Pro-Choice People: Babies Feel Excruciating Pain During Abortions

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 11:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm actually going with your first reply to me when you said the claim was baseless (#152)

If someone states a child feels excruciating pain and provides a link that shows they experience pain then the argument is not baseless (your retort to me). Embellished? Perhaps. Baseless? No.

I read the words you typed. 

I appreciate your stance on rights, but it doesn't change your reply directly to me. 

I appreciate your ability to bullshit your way through any topic without ever addressing what anyone is discussing.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 12:07 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I appreciate your ability to bullshit your way through any topic without ever addressing what anyone is discussing.

Except I pointed directly to the post (#152) that I was referring to. Not sure how that equals "without ever addressing what anyone is discussing". 

[BmorePat87]

(12-27-2018, 12:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Except I pointed directly to the post (#152) that I was referring to. Not sure how that equals "without ever addressing what anyone is discussing". 

Post 152 is you responding to Fred.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 12:36 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Post 152 is you responding to Fred.

EDIT:

156. Doesn't really change the point. 

[BmorePat87]

(12-27-2018, 12:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: EDIT:

156. Doesn't really change the point. 

Me commenting on your pathetic posting habits doesn't change the scope of my response to Brad.

[BFritz21]

(12-27-2018, 12:06 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: And from that alone we can't say anything for certainty, hence why going with excruciating pain isn't a great argument.

This medical expert says that pain the baby can feel pain because the neural circuitry is in place, so you can't ask a baby, but it seems pretty evident that being ripped limb from limb is pretty painful to a baby.

Especially since I'd have to think that babies still in the womb would be more sensitive to pain than adults or even children once they are born.

Are you seriously basing your argument here off of "we can't ask the baby, so we don't know if being ripped limb from limb is that painful"?

(12-27-2018, 12:06 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: How do you know that for a fact? The fact that they were willing to proclaim that a fetus can feel excruciating pain from what they posted makes me believe they have a flawed understanding of what they read.

What are you basing that off of?  What gives you a better understanding of Dr Condic's opinion than theirs?  You don't think a baby being ripped limb from limb is excruciatingly painful?

An adult being ripped limb from limb would be excruciatingly painful, but you think a baby still in the womb can tolerate the pain more than an adult?

(12-27-2018, 12:06 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Again, I am going to challenge the informed opinion part of this post.

Challenge all you want, but you're the one making up pretty outrageous claims to fit your agenda.

[Belsnickel]

(12-27-2018, 10:05 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: This medical expert says that pain the baby can feel pain because the neural circuitry is in place, so you can't ask a baby, but it seems pretty evident that being ripped limb from limb is pretty painful to a baby.

Especially since I'd have to think that babies still in the womb would be more sensitive to pain than adults or even children once they are born.

Are you seriously basing your argument here off of "we can't ask the baby, so we don't know if being ripped limb from limb is that painful"?





What are you basing that off of?  What gives you a better understanding of Dr Condic's opinion than theirs?  You don't think a baby being ripped limb from limb is excruciatingly painful?

An adult being ripped limb from limb would be excruciatingly painful, but you think a baby still in the womb can tolerate the pain more than an adult?


Challenge all you want, but you're the one making up pretty outrageous claims to fit your agenda.

Here's the issue: "Excruciating" is not measurable, it is subjective, and there is no way to determine that the neural architecture that is in place at 8 weeks of development is actually developed enough to sense variability in pain. we know the neural architecture is there in the CNS, but what about in the peripheral? Just because the network is in place to sense pain doesn't mean that it is in place throughout the fetus. Hell, even if the architecture is in place doesn't mean that the neurotransmitters are actually moving through the network.

The claims being made are by you and the article you posted, not by myself or Pat. Pat and I are literally saying that the evidence is not firm enough to make the claims you are making. That's it. There has not been enough evidence presented to defend your claims in an objective way.

[BFritz21]

(12-27-2018, 11:57 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here's the issue: "Excruciating" is not measurable, it is subjective, and there is no way to determine that the neural architecture that is in place at 8 weeks of development is actually developed enough to sense variability in pain. we know the neural architecture is there in the CNS, but what about in the peripheral? Just because the network is in place to sense pain doesn't mean that it is in place throughout the fetus. Hell, even if the architecture is in place doesn't mean that the neurotransmitters are actually moving through the network.

The claims being made are by you and the article you posted, not by myself or Pat. Pat and I are literally saying that the evidence is not firm enough to make the claims you are making. That's it. There has not been enough evidence presented to defend your claims in an objective way.

Wow.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 05:07 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Me commenting on your pathetic posting habits doesn't change the scope of my response to Brad.

I obviously made the mistake of responding to a post you addressed to me instead of Brad.

Your standard for assigning pathetic posting habits is peculiar at best.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 11:57 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here's the issue: "Excruciating" is not measurable, it is subjective, and there is no way to determine that the neural architecture that is in place at 8 weeks of development is actually developed enough to sense variability in pain. we know the neural architecture is there in the CNS, but what about in the peripheral? Just because the network is in place to sense pain doesn't mean that it is in place throughout the fetus. Hell, even if the architecture is in place doesn't mean that the neurotransmitters are actually moving through the network.

The claims being made are by you and the article you posted, not by myself or Pat. Pat and I are literally saying that the evidence is not firm enough to make the claims you are making. That's it. There has not been enough evidence presented to defend your claims in an objective way.

Actually Pat told me they were baseless and I pathetically challenged that notion. Do you agree the claims are baseless?

[Belsnickel]

(12-27-2018, 03:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Actually Pat told me they were baseless and I pathetically challenged that notion. Do you agree the claims are baseless?

The claim that a fetus at 8 weeks of development can feel excruciating pain? Yes. That claim is baseless.

[Belsnickel]

(12-27-2018, 02:29 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Wow.

I know. When faced with logical argumentation it can often be awe inspiring.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 02:29 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Wow.

it's a tactic often employed in the forum. You really cannot disagree with the general premise; find a minute point that you can dispute. It's an informal fallacy known as contextotomy.

By focusing on and disputing the use of the word excruciating the arguer can dismiss the broader point.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 03:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The claim that a fetus at 8 weeks of development can feel excruciating pain? Yes. That claim is baseless.

Okey Doke

[Belsnickel]

(12-27-2018, 03:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: it's a tactic often employed in the forum. You really cannot disagree with the general premise; find a minute point that you can dispute. It's an informal fallacy known as contextotomy.

By focusing on the word excruciating the arguer can dismiss the broader point.

Except that fallacy is about arguing something out of context. In this instance, I am actually looking at the context. The claim of the OP is that a fetus at 8 weeks of development can feel excruciating pain. There is no evidence being presented to support that.

However, the use of the word "excruciating", as well as continuing to use the term "baby" to refer to a fetus, is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad passiones. It isn't rooted in evidence or logic, but instead on emotion.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 03:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I know. When faced with logical argumentation it can often be awe inspiring.

I know I'm often in awe of the logical argumentation made in this forum. The awe can be excruciating at times. 

[GMDino]

(12-27-2018, 03:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: it's a tactic often employed in the forum. You really cannot disagree with the general premise; find a minute point that you can dispute. It's an informal fallacy known as contextotomy.

By focusing on and disputing the use of the word excruciating the arguer can dismiss the broader point.

And I bow to the master of it.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Ugh,
Irritating to see all of you arguing over a word. Nowhere in the OP's article does Dr Condric claim excruciating pain, only the ability to FEEL pain.

The Rightwing based website is the one trying to slip that word in to get more clicks. Like a left wing based website would do the same thing. Sensationalism.

At 8 weeks, the CNS and Nerves are there and functioning, Dr Condric is simply stating that the fetus has the ability to feel pain at 8 weeks and this is not a lie or subjective.

Here is the original study, where is shows 3d rendered models of the Embryo as it is developing inside and out.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30287-8

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 03:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Except that fallacy is about arguing something out of context. In this instance, I am actually looking at the context. The claim of the OP is that a fetus at 8 weeks of development can feel excruciating pain. There is no evidence being presented to support that.

However, the use of the word "excruciating", as well as continuing to use the term "baby" to refer to a fetus, is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad passiones. It isn't rooted in evidence or logic, but instead on emotion.

Some would ask what difference does the word excruciating make in the context of the argument. it's simply a variance of a straw man. You are arguing something that is not the point because you have been presented evidence that counters your position. We can compare Red Team Degrees if you wish.
 
As yourself this:

Would you argue if the premise was Babies a fetus feels pain as early as 8 weeks?  If you answer No. then you are on the way the realizing your argue fallacy.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 03:59 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ugh,
Irritating to see all of you arguing over a word. Nowhere in the OP's article does Dr Condric claim excruciating pain, only the ability to FEEL pain.

The Rightwing based website is the one trying to slip that word in to get more clicks. Like a left wing based website would do the same thing. Sensationalism.

At 8 weeks, the CNS and Nerves are there and functioning, Dr Condric is simply stating that the fetus has the ability to feel pain at 8 weeks and this  is not a lie or subjective.

Here is the original study, where is shows 3d rendered models of the Embryo as it is developing inside and out.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30287-8

This is one of those instances where the book cover is far more important than the content of the book. Pathetic.