Pro-Choice People: Babies Feel Excruciating Pain During Abortions

[Belsnickel]

(12-26-2018, 08:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So just that we're clear: an employer can fire an employee simply being pregnant? 

In some circumstances, yes. It happens in academia on a regular basis.

[fredtoast]

(12-26-2018, 08:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So just that we're clear: an employer can fire an employee simply being pregnant? 

Not if she can still do her job while pregnant.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 08:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's a big difference. At 8 weeks, a fetus has the beginnings of the architecture that allow pain sensations to be transmitted. That is what the science tells us. The degree to which a fetus feels pain at 8 weeks is not known but we know that the ability to feel pain completely is not developed until much later, at 20 weeks. Since intense pain sensations require a more developed architecture within the nervous system, it is highly unlikely that a fetus at 8 weeks is able to feel excruciating pain. That would happen sometime later in the development. Because of this, the continued use of the word excruciating is misleading, if not outright lying, with the intent to make an argument to emotion.

At what week does the pain become excruciating, just so someone is not outright lying? 

Seems like we're delving into semantics. Pain is pain and the level in which it is felt is up to the individual.  You have no idea the level of pain felt by an 8 week old. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 08:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: In some circumstances, yes. It happens in academia on a regular basis.

Seems like that would have to be something written in a contract. 

[fredtoast]

(12-26-2018, 07:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Unless of course, if it's a mother solely making a choice about an unborn child created by a mutually agreed union

The woman is not making a decision about another individuals body because there is no other individual.  The fetus is still just a part of the womans body until it can survive on its own.

[Belsnickel]

(12-26-2018, 08:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: At what week does the pain become excruciating, just so someone is not outright lying? 

Seems like we're delving into semantics. Pain is pain and the level in which it is felt is up to the individual.  You have no idea the level of pain felt by an 8 week old. 

Of course it's semantics. When someone chooses to use a word in an appeal to emotion, semantics is always going to come into play. And you're exactly correct that I don't know the level of pain of an 8 week old, or fetus at 8 weeks of development (two different things after all). But that is the point here. That is not known, so continuing to state that they feel excruciating pain with no actual evidence to back it up shouldn't be going on. That has been my point all along. Brad has been misrepresenting the information by stating that.

(12-26-2018, 08:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Seems like that would have to be something written in a contract. 

Nope. What they do is they don't renew a contract when an instructor gets pregnant.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 08:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Of course it's semantics. When someone chooses to use a word in an appeal to emotion, semantics is always going to come into play. And you're exactly correct that I don't know the level of pain of an 8 week old, or fetus at 8 weeks of development (two different things after all). But that is the point here. That is not known, so continuing to state that they feel excruciating pain with no actual evidence to back it up shouldn't be going on. That has been my point all along. Brad has been misrepresenting the information by stating that.


Nope. What they do is they don't renew a contract when an instructor gets pregnant.

I guess i just don't see the difference the word excruciating makes in the equation; therefore, it's not something I would not focus on. The word pain would get more my focus.

And they make it known that the reason her contract is not renewed is because she is pregnant? Now that seems outrageous. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 08:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The woman is not making a decision about another individuals body because there is no other individual.  The fetus is still just a part of the womans body until it can survive on its own.

There is another body; unfortunately, it requires the mother's support to mature. So she is most definitely making the choice for another's body.

You just threw the word individual in there to try to stiffen your point. 

[fredtoast]

(12-26-2018, 08:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There is another body; unfortunately, it requires the mother's support to mature. So she is most definitely making the choice for another's body.

You just threw the word individual in there to try to stiffen your point. 

I use the word "individual" because it is required when discussing the law of "individual rights".

But you seem to be going in circles because just a minute ago you were fine with killing the fetus as long as the father was the one who wanted to.

I don't even know what you really mean anymore.

[GMDino]

(12-26-2018, 08:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I use the word "individual" because it is required when discussing the law of "individual rights".

But you seem to be going in circles because just a minute ago you were fine with killing the fetus as long as the father was the one who wanted to.

I don't even know what you really mean anymore.

Don't worry Fred...he "knows".  He doesn't need to be told, or to read.  He "knows".

[Belsnickel]

(12-26-2018, 08:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I guess i just don't see the difference the word excruciating makes in the equation; therefore, it's not something I would not focus on. The word pain would get more my focus.

I think I am beginning to see the root of the problem with you misrepresenting arguments on a regular basis.

(12-26-2018, 08:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And they make it known that the reason her contract is not renewed is because she is pregnant? Now that seems outrageous. 

When it has become a pattern with instructors that have had no issues in their employment but have not had their contracts renewed after the university finds out they are pregnant, it doesn't need to be stated explicitly. It's a serious trend in higher ed.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 08:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I use the word "individual" because it is required when discussing the law of "individual rights".

But you seem to be going in circles because just a minute ago you were fine with killing the fetus as long as the father was the one who wanted to.

I don't even know what you really mean anymore.

I know exactly what I mean and what I've said:

I deplore abortion and think those that condone/ participate in it will be held to answer.

I realize we live in a secular world and cannot/ would not contest a secular law that allows for abortion in a situation where no one wants to accept responsibility for the child. I will pray for them and will freely answer for this when called upon.

I cannot/ will not answer for supporting killing a child that one of the parents wants; regardless how inconvenient it is for the other parent.

I have never been Ok with killing a child simply because the father wants it killed. 

But Dino has your back so you've got that going for you.  

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 09:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think I am beginning to see the root of the problem with you misrepresenting arguments on a regular basis.


When it has become a pattern with instructors that have had no issues in their employment but have not had their contracts renewed after the university finds out they are pregnant, it doesn't need to be stated explicitly. It's a serious trend in higher ed.

Not sure what I'm misrepresenting or how it's the root problem. You seemed to have issue with the word excruciating; I simply felt the word pain was more relevant. Is perhaps your cognitive dissonance a root problem? 

So a teacher cannot legally have her contract not renewed simply by being pregnant. Unethical business practices are a serious issue where ever they occur. 

[Belsnickel]

(12-26-2018, 09:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So a teacher cannot legally have her contract not renewed simply by being pregnant. Unethical business practices are a serious issue where ever they occur. 

Agreed. It is an illegal and unethical practice. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to prove to the standards of the EEOC, so it happens on a regular basis.

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 07:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: There wasn't?



Seems like pretty definitive confirmation to me that trumps the unscientific opinion of someone that doesn't have a medical background but does have a bias opinion that's not based on science.

Matt already said this, but at no point in the quote you supplied was it said that a fetus feels excruciating pain. This is what happens when people who do not have a scientific background but have a bias opinion that's not based on science write articles on websites with no credibility. 

The only part of the article that suggested that a fetus feels excruciating pain was the title. The subsequent article includes quotes where medical experts confirm that they do not actually know what type of pain a fetus may experience. 

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 08:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: At what week does the pain become excruciating, just so someone is not outright lying? 

Seems like we're delving into semantics. Pain is pain and the level in which it is felt is up to the individual.  You have no idea the level of pain felt by an 8 week old. 

I like how instead of questioning the OP's baseless argument, you've been demanding answers and proof from the person who pointed out that the OP didn't provide proof for their argument.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 09:41 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I like how instead of questioning the OP's baseless argument, you've been demanding answers and proof from the person who pointed out that the OP didn't provide proof for their argument.

It's almost like I focused on the word pain than excruciating. 

I've not demanded anything; just simply asked and not asserted someone was wrong. Do you have any idea at what week the pain becomes excruciating? 

I don't find it to be baseless; as he pointed to the conditions set to feel pain can begin as early as 8 weeks. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-26-2018, 09:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Matt already said this, but at no point in the quote you supplied was it said that a fetus feels excruciating pain. This is what happens when people who do not have a scientific background but have a bias opinion that's not based on science write articles on websites with no credibility. 

The only part of the article that suggested that a fetus feels excruciating pain was the title. The subsequent article includes quotes where medical experts confirm that they do not actually know what type of pain a fetus may experience. 

I think the whole "excruciating" word is being over used. it's another line in the sand to me. Something that is hard to actually prove.

We all know the baby can feel pain the moment it is able to react whether voluntary or involuntary.

It's not like we can ask the fetus on a scale of 0-10 to tell us how much pain they are in. They are either able to feel it or not.

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 09:51 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I think the whole "excruciating" word is being over used. it's another line in the sand to me. Something that is hard to actually prove.

We all know the baby can feel pain the moment it is able to react whether voluntary or involuntary.

It's not like we can ask the fetus on a scale of 0-10 to tell us how much pain they are in. They are either able to feel it or not.

I didn't write the article, create the thread, make the argument, ask people how they can disagree with the argument, and then repeatedly bring up the argument. 

I just pointed out that the link didn't provide any evidence. I provided a philosophical argument (and the counter argument to it) that did not take the false premise into account. I'm happy to discuss that.

[*bfine32*]

Folks are fickle. I've been told it doesn't matter what the title of an article is, but more so the content of the article and I've been told by the same folks that the title is more relevant than the content.