot of people openly, too. Much better, you're right.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-considers-scrapping-death-penalty-for-several-crimes/

Quote:China may scrap the death penalty for nine out of 55 crimes, including counterfeiting and smuggling nuclear materials, state media said Monday.

China executes more people every year than the rest of the world combined, according to Dui Hua, a U.S.-based rights group that focuses on legal justice.

Quote:The crimes include illegal fund raising, counterfeiting, smuggling counterfeit currency, organizing prostitution, forcing others to engage in prostitution, and smuggling weapons, ammunition and nuclear materials. They also include two military-related crimes - obstructing others from performing military duties and fabricating rumors to confuse the public during war time.

China currently has 55 crimes that are punishable by death, including murder, burglary, rape and drug-related offenses. Some economic crimes, such as embezzlement and taking bribes, are also punishable by death, although Chinese courts rarely hand out capital punishment for them.

So yes, hold up China as a beacon of inspiration as they murder all their smugglers, counterfeiters, rapists, burglars, drug dealers, embezzelers, and corrupt folk.

I imagine if you murdered all of them in the US and then all the future criminals got that message, our prison population would be much lower too.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Sure, end prison labor. Just make sure you charge each inmate for the full cost of their incarceration. Why should the taxpayers foot the bill for criminals who cause untold damage to the general populace?

[Belsnickel]

(08-21-2018, 10:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure, end prison labor. Just make sure you charge each inmate for the full cost of their incarceration. Why should the taxpayers foot the bill for criminals who cause untold damage to the general populace?

I think the argument is that they should be paid a decent wage for their labor, not that it should be ended entirely.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-22-2018, 09:07 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think the argument is that they should be paid a decent wage for their labor, not that it should be ended entirely.

Which I'd be fine with if it included them paying the costs of their incarceration.

[Belsnickel]

(08-22-2018, 11:19 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Which I'd be fine with if it included them paying the costs of their incarceration.

Some places they are already billed an amount for their incarceration. It happens around here.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-22-2018, 11:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Some places they are already billed an amount for their incarceration. It happens around here.

Is it the entire amount?  I doubt that is the case.  If they're charged the entire amount, including additionals such as medical care, then they can earn minimum wage doing whatever job the prison assigns them, no problem.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-22-2018, 11:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Some places they are already billed an amount for their incarceration. It happens around here.

Where there's an untapped fountain of wealth.

[*Nately120*]

(08-21-2018, 08:03 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I sort of agree, but there's simply some people I am not sure I want to have the same amount of say as me when it comes to deciding a county/state/country's future.

Hell, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that my vote would suddenly matter more if I moved to Idaho.

[Dill]

(08-21-2018, 10:18 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: How do you figure?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
China just makes whole families quietly vanish instead, and also just kill a lot of people openly, too. Much better, you're right.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-considers-scrapping-death-penalty-for-several-crimes/

So yes, hold up China as a beacon of inspiration as they murder all their smugglers, counterfeiters, rapists, burglars, drug dealers, embezzelers, and corrupt folk.

I imagine if you murdered all of them in the US and then all the future criminals got that message, our prison population would be much lower too.

Actually, Len, I was not holding up China as a "beacon of inspiration."  I was commenting on the outsized prison population in the U.S.

China "makes whole families vanish" because their authoritarian society embraces the death penalty.  I do not.  The U.S. does not have a larger prison population than China because they don't "murder all their smugglers, counterfeiters, rapists," etc.

The U.S. is the largest Western democracy, 4-5 times larger than the UK or France or Germany. But if we compare prison populations proportionally, the UK for example, with a population of  63,000,000, had about 80,000 in its prisons in 2014.  Texas alone, with a population of 28,000,000, less than half to total UK population, had 143,000 prisoners in 2016.  I could make comparisons between other states and countries as well, like Germany to Florida.

This difference in incarceration rates between the U.S. and other Western democracies does not arise because the other democracies "murder" down their prison populations to lower levels than the U.S. as you say China does.  So I'd like to suggest that there are other ways of reducing prison populations, starting with changes in law and education.

[Belsnickel]

(08-22-2018, 12:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Is it the entire amount?  I doubt that is the case.  If they're charged the entire amount, including additionals such as medical care, then they can earn minimum wage doing whatever job the prison assigns them, no problem.

It's not the entire amount, bu tit's not insignificant, either.

(08-22-2018, 12:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Where there's an untapped fountain of wealth.

You know it.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-22-2018, 06:52 PM)Dill Wrote: Actually, Len, I was not holding up China as a "beacon of inspiration."  I was commenting on the outsized prison population in the U.S.

China "makes whole families vanish" because their authoritarian society embraces the death penalty.  I do not.  The U.S. does not have a larger prison population than China because they don't "murder all their smugglers, counterfeiters, rapists," etc.

The U.S. is the largest Western democracy, 4-5 times larger than the UK or France or Germany. But if we compare prison populations proportionally, the UK for example, with a population of  63,000,000, had about 80,000 in its prisons in 2014.  Texas alone, with a population of 28,000,000, less than half to total UK population, had 143,000 prisoners in 2016.  I could make comparisons between other states and countries as well, like Germany to Florida.

This difference in incarceration rates between the U.S. and other Western democracies does not arise because the other democracies "murder" down their prison populations to lower levels than the U.S. as you say China does.  So I'd like to suggest that there are other ways of reducing prison populations, starting with changes in law and education.

You live in the UK or France or Germany, and you might not ever need to own a car or drive. Between public transportation, walking, and cabs, you're pretty set. That alone eliminates a lot of the people in jail for driving without a license, driving with expired tags, DUIs, hit-and-runs, excessive speeding, unpaid parking tickets, etc. Meanwhile outside of a very few specific locations, a car is vital in the US. Even for teenagers. (US has 910 vehicles per 1,000 people... France 578, Germany 572, UK 519... numbers don't include motorcycles.)

Then you figure the age there is lower for drinking, so remove a decent amount of people in the US busted for underage drinking or possession by a minor.... there is no heroine epidemic over there. There was no meth problem there either. They don't seem to have massive amounts of drugs being smuggled in from China and Mexico/Central America. (Arresting people for weed sure doesn't help.)

Do UK/France/Germany have their version of the Mexican Cartels or African American gang violence? I legitimately have no idea.



Either way, there's a lot of things that add up that I just don't think those other countries have to deal with or worry about.

[Dill]

(08-22-2018, 07:28 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You live in the UK or France or Germany, and you might not ever need to own a car or drive. Between public transportation, walking, and cabs, you're pretty set. That alone eliminates a lot of the people in jail for driving without a license, driving with expired tags, DUIs, hit-and-runs, excessive speeding, unpaid parking tickets, etc. Meanwhile outside of a very few specific locations, a car is vital in the US. Even for teenagers. (US has 910 vehicles per 1,000 people... France 578, Germany 572, UK 519... numbers don't include motorcycles.)

Then you figure the age there is lower for drinking, so remove a decent amount of people in the US busted for underage drinking or possession by a minor.... there is no heroine epidemic over there. There was no meth problem there either. They don't seem to have massive amounts of drugs being smuggled in from China and Mexico/Central America. (Arresting people for weed sure doesn't help.)

Do UK/France/Germany have their version of the Mexican Cartels or African American gang violence? I legitimately have no idea.

Either way, there's a lot of things that add up that I just don't think those other countries have to deal with or worry about.

You make an interesting argument about the ratio of auto ownership. But having myself owned and driven cars in both in the UK and Germany, I am skeptical that fewer drivers = lower crime and prison population.  I don't think many teenagers in the US go to prison for underage drinking.
Interesting that we make a big deal about drinking but give most anyone a license to drive, while in Europe drinking is no big deal, but a driver's license requires some serious driver training. In Germany the minimum age for driving is 18, you have to take a first aid course and spend 1500 bucks on a driving school, including 14 hrs in the classroom (according to my recent info).

There is a drug problem in Europe, but less than the US, and nothing really like the US gang problem.

This turns us back to other factors, like the omnipresence of guns in the US and similar cultural factors. None of the Western European countries naturalized millions of black former slaves within their borders back in the 19th century, mostly in states where their former owners still controlled the government and spent generations denying them equality. A lot of inequity in laws and incareration rates are related to that legacy.

You make an interesting point about the US proximity to Mexico--the only place in the world where a first and third world country share a border. Can't say that is not unrelated to crime.